Lucas

This has been my observation as well, that it seems to be the case "that the primary differences between the therapies are that they use slightly different metaphors and techniques to describe largely the same psychological processes and to encourage clients to practice relating to themselves in new ways characterized by the aforementioned attitudes."

Hello JamesP,I have some concerns. I hope you don't mind or find it out of place that I am choosing to respond. Both you and MMX have pointed out that this is "public," so I am choosing to respond as part of the public.Generally, I define abuse in terms of the violations of the NAP. So in terms of physical abuse, or for a preference for the existence of the state - it is easy to see how these might be instances of abuse. My question is what defines "abuse" on the board?In addition, the guidelines also encourage posters to exercise freedom of association: "Remember, if you insult someone's intelligence or integrity, but continue to debate with him, you are escalating for no reason whatsoever. If you truly believe that someone is dumb, or dishonest, it makes no sense to debate him." Given this guideline, it is not clear to me that Liberalismus should have continued responding to MMX's request.However, here are some of the instances that I believe Liberalismus may be referring to:Note that for reasons of space, and not wanting to spam the forum, I have omitted some text that seemed irrelevant (Emphasis added)Liberalismus identifies as transgender. Would it not follow that MMX is calling Liberalismus (someone who identifies as transgender) delusional?In another post: The above quote is an unsupported accusatory global claim. He states that transgender people do not scientifically study sex. He did not add a qualifier (e.g., "the transgender people I have met and had conversations with do not seem to have scientifically studied sex."). Instead he makes a unqualified, and unsupported, claim that is inclusive of every transgender person.In another post Liberalismus identifies as a woman: Even though it is clear that pronouns can be a sensitive issue for transgender individuals, MMX referred to Liberalismus as a male (in a response to EndTheUsurpation): I apologize for the double post, I had intended on combining the previous two.If MMX really believes that Liberalismus is delusional, why is he insisting that she continue to engage in a conversation with him? If Liberalismus realizes that MMX is indirectly asserting that she is delusional and directly referring to her as a "he," as is the case (as evidenced by the quotes above), why would she continue a dialogue with him?

Hello GrungeGuy, To be honest, I'm not actually sure how to respond to your post. I'm also not sure if what I say will adequately answer your questions. Through the perspective of IFS, your claim that "psychopathology is thought to occur as a result of a splitting-off from our awareness and our self-concept significant parts of our experience (thoughts, feelings, preferences, memories, etc.)" is accurate. However, I do not believe that this way of conceptualizing is particularly wide-spread belief in the field of psychology. Although, admittedly, some common themes of IFS can be found within other models. For example, Freud’s “id, ego, superego,” Jung’s “complexes,” Assagioli’s “sub-personalities” and now “schemata” in cognitive-behavioral approaches all seem to capture to something about this idea of multiplicity. It is sometimes evident in our daily language when we say things similar to “a part of me wants to, a part of me doesn’t.” But I am not quite sure what IFS therapy would look like with a transgender client. However, it is likely that attempts to change someones gender identity does more harm than good (ALGBTIC, 2009; Riley, 2012). You asked: "How would we know that an innate gender identity 'that may or may not match the sex that is found between one's legs' exists?" It seems to me to be the case that the very nature of 'identity' is not something that we prove to exist in the same way we can prove an Apple to exist. Because by definition, identity refers to one's own experience (or internal sense of self) I'm not sure what type of evidence you might find acceptable. Here is a rough draft of how we know gender identity and dysphoria to develop in children: I would also note that until children begin to master the capacity for operational thought (roughly between the ages of 5 – 7) they will tend to conflate sex and gender with surface expressions of gender role. And prior to operational thought, a child might think that merely wearing the clothes associated with boys will make one a boy, while the clothes or hairstyles associated with girls will make one a girl.

Hey GrungeGuy, I haven't met anyone (that I know of) that would claim that the brain and the body are not intimately linked together. You asked, "what does it mean to have an identity that involves your physical body and is incongruous with the reality of your body?" I'm not completely sure of the answer. The etiology of transgenderism is not that well understood. There is strong evidence that a genetic factor is one component in the development of a transgender identity (see previous posts). There is also no evidence in the literature to suggest that parents can influence the etiology of transgenderism. Most of the current relevant research has been referenced to in this thread. In addition, when you speak of "eye identity," there are other conditions which could fall into that category (e.g., Body integrity identity disorder [see Meyer-Bahlburg H.F. for further discussion as it relates to Gender Dysphoria]). But body integrity identity disorder is much less prevalent, much less research, and much less understood. I'm not sure what this means: "...the degree to which my body is incongruous with my identity is the degree to which I have had to cut myself off from my more spontaneous and integrated identity to gain the approval and avoid the abandonment of my parents." I believe I understand your confusion around Gender Identity. Here is another definition of Gender Identity. Let me know if it gives you a better understanding of the term. Gender Identity: “In essence, the brain and mind work to establish an inner sense of self as male, female, or other, based on body, on thoughts and feelings, and absorption of messages from the external world, a sense of self that may or not match the sex that is found between one’s legs.” (Ehrensaft, D., 2012, p. 339). The question for those in the helping profession (counselors, therapist, psychology, endocrinologist, surgeons, etc.) is how can we use the knowledge in the current literature to meet the needs of our clients through voluntary interactions?

Emphasis added. I accidentally up-voted the above post rather than of down-voting it (for an endorsement of a violation of the Non-Aggression Principle via a preference for state enforced laws that would prohibit raising children on some caretakers, but not on others based upon their geographical location), among numerous other reasons. Edit: I notice my post has two down-votes. Please correct me if I am wrong and the statement I quoted is not a preference for a violation of the NAP. If it is not, I will apologize for making a false accusation.

Hello Frosty, I really appreciate your perspective and your tone. I think you explained your thoughts very well. Prior to reading your post I did not fully consider the important role that the physical body can have on identity development. There is very little that you said that I would disagree with in your previous post. But I do have some questions/observations. In an early post you wrote: "However I'm talking about the framing that is used by trans people, I almost always read that they're born with the wrong body and that the mentality, the brain part is the part that's 'right' - if that even really means anything, which I'm not convicned it does, how is one thing inherently right and the other thing inherently wrong? It would be more correct to say they feel mismatched." My assumption is that some transgender individuals often say they were born with the wrong body because it is easier for the lay person to understand. There's likely to be a wide range alternative words and phrases that could also describe the experience of being transgender. In other words, would it be accurate for a trans* person to say "I feel an incongruence between my mind (or brain) and body"? Probably. Liberalismus wrote, "to look at something from a purely biological perspective, and expect a human to live their life in accordance with it, is to dehumanise them." Perhaps it would have been more accurate, or a better metaphor, to say something along the lines of "if you look at something from a purely biological perspective, you will not understand the whole experience of what it is to be human." Does that make sense? However, I am not quite sure what you mean when you state "It's it dehumanizing to say that part of you is wrong so you'll just cut it off, treating parts of your body as simply accessories that don't belong" (Italics added). Perhaps that is your point, that the term dehumanizing is problematic unless it is properly defined. Idk. Liberalismus wrote: I wonder if you would disagree if I tweaked the last sentence: "The physical body (independent of the brain) doesn't have an identity. Identity is a psychological/neurological phenomenon that can be influenced by the physical body."

Hey Liberalismus, Like Nick, I want to thank you for being open and willing to share. With regards to the feminist opposition, your right. There does seem to be a history. In an article on the semantics of transgender identity, the author quotes Janice Raymond, a self-described cisgender lesbian feminist. Raymond was one of the first feminist to discuss transgenderism, she says: "All transsexuals rape women’s bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves. However, the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist violates women’s sexuality and spirit, as well. Rape, although it is usually done by force, can also be accomplished by deception." It is really hard to get an accurate rate of the occurrence of transgenderism across cultures. Many people might just not be "out" yet. Acceptability of being transgender can depend on where you live. Also, much of the current data on adults come from self-referred clients (who may be more likely to have resources). Another note, in case your curious, there has been a long history transgenderism cross-culturally (depending on how you define it). For example, see Two-Spirit, Fa'afafine, Kathoey, Hijra, and Muxe.

Hello EndTheUsurpation, I think you have some good questions. Among children, the ratio of boys to girls referred to gender clinics ranges from about 6:1 to 1:1 (Zucker & Lawrence, 2009; Riley, 2012). It is very often suggested that the higher ratio of boys to girls is likely influenced by the parents higher sensitivity to "sissy" behavior from boys as opposed to "tomboy" behavior from girls. In regards to FtM SRS data: Rachlin, K. (2002). Transgender individuals’ experience of psychotherapy. International Journal of Transgenderism, 6(1). Abstract: This research examined Transgender and Transsexual individuals' experiences in psychotherapy accross a range of treatment settings. Participants completed a survey that asked why they had sought mental health services and what their experience of treatment had been. The sample consisted of 93 participants (70 Female-to-Male and 23 Male-to-Female) who reported on 150 contacts with various psychotherapists. Results indicated that it was common to have seen a psychotherapist for general personal growth issues earlier in life and to later seek out a therapist who had experience in transgender work in order to focus on gender issues. Provider experience in working with gender issues was associated with a higher number of positive changes, higher patient satisfaction with progress in both general personal growth, and gender related issues. Individuals consistently expressed appreciation for therapists who were flexible in their treatment approach and demonstrated respect for the patient's gender identity. Here is quote from the article: "The incidence of postoperative regret is generally extremely low…. Less than 1% in FTM and less than 1-1.5% in MTF." Dhejne, C., Lichtenstein, P., Boman, M., Johansson, A. L., Långström, N., & Landén, M. (2011). Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: Cohort study in Sweden. PloS one, 6(2), e16885. Abstract. Context: The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective: To estimate mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons. Design: A population-based matched cohort study. Setting: Sweden, 1973-2003. Participants: All 324 sex-reassigned persons (191 male-to-females, 133 female-to-males) in Sweden, 1973–2003. Random population controls (10:1) were matched by birth year and birth sex or reassigned (final) sex, respectively. Main Outcome Measures: Hazard ratios (HR) with 95% confidence intervals (CI) for mortality and psychiatric morbidity were obtained with Cox regression models, which were adjusted for immigrant status and psychiatric morbidity prior to sex reassignment (adjusted HR [aHR]). Results: The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls. Conclusions: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group. Davis, S. A., & Meier, S. C. (2014). Effects of Testosterone Treatment and Chest Reconstruction Surgery on Mental Health and Sexuality in Female-To-Male Transgender People. International Journal of Sexual Health, 26:113–128, 2014. ABSTRACT. Objectives: This study examined the effects of testosterone treatment with or without chest reconstruction surgery (CRS) on mental health in female-to-male transgender people (FTMs). Methods: More than 200 FTMs completed a written survey including quantitative scales to measure symptoms of anxiety and depression, feelings of anger, and body dissatisfaction, as well as qualitative questions assessing shifts in sexuality after the initiation of testosterone. Fifty-seven percent of participants were taking testosterone and 40% had undergone CRS. Results: Cross-sectional analysis using a between-subjects multivariate analysis of variance showed that participants who were receiving testosterone endorsed fewer symptoms of anxiety and depression as well as less anger than the untreated group. Participants who had CRS in addition to testosterone reported less body dissatisfaction than both the testosterone-only or the untreated groups. Furthermore, participants who were injecting testosterone on a weekly basis showed significantly less anger compared with those injecting every other week. In qualitative reports, more than 50% of participants described increased sexual attraction to nontransgender men after taking testosterone. Conclusions: Results indicate that testosterone treatment in FTMs is associated with a positive effect on mental health on measures of depression, anxiety, and anger, while CRS appears to be more important for the alleviation of body dissatisfaction. The findings have particular relevance for counselors and health care providers serving FTM and gender-variant people considering medical gender transition. P.S. It is easier to create a "hole" than a "pole," which may help explain why fewer transgender males elect to go through with "bottom surgery." The technology is just not that great yet.

There is a difference between (a) an individual making a claim about one's own internal sense of self, and (b) and individual making an existential claim about the existence of a god. Those are amazing abilities you have, to ignore current scientific data based on your preference and to make unsubstantiated claims about the researchers of "literally every scientific study of transgendered-people." I do not feel as if we are getting anywhere. Consider this my withdrawal from future conversation with you.

My hope in posting the article (and referring to the section "The Recognition of Gender") was to expand the discussion on gender vs. sex and masculinity vs. femininity. I agree, even if Reimer's allegations are false, Money did some pretty questionable things. In regards to twins: Norman Spack (2013) wrote, "studies of identical twins, who share the transgender diagnosis far more than fraternal twins or siblings, suggest that genetics play a major role in the etiology of transgenderism" (p. 480).

Hello DaVinci, I hope you are well. I believe you will find the following article relevant, specifically the section "The Recognition of Gender." Bullough, V. L. (2000). Transgenderism and the concept of gender. International Journal of Transgenderism, 4(3), 97-03. I'll be curious to know your thoughts. In regards to your other comment: Riley (2012) conducted a review of the literature about gender variance in children available between 2001 and 2011. She identified 21 categories: Heritability (Bailey, Dunne, & Martin, 2000; Coolidge, et al., 2002); Comparison of demographics, social competence and behavioural problems in children with GIDC (Cohen-Kettenis, et al., 2003; Zucker, et al., 2002) Children’s beliefs about violating gender norms (Blakemore, 2003) The impact of gender identity on children’s psychological well-being (Yunger, Carver, & Perry, 2004) Genetic and environmental influences onatypical gender development in early childhood (Knafo, et al., 2005). Play styles of children with GIDC (Fridell, Owen-Anderson, Johnson, Bradley, & Zucker, 2006) Developmental processes in children with GIDC (Coates, 2006) Correlates of anxiety in children with GIDC (Wallien, van Goozen, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2007) Internalised body normalization in the early childhood of transgender children (Sullivan, 2009) Validity testing of the Gender Identity Interview for Children (Wallien, et al., 2009) Peer group status of children with gender dysphoria (Wallien, Veenstra, Kreukels, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2010) Association of GIDC in children with autism (de Vries, Noens, Cohen-Kettenis, van Berckelaer-Onnes, & Doreleijers, 2010; Preece & Corneil, 2011) Obsessional interests of children with GIDC (Zucker, 2011a) Concordance of GID in twins (Diamond, 2011a; Zucker, 2011b) Gender atypical behaviours in Chinese school children (Yu & Winter, 2011) Separation anxiety (Vasey, VanderLaan, Gothreau, & Bartlett, 2011) Inequalities in education (Robinson & Espelage, 2011) The use of language by professionals and authors when referring to gender-variant children (Ansara & Hegarty, 2011) The associations between peer victimisation and depressive feelings of gender-variant children aged 10-12 (Pouwelse, Bolman, & Lodewijkx, 2011). Case reports of gender-variant children have also appeared in the literature (Perrin, Smith, Davis, Spack, & Stein, 2010), with some describing the child’s social transition (Luecke, 2011; Olson, Stone, & Pearson, 2011; Saeger, 2006). Riley (2012) also identified research available from 2001 and 2011 concerning research on the parents of gender variant children. These are: The psychometric properties of the Parent-report Gender Identity questionnaire (Johnson, Bradley, Birkenfeld-Adams, Radzins Kuksis, & Maing, 2004) Comparisons of parent-reports on the Gender Identity Questionnaire for Children (Cohen-Kettenis, et al., 2006) Parents’ attitudes towards, responses to and acceptance of their children (D'Augelli, 2008; Grossman 26 & D'Augelli, 2006; Hegedus, 2009; Hill & Menvielle, 2009; Pearlman, 2006) Parents’ experiences and/or stories (Griffiths, 2002; Hill & Menvielle, 2009) Expressed emotion in mothers of boys with GIDC (Owen-Anderson, Bradley, & Zucker, 2010) Parents’ mental health ratings of their child (Hill, Menvielle, Sica, & Johnson, 2010). Using the similar literature review methodology as Riley (2012), I have identified new categories that have emerged in between 2011 and February 2014 concerning gender variance in children: Assessment techniques of gender variance in children (Zucker, & Wood, 2011) Attachment and shame in gender-nonconforming children and their families (Wallace & Russell, 2013) Click-evoked otoacoustic emissions in children and adolescents with early onset Gender Identity Disorder (GID) (Burke, Menks, Cohen-Kettenis, Klink, & Bakker, 2014) Descriptions of clinical programs designed to address the mental health needs of gender-variant children and their families (Menvielle, 2012; Zucker et al., 2012) Differences of sex development influence on clinical research about GID (Reiner & Reiner, 2012) Emerging gender therapy models (Ehrensaft, 2012) Factors associated with the desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria (Steensma, Biemond, de Beor, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2011; Steensma, McGuire, Kreukels, Beekman, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2013) Self-harming thoughts and behaviors in a child and adolescents with gender dysphoria (Skagerberg, Parkinson, & Carmichael, 2013) Self-perception of gender variant children (Balleur-van, Steensma, Kreukels, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2013) State child emotional abuse laws (Ford, 2011) Psychiatric co-occurrence in gender dysphoric adolescents (de Vries, Doreleijers, Steensma, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2011) I have not found any convincing reason in the contemporary scientific and peer reviewed journals to suggest that those who identify as transgender are inherently delusional or diseased. Lucas

You seem to already have the ability to recognize claims.

The claims I have made have about transgenderism were supported by numerous scientific articles. I have not seen any such citations from you that were specifically relevant to transgenderism.

You decided to focus on that term by quoting the definition I gave of natal sex.