Three
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Posts posted by Three
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Eliciting guilt can be achieved in a variety of different ways, with the success of such attempts often relying on how seasoned the abuser is. Other factors come into play too, for the seasoned abuser understands that knowing the target can be just as valuable as knowing the craft.
This is important since guilt is after all, to borrow Wiki’s definition, “ an experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.”
Without some knowledge of what the target values, an abuser is at best left engaging in the embarrassing spectacle of blindly throwing anything against the wall with the desperate hope that something will stick.
Sometimes the effect can be quite funny, as is the case with this "guilt trip fail" that I found on the internet.
Customer: “Hey, you guys sell fish food and supplies, but do you have any fish?”Me: “No, sorry sir, we don’t sell pets.”
Customer: “Where do they sell pets?”
Me: “A pet store?”
Customer: “Is there one of those near here?”
Me: “Uhm, I really don’t know.”
Customer: “Will you take me to it?”
Me: “… no?”
Customer: “Sam Walton would take me to it!”
Me: “Sam Walton is dead.”
It is for this reason that this common breed of toxic behavior is often found overpopulating the interactions of our most intimate relationships. The longer somebody is around you and the closer you are to the person then naturally, the more information a person has about you to blackmail.
So, other than requiring knowledge of the target, how does the manipulator get the target to believe that he’s violated his own standards as well as being fully responsible for that violation.?
As we saw with the disgruntled Sam Walton loving customer, you can’t just throw out the guilt-tripping phrases point-blank. Effective guilt tripping is a set-up that requires an elaborate “generosity” phase that is designed to build to the success of later accusations of selfishness. During the “generosity” phase the abuser might offer to buy food, drinks, lend money, clean your room, ect.
What distinguishes this psuedo-generosity from real generosity is the underlying motive.
True generosity is to give without any expectation of reciprocity. Yet, that doesn’t stop many of us from experiencing a strong desire to return the favor in some way or another. It is this moment wherein we reveal our values and as a result, that desire value becomes high-jacked and used against us in phrases like,
“What do you mean you can’t give me a discount! I’ve been a paying customer for nearly a decade! ”
Or, “You don’t want to go to your aunt’s birthday dinner? Remember all those times she’s been there for you? All the things she’s gotten you over the years? ”
Let’s say we don’t have a strong desire to return the favor? No matter. Since most of us still don’t want to be seen as selfish, the guilt tripper will appeal to this desire instead. While accusations of selfishness were implied in the earlier examples, sometimes it can be very explicit.
“You don’t want to help your mother with the grass? That’s really selfish”
Abuser’s can become really creative and pile on layers of complexity to this trick. Sometimes the request for a favor is calculated in such a way as to be asked within a short period of time after the Abuser does something “altruistic”, like purchase an entire meal, the whole purpose of which being a ploy designed to lead into the eventual request.
Let’s say you’re tired of receiving gifts that will inevitably be used against you and so you ask the guilt tripper to refrain from providing any favors, gifts, or help. In order to ensure that she has some kind of leverage over you, the abuser isn’t going to be willing to agree to this request. So, how does she respond? Well, since empathetic people have a strong desire to not hurt others, the abuser will most likely opt to exploit this desire with crocodile tears.
“You mean do don’t care about what I’ve done for you? I...I just wanted to make you happy. You’re hurting me!”. Then the tears ensue.
So, in this example you're given a guilt trip for not allowing ploys that are designed to set up guilt trips.
It’s a no-win situation that wreaks havoc on the nervous system. Prolonged exposure to this kind of abuse transforms the healthy mechanism of guilt, which is designed to send tolerable internal cues to help one adjust his actions for the benefit of his own happiness, into a mechanism that signals for the adjustment of actions for the benefit of the abuser, to avoid punishment.
The only way to win is to not play.-
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You can argue anything, but this thread isn't a battleground so maybe we can save that one for another time.
This is a great point but it also struck me that there must be more than a strong desire for visibility for this to happen. A person must also be incapable of determining the authenticity of a compliment, otherwise they would not confuse manipulation for visibility in this way. (phony praise is recognizable by a kind of disparity between either the act and reality or the relationship between you and the other person in my opinion)
The attack is incredibly calculated, and so I'd like to highlight another facet of it. If you try and point out what seems blatantly aggressive to you, the attacker feigns ignorance and uses the literal meaning of his words as a cloak. Only a true coward relies on a device so predictably banal as this to deliver his blows.Well said, Rob. It is very cowardly.
To add to the top part of your post, one of the things I learned from Spartan Life Coach is that naivete is a common defense that arises in those who are in a toxic environment as children and who are unable to critically examine it.
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Hey, Joseph.
So, why not change your profile name to 'Joseph the individual with his own unique combination of characteristics because people cannot be put into categories'?
Here's a post I made briefly sharing what I found to be the difference between Narcissism and Sociopathy you might find interesting.
https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/39611-vengeance-and-out-sun-bathing-the-lizard-sociopathy-is-nothing-to-envy/
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I don't mean to hijack your thread, Joel but somebody else on the forum very recently posted a you tube link and I've been listening to that guy the whole day. I'll post 2 links below that struck me just the way your work did, Joel. I now have the validation that my mother did all that shit ON PURPOSE.
Thank you! I've seen his channel and like his videos as well.
Also pretty much anything, especially his YouTube videos, by Sam Vaknin are monster good for learning about narcissism.
Dr. Sam Vaknin has great stuff too!
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There are two kinds of people in the world. People who have adequate communication skills and thus, have the ability to ask for what they need in a respectful manner and there are those who well, don't. The latter type of person arises from childhoods wherein he at one point had to manipulate other emotionally unavailable family members or peers to get his needs met. The result of being neglected in this way is that this behavior not only becomes the default position for these wounded people, but because it becomes the default position from an early age, by the time the child is an adult, he gets incredibly good at it, much to the detriment of the rest of society.
Highly sophisticated manipulators have a very keen understanding of the how the fight or flight and personal boundaries operate. They need to if they are going to be effective predators. And like most predators, their understanding is instinctive, which in many ways makes them all the more dangerous since they don't have to spend long periods of a time evaluating a person. This assessment can occur in the blink of an eye.
What this means is that manipulators very quickly determine their target's Achilles heal and will take the opportunity to exploit such weakness whenever the time is right. Sometimes these weaknesses are even manufactured by the manipulators, as is the case when praise is used as manipulation.
When a person receives praise or compliments, the brain releases a pleasure signal, which causes the person to feel more at ease and thus the defenses drop. To borrow a quote from an article on the subject, “Being complimented has the same positive effect on the brain as being rewarded with cash”. I’ll post the links to these articles below.
If the manipulator is attempting to have you agree to a favor that will actually serve the manipulator’s needs at your expense, this is when the elation caused by the praise comes in handy since people are more inclined to accept offers uncritically when they feel good. Think of how many times you’ve watched a scene in movie wherein the protagonist is attempting to get a high official to disclose secret information after serving him alcohol or something equivalent.
Some people will be more susceptible to this tactic than others. The less secure a person is as result of being emotionally neglected early in life, the better these compliments are going to feel to them and so the more at risk these people will be at being taken advantage of.
In addition to being utilized as a tool for manipulation, praise has another use. It can also be a highly effective weapon for humiliation and passive aggression. The way in which this sword is handled is not too different from how ordinary, hurtful sarcasm is slung about since sarcasm is apparent praise which conceals another, scornful meaning. I want to stress the word hurtful so as not to confuse what I’m talking about with the sort of sarcasm that is playful, mutually beneficial comedy.
It is often the case that sarcasm is delivered in such a tone of voice that gives itself away. The more refined sadist will deliver the praise completely straight with convincing sincerity. This makes it much easier for the abuser to deny reasonable suspicion and thus, block retaliation.
Also, the praise itself is often highly exaggerated. When this ludicrous adulation is repeatedly given in front of others, it creates painful embarrassment. This pain not only gives the sadist his pleasure, but it gives him something to soothe and thus, a justification for his relationship. Much like how a government will break your legs, sell you a wheelchair and assures you that without government you wouldn’t be getting around so well.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2012/11/09/study-receiving-a-compliment-has-same-positive-effect-as-receiving-cash/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231602/Flattery-Evidence-shows-compliments-make-people-perform-better.html-
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I agree that some peoples lives, due to bad choices and other factors, have become ruined to the point that even the best available option for improvement still isn't great. It is for this reason that as philosophers, we must stress prevention. Prevention is always better than cure and for those who are sick beyond cure, well, let their lives serve as a warning. With all due sympathy of course.
Know the red flags for narcissism in order to avoid abusive people and don't create them int the first place through abuse and neglect.
Evil is a virus that replicates through abuse.-
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Joel,
Thanks for the response. That is precisely what I was looking to be explained. Now makes sense.
I've watched, "The Bomb In The Brain" series twice. Haven't heard of "Irritation number 1763" before. Will look for that. Thanks again, and for the sharing of your great piece.
Dad is a narcissist. Dealt with him for eighteen years. The likelihood of them changing is indeed low. Dad never changed, though I did go back to him years later and try to mend our relationship. It wasn't the wrong thing to do, but it didn't work out. I wasn't rattled by him any longer and he could not accept that. Narcissists have to be in control of everyone and everything around them.
He stopped in at a family gathering once and he and I got the job of going to the basement to fetch a foldaway table for extra places for a dinner that was to be served. Dad doesn't do things like that. Dad doesn't move tables, do dishes, cook, wash clothes, or do any work of any kind when there are others around. It had been so long since I had seen him, I had forgotten his ways. He sits on his arse and watches television and ignores everyone while they are preparing things for him and getting him cups of coffee. He was already irked he had to go to the basement to get the table in the first place, and had already started to grumble. He couldn't believe someone even had the nerve to ask him to do it. He's the laziest, stupidest man alive. When I picked up the table, he picked up the other end, and what should have been a simple movement up the stairs turned into a little temper tantrum for the old bugger as he quickly discovered I was "carrying it wrong goddamnit!" and dropped his end on the floor, then turned and put his fists on his hips and glared at me, as if waiting for my apology and explanation for my lowly existence, like I always had to do when I was a child. I just looked at him with contempt and chuckled, making him feel stupid and embarrassed and frightened when he realized his ugliness hadn't moved or phased me a bit. He didn't know what to do then. I just stood there, solid as a rock. "Whenever you're ready. Some time tonight, I hope. I'm getting hungry." I said, patiently waiting for him to grow up. Overgrown, spoiled children require lots of patience, you know. He turned and lifted the table of a sudden and marched up the stairs in a huff without saying another word to me or even looking at me the rest of the evening. There was no doubt in my mind the fright that he experienced was born of the thought that I was there now to conquer him, as he once thought he had conquered me. But I am not a low-life, like him. I was there because I was invited to dinner and to enjoy myself. I had nothing to prove. I had nothing to ask for or take from him. I wanted nor needed nothing from him.
I was proud of myself and the change I had made in me. The bored, frightened, obedient child I once was had worked and grown beyond all the nonsense and saw through it, and refused to perpetuate it. The chokings, beatings, and psychological abuse and maltreatment didn't stick. I was pleasantly surprised at the way I handled myself. The encounter was good for me.
As for some others, it might not be a good idea to have any contact with an abuser. That is entirely dependent on the individuals involved.
I'm really sorry to hear about your father. That's wretched wretched behavior.
I haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to Narcissistic fathers. In many ways it's an entirely different experience and because of that I think warrants more writing into that topic.
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Perfect Blue is a psychological thriller anime that's quite good too.
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irrevocable[ih-rev-uh-kuh-buh l]adjective1. not to be revoked or recalled; unable to be repealed or annulled; unalterable:an irrevocable decree.
You use this word in the first paragraph of your talk, which, to my mind, nullifies and makes pointless the remainder of your talk. In doing so, you suggest there is nothing that can be done to help a narcissist, i.e., there is nothing a narcissist can do to help himself?
For example, a narcissist beats a child, chokes him, strangles him, lies to and manipulates him, sexually abuses him, nearly kills him on several occasions, thus creating another narcissist in his wake... there is no hope, therapy, recourse, recovery for either of them? Even if they are willing participants in therapy? I am not clear what it is you are trying to say here, but if that's what it is, I would have to disagree. But, even so, if you are correct in that nothing can be done, what then? What do we do with all the narcissists about?
Hey, blackfish.
I would submit that we don't damage kids brains in the first place.Prevention is always better than cure.
It is true that a person who is psychologically wounded, who has endured intense abuse and neglect can change their brain through intensive work and modify behavior. This person might develop many skills and do great things.But even so, this will never be the kind of brain that they could have had they not endured trauma.
Think of it like this. If I cut you're arm off, it will never grow back. Your body is irrevocably damaged. but, you can get a prosthetic or a hook or something and still function quite well.
The line is inspired by Stefan Molyneux's explanation of why his youtube channel was previously called Stefbot.
To get full context, check out the podcast on Irritation number 1763.
"Its these tiny bullet like ping pong balls of opposition to everything you think and feel that, that is true and real, that what for me was the deathblow to the self that was. And the self that I have now is not the self that was. The self that was, the natural self, is dead, gone buried, decomposed, turned into ashed, and now washed into the bottom of the sea. The self that I have now is a good self in many ways, a self that I'm happy with in many ways, but it is a robot. A robot of reconstruction. It is not the natural self. The natural self, I will never experience that. And I see that achingly clearly as a parent with Isabella. I will never experience that natural self. There's no possibility. You cannot go back and undo all that damage. Only piece together. It just made sense why my youtube channel is called Stefbot. I am a robot of reconstuction. Not a natural thing. I was shoved into a grave of tiny little beings of opposition to everything that I thought and felt."
Also, if you haven't seen the Bomb in The Brain series, which talks about abuse on brain development, I'd highly recommend it.
The answer is 'No Contact Ever Again' or limited contact.
In my personal relationships, I believe *some* people deserve a second chance to make amends for verbally or emotionally abusing me. It is on me to tell them why I am unhappy with the relationship, and then it is on them to make amends. If they do not show me *with actions* they have regret by no longer verbally/emotionally abusing me, then No Contact is my solution.
As a society, I support ostrasizing abusers who are:
1. unwilling to admit to the abuse they inflicted
2. unwilling to seek therapy/self knowledge
3. unwilling to *actively* show they no longer abuse people
I think your writing is intense and powerful; the dog analogy is so uncomfortable to read, it is spot on -- disgustingly accurate.
I look forward to reading more about what you have to say about guilt as a tool to manipulate.
Congratulations on such a great accomplishment. :-)
Hey, Sacha. As always, I really enjoy your contributions. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply. No contact is a great solution and often becomes the default position since the likely hood, from my experience, that they would change is very low.
I had been thinking about how I would know if my mom was giving a sincere apology.
My answer was, "unless you've contemplated, had strong urges or in fact restrained yourself several times, with an extraordinary amount of will power from throwing yourself off a bridge, then you haven't fully accepted the damage you've done to me. Not even including my siblings. "
But even then I wouldn't want to interact with her because I find no pleasure in her company when she's "nice."
So again, to tie this in the Black's reply, I would also like to add the preventative solution of not damaging children's brains in the first place.
Thank you, Joel.
You put into words what is true and what I was never allowed to say.
You wrote about my mother's abuse and precisely how I perceived it. I very clearly felt her vicious hatred and her insatiable hunger for power over me. I knew it all along - my mother did not love me, she wanted me gone, dead. And nobody believed me. NOBODY.
In her fits of rage she showed her true colors, always behind closed doors of course. I was struck by the point you made of how these bullies are being honest when rampaging through their victim's lives. I always sensed that but now it's all the more clearer than ever.
The dog analogy is dead-on. To increase and maintain the power disparity my mother desperately needed to have the illusion of self-worth, she simultaneously applied emotional abuse. She installed a self-controlling and self-loathing chip in my brain. I felt like a conditioned dog most of the time, only that our real dog was treated far better.
Thank you so much for the effort you put into your work and I can't wait to read more.
My heart goes out to you Starsky. You did not deserve the abuse that was inflicted on you.
I'm glad that my writing was of some value to you.
You might also find some value in this other short post I made.
https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/42330-abuse-as-phasic/
Best Wishes
-Joel
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I aspire to write a short book on abuse and wanted to share a decent junk of what I've been working on so far. It abruptly stops because its not finished. (for feedback.)
The Narcissist’s Tale
Sifting Through the Wreckage of the Self
The Narcissist’s early childhood was a desolate wasteland. Rife with abuse and neglect, not only was this landscape devoid of the necessary sustenance required for a robust personality to develop, such as unconditional acceptance and warm intimacy, it was actively hostile. This malnourishment leaves the child’s self in an irrevocably stunted, incomplete, and damaged state.
The severity of this deep impact on the child’s psyche rivals that of a fatal flesh wound and thus leaves a lifelong legacy of inner pain and torment. With this existential agony being carried into adulthood, self medication becomes the fulcrum of the adult Narcissist’s life, with narcissistic supply being her drug of choice.
Narcissistic supply, simply put, is any kind of attention that provides the narcissist with a feeling of power and self worth. This supply can take the form of compliments, fame, adulation, adoration or even fear. The way in which this is different from a healthy desire for praise is that the healthy individual’s self-esteem is self-sustained and thus only requires honest praise for guidance and support, while the Narcissist is dependent on it and will accept it indiscriminately. In essence, it is a futile, yet tragic attempt to compensate for the lack love and attention she received as a child: to soothe inner pain. This is the essence of addiction. Addictions in many ways have metaphorical significance and reveal a lot about early childhood experiences. To borrow from Gabor Mate’s incredible book, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts,
“When infants are anxious or upset, they are offered a human or a plastic nipple-in other words, a relationship with either a natural nurturing object or something that closely resembles it. That’s how emotional nourishment and oral feeding or soothing become closely associated in the mind. Children who continue to suck their thumbs past infancy are attempting to soothe themselves; it’s always a sign of emotional distress. Except in rare cases of physical disease, the more obese a person is, the more emotionally starved they have been at some crucial period in their life”.
I would like to suggest that similarly, the more a person requires Narcissistic supply, the more starved they have been at some crucial period in their life.
Again, to support the point further with Gabor Mate’s book, “The roots of sex addiction also reach back to childhood experience. Sex addiction authority Dr. Aviel Goodman points out that the vast majority of female sex addicts were sexually abused as children, as were up to 40 percent of the men.”
Like the addict who desperately pierces a dirty needle through severely infected veins to meet her heroine quota, the Narcissist is not impartial to going through the most stomach turning of rituals to fill their void. By far the most contemptuous and vulgar forms of exploitation is when a Narcissist uses her children to achieve this end.
Children, to this kind of person, are no different from any other source of supply, except in the sense that it is the parent child relationship wherein the greatest of all power disparities lie. Because of this, children are a frequent target of choice. The Narcissist is able to exercise more control over her children than over any other source of supply as well as experience the most benefits. As beautiful as the Narcissist styles her hair through the most expensive salons, as detailed as she can sculpt her body through rigorous exercise routines, or as high as she can climb up the corporate ladder, there’s always going to be someone who doesn’t provide her any recognition for these achievements or even notice at all, for that matter.
Children, on the other hand, are always watching you, will always need you, will offer to dry your tears when you’re upset, will offer to rub your shoulders when you are tense, and will run merrily into your arms when you come home. To them you are omniscient, omnipotent, and infallible. Maybe it’s alone time and distance you want? No matter, children will eventually learn to place your needs above their own. They will drop everything, including their identity to be what you want and what you need. Anything to keep the bond between them and their caregiver vital.
They learn compliance from the severe repercussions that inevitably result from open displays of individual preferences, anger, boredom, disobedience, or contradiction. These perceived threats to the Narcissist’s fragile ego are also known as narcissistic injury. These imaginary “slights” more often than not provoke what is often called “Narcissistic Rage.” While this insanely petty and immature form of acting out might seem senseless to the outside observer, remember, to the Narcissist you are a possession, not a person. It is during this blind fit a of fury that the Narcissist takes off the disguise of posturing, pretense, and coaxing and reveals her true form. This is the most honest moment she will ever have with her victims.
If the injured party is an adult, it is during this vulnerable period of hysterical raging when the target is unintentionally provided a choice. Now that the truth has become unwound, now that the narcissist is exposed, now that the target cannot unsee such a blatant expression of hatred towards herself, she can make a decision based on reality. She can either choose to stay a host or flee from the danger. This is the risk that the abuser faces when opting to wield more overt tactics of control and domination: the source of the pain becomes visible.
Deep down, nobody likes to be bullied. Bullying fosters resentment, rage, humiliation and hatred. This is bad for the Narcissist because she is dependent on her target for Narcissistic Supply. It is this supply that is the lifeline which provides the Narcissist a means to escape her own lifeless existence. Much like a heroine addict off being cut off from her drug, when a Narcissist is cut off from their source of supply, the outcome is very ugly.
Being the master manipulator that the Narcissist is, she is fully aware of her dependence and is already one step ahead of her target. Anger is the immune system which serves to push back abusive people, much in the same way white antibodies fight off illness. This is why she must turn the target’s newfound certainty into confusion as well as diffuse the target’s outrage.
How does she achieve this? Like a totalitarian regime that will double down on brutality and propaganda whenever their is rising dissent, the narcissist must double down her efforts to maintain power. The difference is that the Narcissist recognizes that direct control is costly and demands an exhaustive amount of time and energy. Her solution is brilliant. Rather than using brute force to make the target obey, she manipulates her target’s emotions. That way, the target bullies herself into submission.
Remember, much like how a dog is considered property to a human, to an abuser you also are a kind of pet. And just as the dog owner trains the canine to react to various stimuli and respond to particular emotional cues through various forms of conditioning, so too does the abuser condition her target in this way. The longer this conditioning goes on the more susceptible to emotional manipulation the target will be. The ways in which the abuser manipulates emotions are varied and plentiful, so it takes a bit of fine-tuning to get optimum results. However, once the abuser finds the right concoction of mind control tactics, this potion will be potent enough to put the target under a binding psychological spell.
One of the most common and effective forms of emotional manipulation that I’ve personally encountered is the manipulation of guilt.
Emotional Manipulation: Guilt
Eliciting guilt can be achieved in a variety of different ways, with the success of such attempts often relying on how seasoned the abuser is. Other factors come into play too, for the seasoned abuser understands that knowing the target can be just as valuable as knowing the craft.
This is important since guilt is after all, to borrow Wiki’s definition, “ an experience that occurs when a person realizes orbelieves—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moralstandard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation.”
Without some knowledge of what the target values, an abuser is at best left engaging in the embarrassing spectacle of blindly throwing anything against the wall with the desperate hope that something will stick.
Sometimes the effect can be quite funny, as is the case with this "guilt trip fail" that I found on the internet.
Customer: “Hey, you guys sell fish food and supplies, but do you have any fish?”Me: “No, sorry sir, we don’t sell pets.”
Customer: “Where do they sell pets?”
Me: “A pet store?”
Customer: “Is there one of those near here?”
Me: “Uhm, I really don’t know.”
Customer: “Will you take me to it?”
Me: “… no?”
Customer: “Sam Walton would take me to it!”
Me: “Sam Walton is dead.”
It is for this reason that this common breed of toxic behavior is often found overpopulating the interactions of our most intimate relationships. The longer somebody is around you and the closer you are to the person then naturally, the more information a person has about you to blackmail.
So, other than requiring knowledge of the target, how does the manipulator get the target to believe that he’s violated his own standards as well as being fully responsible for that violation.?
As we saw with the disgruntled Sam Walton loving customer, you can’t just throw out the guilt-tripping phrases point-blank. Effective guilt tripping is a set-up that requires an elaborate “generosity” phase that is designed to build to the success of later accusations of selfishness. During the “generosity” phase the abuser might offer to buy food, drinks, lend money, clean your room, ect.
What distinguishes this psuedo-generosity from real generosity is the underlying motive.
True generosity is to give without any expectation of reciprocity. Yet, that doesn’t stop many of us from experiencing a strong desire to return the favor in some way or another. It is this moment wherein we reveal our values and as a result, that desire value becomes high-jacked and used against us in phrases like,
“What do you mean you can’t give me a discount! I’ve been a paying customer for nearly a decade! ”
Or, “You don’t want to go to your aunt’s birthday dinner? Remember all those times she’s been there for you? All the things she’s gotten you over the years? ”
Let’s say we don’t have a strong desire to return the favor? No matter. Since most of us still don’t want to be seen as selfish, the guilt tripper will appeal to this desire instead. While accusations of selfishness were implied in the earlier examples, sometimes it can be very explicit.
“You don’t want to help your mother with the grass? That’s really selfish”
Abuser’s can become really creative and pile on layers of complexity to this trick. Sometimes the request for a favor is calculated in such a way as to be asked within a short period of time after the Abuser does something “altruistic”, like purchase an entire meal, the whole purpose of which being a ploy designed to lead into the eventual request.
Let’s say you’re tired of receiving gifts that will inevitably be used against you and so you ask the guilt tripper to refrain from providing any favors, gifts, or help. In order to ensure that she has some kind of leverage over you, the abuser isn’t going to be willing to agree to this request. So, how does she respond? Well, since empathetic people have a strong desire to not hurt others, the abuser will most likely opt to exploit this desire with crocodile tears.
“You mean do don’t care about what I’ve done for you? I...I just wanted to make you happy. You’re hurting me!”. Then the tears ensue.
So, in this example you're given a guilt trip for not allowing ploys that are designed to set up guilt trips.
It’s a no-win situation that wreaks havoc on the nervous system. Prolonged exposure to this kind of abuse transforms the healthy mechanism of guilt, which is designed to send tolerable internal cues to help one adjust his actions for the benefit of his own happiness, into a mechanism that signals for the adjustment of actions for the benefit of the abuser, to avoid punishment.
The only way to win is to not play.-
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Cool post!
It's only since listening to FDR that I started to see these things. I can look back and see now that it is only really the people that knew me the best that could deliver these abuses in this manner. It seems that they were almost always exquisitely timed for max impact.
In cases of new people and people in general life, the showing of vulnerability tells alot now. It is interesting to see how different people react and how some will seek to gain trust just to deliver their own little stab at hierarchical assault. It is an extremely valuable skill to have in sorting individuals and in judgement. I can say : " ah, the abuse hierarchy is strong in this one"!!!
Thank you for the compliment and for taking the time to read.
I think you're on to something there. The longer somebody is around you and the closer you are to the person then naturally, the more information a person has about you. Bad people, like politicians "sniff" you out to exploit whatever information they have about you to serve their own selfish needs.
And I agree, it's certainly important to know how to spot these people. It is the people who have come out of abusive households, who have had their internal alarm system highjacked, who are not in touch with their feelings as a result of trauma that I hope to help by pointing out these patterns. As well as clearing things up for myself. It is really confusing.
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This portion stuck out to me most.
Anger (and emotions in general) seems to be portrayed as a nuisance to be anesthetized with the aid of contemporary pharmacology or misdirected with sophistry in ways that best serve the sovereigns in the shadows.
Thank you for posting.
Thank you again for taking the time to read and respond. I'm glad you were able to find some value in it.
Anger is only a nuisance to the rulers!
Well said.
"The apology is to disarm your anger, to lower your defenses and thus allow him back in."
Yep, this is the part that takes people a long time to recognize. Once a person understands "forgiveness is not charity"-stef, they can accept and feel the anger without any guilt.
Thank you, Sacha.
Yeah, it definitely took me a long time to recognize that as well!
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Abuse can only be viewed in its entirety when it is regarded as something that occurs in a series of stages, much in the same way we view Hurricanes as storms which evolve through a life cycle of stages.
For example, before a hurricane entirely obliterates an area it begins as a "Tropical Disturbance", which consists of a mass of thunderstorms.While these thunderstorms might cause significant damage, they eventually group together to form what is known as a "Tropical Depression", wherein winds intensify slightly.
Then a TROPICAL STORM forms when the maximum sustained winds have intensified to almost double the rates and begins to form its circular shape. Even heavier rainfall follows as well.
It is shortly after the TROPICAL STORM that the incredibly violent circular shape we know as a HURRICANE, with full rotation around the eye, is formed. While this monster sweeps over an area, there will be a moment of relative tranquility.
Do not be fooled, while the eye is a region of mostly calm weather, it is being circled by by rough storms. The Hurricane is by no means over.
Now lets look at the example of Verbal abuse.
An abuser initiates this sequence with an insult.
The first phase is to hurt you.
"You're fucking boring!!", he might exclaim.
You're reaction might look like speechless shock or you might push forward by asserting that you feel insulted and that what was said was mean and uncalled for.
Since that worked, the abuser will then move on to STAGE 2 with what's known as minimization and invalidation. This might look like the following
"It's nothing personal!"
"It was just a joke!"
The combination of these two techniques is what's known as gaslighting.
Gaslighting is form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.
The purpose of this stage is to create confusion and self doubt, to get your attention away from the hurt in your heart and into your head where you will most likely try to make sense of what was just said.
“What does he mean, a joke? What? How am I not suppose to take this personal?”, you might ask yourself.
Now that you're confused you are susceptible to phase three. It takes many forms, but essentially This phase is designed to reeducate you, to brainwash you.
In this case it will take the form of an apology. It is at this point that he hopes to lure you back in.
"I'm sorry, are you bothered by this?", he might ask.
This is much like the eye of the hurricane. In addition to apologizing, he is likely to be very nice and all of a sudden seem very “concerned”.
Do not be fooled! This is just continuing the abuse. It’s not over yet.
Anger is like your immune system which serves to push back abusive people, much in the same way white antibodies fight off illness. The apology is to disarm your anger, to lower your defenses and thus allow him back in.
When you say, "oh, I guess it wasn't a big deal, I'll stay around him", he has you under his control. His rules have become internalized. Don't let it happen. You're worth more than that.
Notes: Even physical abuse like "spanking" is followed by phases such as the "This is for your own good." rationalization.
Also, invalidation is not to be taken lightly. Sometimes the little things are actually big things.
For more info on invalidation check out this page
http://eqi.org/invalid.htm-
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You're a true hero man. I wonder how these kids lives and thinking are to this day after what you've done for them. Most especially the ones you've actually addressed and expressed sympathy for directly rather than just dealing with their parents.
Thanks, Marlon! I appreciate your support, as always.
I am not yet well-grounded enough in public speaking and philosophy to intervene the way you do. But I am inspired to reach these goals through your example.
Thank you, Joel.
That's great, man! When I first started, I could barely get the words out!
That's fantastic! Bravo to you, Joel. I'm sure neither the kid nor the mother will ever forget that. As a former B&N employee, I'd like to say I would have done the same thing had I seen something like that.
Thank you
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Thank you all so much for your kind words. It's incredibly motivating and makes interventions so much easier know that I have you guy's support.
That's awesome Joel!
I was once waiting around this Children Theater for my friend who worked there and had just finished a show. There was two female adults and a little girl across the room from me. The girl couldn't have been more than 7. She was idly pulling on one of those retractable belt "stanchions", I just learned is what it's called. They're used to make waiting lines. The girl was barely pulling it out, not even making a noise. The mother walks over, smacks the girl on the wrist, then pulls the girl by the wrist back over to the bench that she was sitting on...
I was so incredibly torn on what the hell I should do. I think I had taken 3 or 4 steps towards them to say something, but I had some incredible wall of guilt holding me back. I know it was selfish of me, but I'm saying this because I understand what it takes to do what you did, and I really don't know how to confront a situation like that...
I can certainly understand that sometimes it feels like your body is working against you. To relate to what you were saying here's an intervention where I had a similar struggle. https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/40847-child-abuse-intervention-at-kroger/#entry373748Keep trying, though. You can do it
Joel, I think you've demonstrated an incredibly important point here. Even if the mother/parents has the receptivity of a brick, and even if you know that nothing you're going to say is going to change or impact her, the very fact that you let the child know that his suspicions are correct (i.e. that it's not okay for someone to hit him) is HUGE in the child's point of view. You have officially proven that the entire universe isn't conspiring against him and that he himself isn't necessarily the problem. I think an action like this may be the fuel/inspiration for this boy to break free from his abusers in the future.
Thank you. I think that's something I'd like to focus on more in the future. That takes a lot of stress off me since I don't have to be thinking of comebacks or a way to persuade someone.
Good for you Joel. One of my regrets in life is not stepping up to intervene on behalf of my nephew when his crazy mother assaulted him in front of us. It wasn't just a 'disciplinary reprimand' type of 'correction' slap either. He was about 3 and she attacked him and tossed him about and struck him a few times. I just looked on in shock and horror. We lost touch with him for many years and when he reappeared as an adult I was able to speak to him about his childhood and apologize for not intervening on his behalf. He no longer has a relationship with her but he really is messed up.
I have regrets too about not intervening when I could have. Regret is healthy, let it inform you
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It happened in Barnes and Noble. I had just stopped at the Personal Growth section, as I'm one to do. I was looking to find a book entitled "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" or something like that.Beside me, sat a woman on the floor in the "indian style" position. Next to her, also on the floor, was a young boy who looked to be the age of 7.My goal was to find something to help me process unpleasant memories of my mother that had been triggered just the day before.Before I even got a good gander at the books, I see the lady quite forcefully swat the boy's backside, which created that oh so familiar and dreadful popping sound distinctive of slapping human skin.I didn't catch how it escalated to that point, but it didn't matter. It was fucking hostile. Without hesitation I looked down on her and scolded her, with anger and conviction, "Ma'm, that is really inappropriate! You don't hit kids"She said something to the liking of, "I'm sorry you feel that way ""No!", I pointed at the books, "no where will you find in these books that hitting kids is appropriate"I mean, she was in a personal growth section for goodness sake.She then thanked me sarcastically for letting her know about my perception, which I'm beginning to see as a common bullshit defense from these child abusers.Luckily, since I had encountered this before during my last intervention, I was ready to reply with what I wished I would have said last time."You're welcome", I said. I started to walk away, but stopped once I remembered something very important. I turned around, walked to the boy's side, kneeled down to his level, looked him in the eyes and said, ""Hey, Man. nobody should hit you, okay?""Okay", he whispered while simultaneously nodding his head in agreement. Now that I attended to my injured comrade, I was ready to depart. Don't ignore the call of duty, people. We're philosophers and this is our responsibilitiy. I know it can be difficult, but trust me. Please trust me. it's worth it. As Emma Watson said,"If not us, then who? If not now, than when?"I hope that helps. Take care, Joel
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Hey, Torien!Glad to hear about the progress you're making.Welcome
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This might seem like trivial drama but it has made me feel quite anxious over the past few days and I would like to hear an outside opinion. I was sitting with my group of friends from college and out of nowhere, one of them (we'll call him James) said something to the effect of "Can we all switch seats in class, I hate sitting beside aro, it's so fucking boring, all he does is work and barely talks". Everyone looked at me, surprise and confusion on their faces. My heart dropped and I was speechless. No one really responded, there was a sense of tension but the subject was changed. After a while, one of my friends brought the subject back. He was concerned for me and said to James, "What you said about aro was harsh and uncalled for". James then claimed that it was nothing personal. How the hell is this nothing personal? He made a negative statement about my personality! I took this as an attack. No one wants to be called boring, especially in front of other people, I see it as a form of humiliation because who wants to associate with a boring person.
Later on, James "apologised", but it didn't sound sincere at all, it sounded as if he was just trying to avoid any drama. He walked up to me and said "I'm sorry, are you bothered by this?" "Of course I am", I replied but then he dropped the subject and walked over to someone else. What am I to make of this? Can I really consider someone a friend when they call me "fucking boring" and make next to no effort to consider how insulted I felt? Overall, I feel really confused about this. When he said I don't talk in class, this is a flat out lie. In almost every class, James and I have a good laugh while we do the work, I don't know what else he wants, I'm not his jester.
He is not a friend, but rather an abusive jerk. I'd stay away from him. Abusive people never stop. He will continue to hurt and bewilder you. He bewilder's and confuses you to keep you around. This is the second goal of the abuser, other than to hurt you, they want to keep you around so they can keep hurting you.
In your case, during phase one of the abuse, he hurts you by saying your boring. Phase two is when he tried to confuse you and to get you to doubt yourself, by minimizing your hurt, "it's nothing personal!"This is continuing the abuse. Now that you're confused you are susceptible to phase three, which is the manipulation. It is at this point that he hopes to lure you back in by apologizing. Anger is like your immune system which serves to push back abusive people, much in the same way white antibodies fight off illness. The apology is to disarm your anger, to lower your defenses and thus allow him back in.When you say, "oh, I guess it wasn't a big deal, I'll stay around him", he has you under his control. Don't let it happen. You're worth more than that.I hope that helps. -Joel
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It's an interesting video. I've never though of histrionic in terms of sexuality before. In my opinion, Personality Disorders serve much better as general descriptors for types of behavior or people, than medical disorders, where they are counter-intuitive and misleading. Neither of them are identifiable or possible to distinguish from each other. It's that kind of ambiguity that makes the current state of psychiatric misinformation possible.
If you want to read more in depth about the behaviors, check out:SplittingIdealization and devaluationCompartmentalization (psychology)Narcissistic rage and narcissistic injuryWhy Some Borderline, Narcissistic and Histrionic Mothers Sabotage their Children
Thank you for sharing, Lingum. Some of the links I've read, but the 3rd and 5th one I haven't. I'll give them a read!
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Thanks for sharing this, I can definitely relate to the removal of responsibility in undermining my own self-efficacy.
The example of this that comes to my mind was my college process, where the questions my parents posed to me were not, "Do you want to go to college? Do you think college makes sense, based on your dreams and goals?" The question was, "Which college do you want to go to?" I ended up going without direction and with an underdeveloped self-concept. This made me susceptible to peer-pressure, conformity and participating in activities that were dangerous to my health. I was also disinterested in actual learning. I finally broke out of it, but I would definitely say I was lucky to survive unscathed.
A key resource in developing my own self-efficacy has been Nathaniel Branden's Six Pillars of Self-Esteem. It contains some really helpful sentence-stem exercises.
Are you familiar with the book?
Thanks again and sorry you had to bear such treatment. I am glad to see you're evolving past it though
Thank you so much for your feedback and for watching my first video. I grow a little more everyday. I have heard of that book. I'm actually finishing up "How to Raise your Self Esteem" by that same author. Those are great points. Responsibility is empowering. Removing responsibilities leaves us feeling helpless and denies us opportunities for growth. We find out about ourselves through learning and trying new things and as you said, without those opportunities are self concept is weakened. It's a very subtle way to control. How do I know it wasn't about me? Because when I'd ask for my power back, I would be attacked. "You don't need a GPS", my mom would scream.
Very good. Thanks for Sharing!
I have not been through this myself, but have witnessed it over the years with friends and relatives. When i confronted those involved about it they were dumbfounded, and just did not get the damage that was being done. IMO it's the equivalent of a a bird picking the wing feathers off their young.
Thank you for your feedback!
Some abusers beat you down with their fists. Infantilization beats you down in the ways we just mentioned. However, because it can be hidden under the guise of "loving behavior", it can be coupled with deniability much easier. "I'm just trying to help!" "what you mean you don't want me to put you through college?" This kind of subtlety keeps the victim unaware of the abuse.
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It's not perfect, but I wanted to try something new!
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Hey, Kevin! First off i just wanted to compliment your post. It found it well written, enjoyable to read, and easy to read. Every sentence was focused, concise, yet stuffed with purpose and meaning. I can relate to Daniel Mackler's preference to type. I really enjoy typing because I can look up words to better express what I'm trying to communicate. Also, my hand writing is really sloppy and so, in order to write something which I will be able to go back and read I have to write slowly. Going straight to typing also allows me to copy and paste it on the boards if i find it worth sharing. And while it's true that many of my board posts start as written with a pencil, typing saves me the step of retyping it. I also had a sister who humiliated me. After I read where you mentioned your sister I felt angry. You didn't deserve that. The impact this has had on me was tremendous. Because the abuse was normalized, so many women I've chose to stay around have also teased and humiliated me. Anyway, I just downloaded audacity, so while I iron clothes i'm going to give audio journaling a try.I'm glad to see your gaining momentum in this area! Take care. -Joel
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I don't think so. Like I said. The labels "true self" and "false self" are not very useful terms.
I can understand how it wouldn't be useful to someone who doesn't understand or seek to understand why those terms are used.
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I remember really liking the show as a kid and now I can see why. It was basically a parody of my life with me always trying to find some plus for everyone so I can avoid attack. Trying the intellectual rout, then the jester and even trying to sell things. Nothing worked so deciding that if I can't BE without being attacked by those around me I turtled into my mind. The only place I could feel safe... at least until that too was attacked.
Jecht, I'm incredibly sorry to hear that. You deserved better. i'm glad you made it out with your true self in tact, though!to relate to what you'er saying, I remember acting like the stooge from Ed Edd And Eddy quite often as a way to provide value. Over time, this strategy would backfire and people would start talking to me as if I was a stooge. It became difficult to turn around because when I wasn't the jester some friends would urge me to do something goofy. It makes sense because when you make a transaction with someone, based on the premise "i will provide value by being a jester", that's what people expect.
A very good examination of the show. I was obsessed with this show when I was a kid and watched it all of the time. During that age, like the kids in the show, i was also neglected by my parents (Not in an extreme way but they didnt pay alot of attention to me and didnt really care about my preferences or anything like that, definitly not an over abundance of empath in the house). What i related to even more, and why I think i was obsessed with this show so much, is when you mention how these kids have to learn many essential lessons in life on their own. This is a very painful thing that i have definitly had to go through in my life. I guess thats why i related to the characters so much. I was also very socially awkward like the main characters, espescially Edd. It is indeed a great example of the horrid effects parental neglect can have on children. Very good post!
Thank you for taking the time to read and share your feed back. As well as the compliments!I'm sorry to here that you were neglected. You were worth more than that!
Regarding metaphor:
One interpretation I've found for the definition of metaphor as "a vehicle for meaning" implies a prerequisite connection. Since meaning is produced from the interaction of author, medium, and receiver (with most mediums as imperfect conductors), a metaphor can be lost in translation and/or perhaps spontaneously generated at the receiving end of communication.
In Ed, Edd, and Eddy, the purgatory theory could've been generated solely at the receiving end if unintended by the author(s); or, the purgatory metaphor could've been a subliminal reproduction of the author(s) subconscious mind packaged within the animation and received by the audiences' subconscious mind where it might resonate and become recognized also by aware conscious minds.
Likewise, your introspection could be interpreted as a communication between your subconscious and conscious minds where metaphor and the senses (subjective and objective) act as the medium.
(Your conscious mind asks a question; your subconscious mind responds with an image, metaphor, and/or emotion. Your subconscious mind triggers the biological warning system; your conscious mind concludes the stranger ahead is best to be avoided and plans an alternate route.)
That's interesting, luxfelix. i'm certainly no seasoned metaphor interpreter, so any tips are helpful!
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