Richard_V

In that case, I respectfully bow out of this conversation. .....And whoever is dishing out the red & green reputation points is defo a salad-dodger. Completely irrational statements made by meat-lovers get left alone whilst any point made by an animal lover is jumped on and 'red carded' almost immediately. What gives?

No need to be sorry. I just don't agree with the 'facts' in your post. I find it unbelievable that you don't believe animals have the capacity to feel pleasure, pain, joy, misery, fear. Have you ever met a dog? I don't agree that fish are just waiting to be food for other animals. I don't agree that killing animals is necessary for survival. I am just one of many (living) examples - having not consumed any animal products for almost 2 years now. Unfortunately, this is not the case 9 times out of 10 given the way livestock is treated in industrialised nations.

An example of speciesism is in your quote, below: Who are you to say what a fish feels or experiences / does not feel or does not experience? Is this fish just waiting to get eaten? This guy was an expert: Charles Darwin There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher animals in their mental faculties.… The lower animals, like man, manifestly feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery.

Genuine lol

It's very difficult to have a debate about animal rights with a speciesist. Just as it would be impossible to have a debate about human rights with someone who holds racism as a core belief. It has been universally accepted that non-human animals have the same capacity as us when it comes to feeling joy, happiness, sadness and fear. Just to be clear, are you saying you agree with the below? - and I really hope this is humour! It sounds like an old Derek & Clive sketch (Peter Cook & Dudley Moore) where they are talking about what the whales have ever done for us humans-- "Show me a whale that's ever written a top 10 song, or written the equivalent of Othello by Shakepeare. Whales were at the Nuremberg rallies! etc etc " Great stuff! Go to about 3 minutes 20 seconds in....

So which is more harmful? Killing some small ground dwelling animals as a result of crop harvesting or Exploiting, torturing and killing countless billions of animals in oder to enjoy their flesh, secretions and skin What's wrong with living healthily and happily whilst minimising the suffering and impact on other living beings?

I love this Facebook page: Christians Against Vegetarians & Vegans

Lions are carnivores. They do not have a choice. Their physiology dictates that they must eat meat. In this society, we can have vitamin B12 in products like nutritional yeast (which is also delicious by the way) http://www.vegkitchen.com/nutrition/nutritional-yeast-a-great-source-of-b12-and-other-b-vitamins/ Organic vegetables (grown in natural, nutrient dense soil) will have natural B12 within the trace soil embedded in their skin -- another reason why it's always good to eat your organic fruit and veg with the skin on. Nori seaweed is a great natural source of Vitamin B12: http://www.naturalnews.com/035138_nori_vitamin_b-12_iodine.html A lot of people are unaware that livestock are frequently given B12 supplements - which means meat eaters are often getting it 2nd hand through meat.

My argument is this: In the society we live in, it is completely unnecessary to consume animal products in order to live a healthy life. *(see below) it is therefore unnecessary to fund the exploitation, torture and killing of animals. Funding the exploitation, torture and killing of animals is something one chooses to do based solely on one's taste for animal flesh, secretions and skin. *This has been proved time and time again by independent nutritionalists. The British National Health Service also agrees. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx

The disgusting treatment of animals is the reason most people become vegan and stop consuming animal products.

For anyone who wants to open their eyes to the reality, here are some examples of the typical treatment animals suffer on large-scale farms. Pig torture: http://www.peta.org/videos/mother-pigs-and-piglets-tortured-in-a-north-carolina-factory-farm-2/ http://www.walmartcruelty.com Veal calf torture: http://www.cratedcruelty.ca Dairy cow torture: http://www.sliceofcruelty.com http://www.mercyforanimals.org/dairy/ Sheep torture: http://investigations.peta.org/australia-us-wool/ Fur farm torture: http://www.peta.org/videos/a-shocking-look-inside-chinese-fur-farms/

That Youofsky speech is a classic, but I have to say, I prefer Philip Wollen's approach Incredibly succinct and very, very difficult for any rational person to argue with.

http://www.mfablog.org/indian-city-becomes-first-vegetarian-city A whole city of heartless, psychopathic plant butchers! Palitana becomes first city in the world to outlaw animal slaughter and the sale of meat & eggs.

Oh OK. Well, good luck with that then.

I couldn't agree more. Cut the head off a flower and see how many people get upset. Cut the head off a dog and see how many people get upset. It's a pointless and childish argument often made by people who have run out of arguments to justify the consumption of animal products. Clutching at straws so to speak. Also, there are a great many plants which actually rely on being eaten by animals in order to spread seeds and propagate their species.