peachbrain

Thank you so much Wesley! When I read your response the other day, it brought tears to my eyes. It makes me happy that you were moved by my story! Anyway, as I go longer and longer without hearing from my dad, I'm starting to realize that you're probably right in that he won't change. It's still pretty shocking, though. Also it's really overwhelming thinking of perhaps going the rest of my life without a father. Most men probably consider the fact that a woman doesn't talk to her father a huge red flag- which I suppose it is. And if I were to have children (although this whole thing is making me reconsider whether I'm fit to be a mother), they'd be without a grandfather. As for therapy, I did have a therapist but I actually just quit pretty abruptly. My mom was paying for it but I wanted to make 2015 the year where I finally stop taking help from my parents, so it's either pay for it myself or nothing. And since I'm really far away from being able to pay for something like that myself (which is what my dad was referring to when he told me I needed to get my life straightened out), for now it's nothing. I've been meaning to start some sort of self-therapy like regular journaling, but obviously haven't yet. But reading your and everyone else's responses has definitely inspired me to do just that. So thank you again for your response and well wishes.

I've tried journaling off and on over the past couple of years but can't really seem to make a consistent habit of it. So honestly this little thread has been my only record of the event- which makes me glad I wrote the original post. I think sometimes just journaling to myself feels like a waste of time. What's the point of writing something no one is going to read? I know there are supposedly numerous benefits, but when I have a choice of journaling practically any other activity - that's usually the thought that pops into my head. I suppose a more consistent practice might provide more clear benefits - so I probably should try taking it up again.

Thank you for your thoughts, Libertarian Prepper. Here are some of mine in response to yours: Even though I know it was my mom's responsibility to create an atmosphere where I could talk about my feelings, I guess I just wouldn't feel right about cutting her out of my life. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I do feel sympathetically towards her. I think she genuinely didn't really know what she was missing with me because of her own childhood bereft of any sort of deep connection with her own parents. And even though I took the initiative at first, the ball is now mostly in her court- and she is taking initiative by paying for the family therapist, listening and taking the advice of the therapist, and calling me to talk. Also, seeing as how my conversation went with my dad- I've realized that my lifetime quasi-negative view of my mom may be mostly due to my dad's manipulations. I don't remember at exactly what age he started (which definitely means it was too young), but he'd always talk very candidly with about my mom's shortcomings- always framing it as he was letting me in on important adult matters. And since my mom pretty much kept her mouth shut about his, I think I grew up with a skewed view of them. Even in one of our last conversations, my dad couldn't help but tell me that he's always thought that my mom has "severe emotional problems"- completely oblivious to the fact that the exact same thing could easily be said about him. I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that my dad could be a narcissist. I've looked through some lists on the internet about narcissistic parents, and I suppose he does fit some of the criteria, but perhaps a less extreme version (he doesn't need to be the center of attention, doesn't lie). It's also especially hard because I've always considered myself to be very similar to my dad personality wise- and not similar at all to my mom. But again, that could be because of all of the aforementioned negatives digs my dad took at my mom over the years. It's almost like my whole conception of myself has to change now. I actually had just changed my phone number to get off of my dad's phone plan so I can't change it again- but he hasn't tried to contact me since that text besides sending me $200 for Christmas. I was thinking of not cashing the check, but I guess it was too hard to say no to $200 when I'm broke. I sent him a thank you note in the mail, just because I'd feel bad taking the money and saying absolutely nothing. And I'm sorry for taking so long to respond. I think I've kind of been pushing thoughts of my dad out of my mind recently, but decided a few days ago that I'd take another look at this thread and try to process everything a little more.

Hi Tony! I apologize for not responding earlier, I thought I'd get an e-mail if anyone posted on this but apparently not? But thank you for saying that- I just sometimes feel like my problems are bigger than they should be for not having a truly awful childhood. Anyway, I suppose I'm doing "ok" now. After that last conversation with my dad, I felt I was kind of on a "high" from finally de-FOOinng- i.e. the ridiculously long post. But lately I've just been feeling sad a lot. It's still kind of shocking to me how little my dad seems to want to get to know me and how he's completely unwilling to put any work into our relationship. He actually texted me yesterday saying "I miss my little girl." I got hopeful again, and responded that he doesn't have a little girl anymore, if he'd like to get to know his grown daughter, he'd have to do it in a therapist's office because there's only so much I can take. He wrote back, "I love you [peachbrain]. I hope and pray you get your life straightened out." Which I thought was another insensitive, cruel thing to say. I had actually just had a pretty inspiring, happy weekend, but I cried after getting that text. It just made me feel so shitty. I wanted to text back so many mean things (i.e. "And I hope one day you find out what that word, "love", really means." or "I am straightening my life out- by getting crooked people out of it!"), but ended up just not responding. I'm still hoping and praying he'll one day he'll break down and perhaps start listening to some FDR podcasts and eventually "get it" and then apologize and work to earn my respect and forgiveness. But I'm also afraid that this "aha" moment may only come if and when his girlfriend dumps him or somehow their relationship doesn't work out- and then what am I supposed to think? Oh you were fine not talking to your daughter as long as you had your new, hot girlfriend- but as soon as that's over NOW you're interested in me? I suppose that's just speculation anyway though- I suppose there's a chance this girlfriend may really be his last OR that he's so damaged that her dumping him still wouldn't make him do anything different. : /

Mark, you are so lucky to have started this process so young. I only wish I had found FDR by the time I was 22 I am kind of hoping that after no contact with him over the holidays, my dad will see that I am serious and will perhaps go to a family therapist with me. Also, if on the off chance he sends me a Christmas check, it's going to be reeaaally hard not to cash it as I could really use the money- but I'd feel contaminated somehow continuing to accept his money, as I feel like he used to hold his "generosity" over my head in an attempt to control me.

Last night, I had what was perhaps my last conversation with my dad. I thought it would be therapeutic to write my thoughts down and perhaps get some feedback / hopefully inspire others to go down this path as well... Some background: My ACE score is "only" 2-3: parents divorced, no one looked out for each other, and someone in my family depressed. I say 2-3 because I'm not sure I should give a full point for either of the last two. Having divorced parents pretty much ensures that your parents aren't looking out for each other, and my being an only child means I didn't have siblings doing that either. I suppose my parents did look out for me, but the "each other" phrase that made me think I should add a point, but I'm not entirely sure. Also my dad has talked about how he was clinically depressed at one point in his life when I was little, but I don't really remember anything out of the ordinary. My dad spanked me once, and I just found out that his father spanked me once too, but even if I'm not remembering everything, it certainly wasn't "often" and so doesn't rise to the level of an ACE point. Either way, sometimes I feel I don't have much of a right to complain, especially after listening to so many of the recent call-in shows with callers with ACE scores of 8, 9, and 10. I began the process of talking with my mom about my childhood this spring. I sprung it on her out of the blue over the phone (I don't live near either of my parents) and at first she yelled and freaked out, but she did call back the next day after calming down and we eventually started seeing a family therapist. Although I think we still have a long way to go, I've definitely been feeling a little warmer towards her recently and it's nice to finally have a mother that I can talk to my feelings about. Before I'd begun talking to either of my parents, I'd kind of imagined that my "better" parent was my dad. I have more positive and joyful memories of spending time with him (at least until I became a teenager) and even as adults I thought we had similar interests, i.e. libertarian philosophy. My first indication that perhaps this wasn't the case was when I first visited home after developing some new opinions (anarchy) that contradicted his own. I was really excited to share anarcho-capitalism with him, thinking he'd jump at the idea of getting the state COMPLETELY out of people's lives as he certainly had never been a fan of big government. I really thought he'd be interested in what I was now interested in, and he was- a little bit. But he also tried several times to dismiss me by saying that he too was once a young and idealistic libertarian, but now he's grown up and votes Republican. And maybe I should read Mark Levin's new book! We listened to one of Stef's first podcasts in the car together about private law, and he admitted it was interesting but wasn't convinced, which is understandable. But later I emailed him some more podcasts to listen to, and he never got back to me. I was hoping he'd really like FDR and the concept of anarchy in general, and then perhaps wander on over to some of Stef's family stuff by himself. Silly me. Anyway, I kept putting off talking to my dad about my child- and teenage-hood. First because his girlfriend had just dumped him, and I felt bad for him and didn't want to pile on. Then because I was sort of distracted by the conversation with my mom, and didn't know if I could handle both of them at the same time. But then my boyfriend of two and a half years dumped me, and I decided that I couldn't waste time anymore and decided to call him the very next day... When my dad answered, I told him that my boyfriend had dumped me the night before but that I'd called not to talk about that, but about my relationship with him. He was concerned about me being dumped and offered to listen to what had happened with my now ex, but repeated that I wanted to talk only about our father-daughter relationship- starting with how he treated me as a teenager. He already knew that my mom and I had being going to a family therapist, and I expressed interest in repairing my relationship with him as well. I told him that I thought I might have been treating my ex like he used to treat me as a teenager, and I wanted to get to the root of the problem and perhaps find out why other things in my life weren't going so well. We didn't really get too deep during this conversation, but he did agree to go see the same family therapist my mom and I were seeing. Since it was my mom paying for the family therapist, the main focus of the session with her, my parents, and I was getting clarity on my early family life. Again, we didn't really get too deep into my specific issues with my father. We did touch on my drug use (currently mostly psychedelics) and he sternly said I should done my experimenting with drugs in college like he did. I replied that in college, I was too busy getting drunk and sleeping with random guys, which obviously didn't make him very happy. The therapist encouraged my dad to come back in and have a session with me alone, but he said he was confident he could talk to me on his own. Later we agreed to talk on the phone again, and this time I started to pour my heart out. I told him how I used to be terrified of him as a teenager, and how I thought something wasn't right about the constant punishments he meted out to me. He kept saying how he has always loved me and he's sorry if he did something wrong but (there's always a but) he had good intentions the whole time. I tried to explain how good intentions don't really mean much, saying Hitler also had good intentions (yes, I know, invoking Hitler is probably not the best strategy). I don't remember much of this first phone call, except that, like many previous conversations with my dad, I ended up in tears. I had to cut it short because I had something else to go to, but he promised to call back so we could talk again soon. He didn't call back until three weeks later. First he asked about how I was doing post-breakup, but again I told him I didn't want to talk about that with him, but wanted to continue our conversation from last time. I again went into my issues with him, but he started to get more and more defensive, and I started to get more and more upset. Previously, I'd asked him to listen to some FDR podcasts on parenting, and he said he'd listened to a few of them and thought they were interesting, but that the guy seemed to be "obsessed" with spanking. He then recounted how once his father had spanked me, and then asked if that was the reason I'd slept with "half the guys in [my city]" - referencing my previous admission in the therapist's office that I'd been promiscuous in college. I started sobbing and asked him how he could say such a cruel thing to me. He said he was sorry, but then told me that he hoped I wasn't going to hold the fact that he said that over his head forever. I eventually was so upset that I decided to end the phone call, telling him that I didn't want to talk to him anymore if he was going to say things like that to me. A little bit after that, he emailed me and invited me to Thanksgiving dinner at his new girlfriend's house and also said this (might as well just post the whole thing, copying and pasting is easy!): "I hope you are OK. I hope you are thriving. I am sorry we have had such a rough time lately. I have not called because I really don't know what to do with you or what to say to you. I think we are probably going to have to forever disagree on your newly created or maybe just your newly disclosed meme that I am the parent from hell and the source of something bad in your life. According to you, I am so bad that you might not want to ever see me again unless I admit to being this bad parent and pay some sort of penance. This all of course disturbs me greatly but am still at a loss to know what to do about it since I disagree and can't admit to your meme or otherwise do what you seem to want. Having said that I would love to continue to be your Dad like I have been for the last 27 years and hopefully build on that in any positive way you want to. I have lots of positive suggestions too if you want to ever hear them and still want to have a dad. The suggestions don't include judging what you have done or are doing with your life, but might have ideas (and maybe even some help) for the future depending on what you want to do and where you want to go. ...[stuff about the Thanksgiving I didn't go to]... P.P.S. I am not as old as Nana or your other Nana, but I am getting old very quickly. On my next birthday I will be 60. I think life is way too short to dwell on negative thoughts of the past. I hope we can join up and be part of each other's life for the rest of the short time I will be here. There are no litmus tests or requirements to join up. The choice of course is yours, but I will really miss you if you don't join me by being my daughter on the rest of my journey. Love again, Dad." I replied: "Why would I want someone in my life who isn't interested in my thoughts or feelings? The way you treated me in the past still upsets me now, whether you want to hear about it or not. The fact that you don't, says a lot about what kind of parent you were, and person you apparently still are. The reason I'm bringing this stuff up now is because I was too afraid of you and the power you so carelessly wielded against me in the past, but I don't have time to be afraid anymore. You say you have "positive suggestions" for me, but why would I want to take suggestions from someone who doesn't first care to learn what I care about and is needlessly cruel to boot? I unfortunately don't see how it'd be beneficial for me in any way to continue to have a relationship with the person I've described above. However, if one day you become interested in change, I'm always open to the possibility of forgiveness and reconnection." And then his response: "​My heart and my door always have been and always will always be open to you unconditionally. I hope some day you want to walk into and through both." Last night, I decided I'd try to reach him one more time and called him. I really just wanted to convince him to go see the family therapist with me. Although he was initially open to the idea seeing that he'd gone to one session, he'd later told my mom that he wasn't interested in all the "psychobabble stuff" and that he didn't think he needed it. I told him I didn't want to get to know his new girlfriend, because I thought if he didn't try to change, she'd eventually go the way of all the others, and I didn't want my heart broken again. He said he understood, that he was sorry about having brought so many women into my life, and that he knows he's had some issues with women- which he attributed to mild Asperger's. Nevertheless, his apology did seem genuine and heartfelt, so I was starting to get hopeful. He then agreed to go to the family therapist with me. Except just a few minutes later, something switched. He first asked why I didn't want to get married and have a family. I asked him how he knew that I didn't want to get married and have a family. He said, "What guy would even want you, with your past?" Told me I needed to move back home, live with him, go to church (never mind that he is anything but a regular church-goer or even believer in god), and get some "morality" in my life. That I was the "rudest child he'd ever known." That I needed to respect him because he was my father. Oh, and also that he'd changed his mind about going to the therapist. I told him that I was never moving home, never going to church, and that I'd rather become become a hooker before accepting any more "help" from him (true). Then I hung up. --- If you're reading this, you are on the right track. You probably at least know a little bit about De-FOOing, about the concept of voluntary relationships, about parental abuse. So please don't wait! I first watched Stef's video on procrastination about two years ago. During those two years, I listened to a bunch of podcasts, listened to Stef a thousand times say "talk to your parents!" but I procrastinated (heh). Was it worth it? No! I lost my boyfriend. I wasted two years of my life not knowing the truth about my dad. Not knowing that perhaps my mom was capable of having a close relationship, and missing out on that. My dad is probably right that my life isn't exactly on the right track right now, but going on this journey has made me feel more hopeful, more alive, than I have ever been in my entire life. Call your parents, right now. Seriously. Don't wait. You don't have time.

I just got in a fight with my boyfriend and wanted to write out my thoughts and perhaps ask some of y'all for your input. So here goes: My boyfriend has a lot more money than me and thus pays for a lot of the "extra" things we do together, such as dinners, concert tickets, and even vacations. We just got in a fight about how he thinks I don't express enough gratitude for the things he does for me, which I suppose is true. I know that he's very generous with me and that I should be grateful, but I guess I have a hard time expressing it. Either that, or perhaps I really am spoiled and ungrateful :-( Anyway, I feel like the root of the problem, of course, goes back to my childhood. My dad and I had a lot of conflicts surrounding my supposed lack of gratitude. Even though I thought I felt grateful for the presents my relatives would send me for my birthday, Christmas, etc., I'd always procrastinate on thank-you notes, and my dad would nag and nag me about it. Once when I was 16, I guess I'd waited way too long to write the notes, and he came over to my mom's house (they're divorced, no surprise there) in a rage and took "his" car (he made sure I knew that the car I got to drive around was really HIS car that he was generously letting me borrow) away from me, probably for at least a week or two. Taking away my his car was his go-to punishment for various offenses such as ingratitude, disrespect, and the couple of times I got caught drinking. It's probably a slight exaggeration, but I feel like I must have been without the car my dad had ostensibly bought for me to use about half of my junior year. Although my mom usually went along with my dad's various punishments as to appear like a united parenting team, the thank-you note situation was when she'd finally had enough and started to let me use my grandpa's 20-year-old and probably unsafe to drive beater whenever my dad took away the other car. The conflicts with my dad continued into about my sophomore year of college, but this time it was about me being ungrateful for my dad paying for my college as well as my being disrespectful. I don't remember the exact details, but I know he threatened to not start/stop paying for college several times in between the application process and sophomore year. I'd also planned to bring the aforementioned car to college sophomore year, but we got into a fight a couple weeks before I planned to leave, and so he decided not to let me take it, even though having a car at school was something I'd been looking forward to for a long time. The actual catalyst for the fight was something small, but to him it was the straw that broke the camel's back, since apparently I'd been disrespectful and ungrateful all summer. After that fight, which culminated in me running out of the house in a rainstorm and sitting in the park across from our house sobbing, I actually told him I didn't want to talk to him again unless it was in a therapists office. He told me that he'd already spent enough on therapists with my mom and I (their marriage counseling 18 years prior and the one visit we'd made to a family therapist about a couple years prior to this). So we didn't talk for the entire semester. My mom ended up buying me a car to take to college, since she again thought what my dad did was unfair. He continued to pay for school that semester, since I think he had already done so when the fight happened, but I was very depressed the entire time and my grades reflected it. We reconciled during winter break but without really discussing in-depth what had happened. It was more like, "Ok well it's Christmas and I should start talking to my daughter again," and, "Ok I guess I'll forgive my dad because I love him and it's Christmas." After that he pretty much mellowed out didn't threaten to stop paying for school again and I suppose our relationship seemed to improve, although it's not like we're close or anything now. I'm now 26 and have yet to really discuss my feelings about my treatment as a teenager with my dad, even though I know I should. I guess these are my questions: 1) I don't know how I should feel about the car being taken away thing. I know Stef says children's property rights should be respected and I pretty much agree, but how about for a expensive and dangerous thing like a car? If parents get a 16-year old a car, should it just then be his property, to do with as he pleases? I know that the way my dad handled the situation can't be correct, but I guess I'm looking for positive example of what a peaceful-parent / teenage driver situation would look like. 2) Does it seem like a stretch to think that my dad's constantly forcing me to be grateful as a teenager would make me not as able to spontaneously express gratitude today? And if so, what do I do about it? I'm even starting to resent that my boyfriend seems to be putting me in the exact same situation that I was as a teenager, but I don't want to just say, "Well I'm not grateful because of my childhood and therefore you just have to deal with it!" because I know it must suck for him to feel unappreciated. I know the simple solution would be just to force myself to do it, but I don't want it to feel forced, I just want to be a somewhat normal person. :-/