mreyallior

powder, don't worry, I bring Iron-Dome with me ;p I didn't say "I want Israel to be free" you must have misread... When I said "let's talk to Canada" I meant let's talk with the bureaucrats at the border calling themselves Canada. You as a local have surely a better chance at changing their minds or the minds that support what they're doing. Just as the Palestinians have a better chance to stop Hamas then Israelis. If I can't come to Canada because of the border police, it's not your fault, but you surely can do more than me about it.

AustinJames, If you look at Israel as Tom and Hamas as Jerry, and all the other victims collectively as Bill, then there's no point in blaming Israel for Bills death. But this is a very foggy generalization. A better analogy would be to say Israeli citizens are Bill1 and Palestinian citizens are Bill2. Also, you have to compare Tom and Jerry's actions - as they are not doing the same actions. Hamas is using suicide bombers that blow up restaurants, buses and clubs - on purpose. They don't even claim it's collateral damage. They target civilians. Israel doesn't. At least, it claims it's collateral damage due to human shield practice (proven true in many cases!!!). Now, in the light of this evidence, of what Tom is doing and what Jerry is doing (different things), you have to judge who's at fault for Bill1's death and who's responsible for Bill2's death. Regarding of your theory that you share with Robert Pape, I'm not sure I understand it. I'm not even interested to study it. Responding with force against force makes sense to me. If there's anything you learnt from this Robert Pape, please raise the argument and provide evidence. So far, from what I understand, your argument is that "ending the occupation is the only solution to suicide bombers". I'm not trying to make a straw man here, if I misunderstood you please clarify, but in light of the fact that Muslim militias claim entire Israel is an occupation, your suggestion to end the occupation means Israelis have to learn to swim really good. The population density argument, that somehow makes it ok to put population at risk, is easy to debunk. The initiator of aggression is responsible for whatever tragic results that follows. Are rockets on Tel Aviv a self defense act? Surely not, so they are an act of aggression. "I don't discriminate between victims" You discriminate between aggressors. You hold Israel responsible for the death of non-combatant Palestinians. Why? Because you expect no moral standards from Palestinians who are widely supporting terrorist militias and also serving as willing human shields. "all the Israelis in those buses and restaurants you mentioned earlier were "human shields" No, because blowing up a bus or restaurant doesn't constitute self defense. You're not blowing up missile caches or missile launchers. I'm truly getting tired of sorting out the fallacies you spew in my direction. Blah. I thought you're going to establish agreeable principles before going on and applying them to the situation. Apparently you have a conclusion and you're just looking for the facts that will support it, ignoring those that invalidate your conclusion. You suggest an convenient analogy: "Let's say Jerry punches Tom in the face, then runs into a crowded street"... Let me suggest another analogy: "Tom fires shots at Jerry from a crowd that cheers him for doing this, and is openly supporting human shield practice to allow him to continue firing shots at Jerry." "why should those in Gaza, who have been born since the imprisonment" I can say all Israeis are imprisoned by all other countries, starting from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and blame even Canada for not letting us move there. Those damn Canadians are improsoning us! hmm.... is there anything that you say that does make sense, or am I destined to deal with endless fallacies and inappropriate analogies if I want to have a discussion with you... "I didn't draw a conclusion about Israel and Hamas" Yes you did. You concluded that Israel is to blame for the deaths that Hamas is causing with their aggression. "the area of disagreement is beyond the moral implications of taking a human shield" In your opinion, Hamas isn't turning Palestinians into human shields (willing and unwilling) so in your opinion it's beyond this question. In my opinion, it's not. "If you burn down his house with his family inside, it may be considered self-defense, but it surely cannot be morally justifiable" Ahhh.. here's your error. It can't be self defense, and immoral at the same time. Self defense means I have no choice, if I have no choice I am not evil. If it's my family or his, to hell with his. JamesP, What name-calling? Pointing out lies and the people who spew them out and calling them barefaced liars? "you said that you weren't going to engage with Waleed, and then two posts later, you engaged with him" How come you have a problem with my dishonesty, but not with Waleeds? You didn't seem to care that member Agalloch called me "retard", or that Waleed called my ideas "projection from Israeli shills", or the straw-man ad-hominem by J-William "he's here for some sort of emotional thing to do with his religion" J-William and Waleed have been caught lying barefaced. They keep flooding the thread in hopes to minimize the weight and visibility their lies. If you care about dishonesty, please ask them to stop. Both Waleed and J-William are pulling a Red Herring in this thread, by asking whether it's horrible that babies die, rather then who's to blame? To all the other hypocrites [pick your own politically correct, forum-guidelines-appropriate term] that still blame Israelis for not allowing people in Gaza to enter Israel freely... I have a challenge.. better then the previous one! Please wear a t-shirt that says "I'm proud to be gay" and take a walk around Gaza. Take your own medicine before suggesting it to me. Ok? I'm not advocating for democracy (a-la "the only democracy in the middle east" BS), I just don't want to see public executions where I live. Liberty Bill, Your philosophy just isn't. If I have a very good lock on my door, and you try to pick it the whole day, me having a very good lock doesn't turn you into less of a burglar just because you can't pick it. "Israel has been the aggressor in every conflict/battle since the 6 day war," Are you claiming that suicide bombers in buses and restaurants are a form of self defense? The rockets..? Interesting! (not really)

Besides AustinJames, there wasn't anybody on this thread who tried using first principles to establish whether we have human shields in this situation, who are they and what are the morals involved. You haven't debated principles. You keep pointing out "World Opinion" and "the headlines are killing any argument you might make" as if the opinions of al-jazeera and huffington post is a measurement of truth value. But you keep repeating your propaganda "Israel bombing schools" - Well, that's what happens when you skip logic and principles. If we would establish the principle that getting innocent people in the line of fire is immoral, it would be very clear that only Hamas is to blame for schools being attacked. (http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) You're stubbornly irrational and a liar: "self defense doesn't exist for a state because rights don't exist" non-sequitur "you can tell when something the state does is self defense because they get near universal support" (appeal to popularity) "it's not a person and so cannot practice "self defense"..." (So what Hamas is doing... there goes your whole point) "this "human shield" thing is just propaganda" (outright lie) "it was pretty bad when the Nazis did it" I didn't hear about any Jewish suicide bombers in 1934... You keep talking about the tragic loss of lives in Gaza, in an Appeal To The Stick, and pull a Red Herring in an effort to change the discussion from who is to blame to is it tragic or not. Once I proved you're a liar and irrational, the discussion with you is over. You can keep flooding the thread with lies and rubbish, but I'm not paying attention to you anymore. "If Israel lays down it's weapons, there would be" -SHARIA LAW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmMiydv94cw no thanks

J-William, Here you are again, on the FreedomainRadio board, talking about "World Opinion", and not talking about principles. Do you see the problem?

Hamas militants were probably firing on IDF troops from there. Hamas been already caught before using schools and hospitals as bases. It wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Unlike you, I can't lie barefaced. I have to wait to see the evidence. 1) Non sequitur 2) So Hamas doesn't defend anything, eh? You're in the FreedomainRadio board, saying something isn't true unless it gets near universal support. Genius!

1) I don't think they pose a too big threat, as Israel does have nukes and can turn them into dust in a button push 2) I want to leave Israel and will hopefully for many other reasons 3) If a new place was found for Israelis to move as a group, say, north Canada, I'll be the first one to move and to blame the ones staying behind for committing suicide. New Israel is a wonderful idea, let's talk to Canada!

Everything. State, religion, family... even the illusion that we can live in harmony with everyone if WE stay civilized in the face of aggression. We can and should always be civilized, but when faced with aggression, we should respond with aggression. Specifically, I used to believe we can live in peace with the Palestinians if WE change the say we behave towards them. I was a leftist before I became an anarchist. Today I realize that it takes two to tango. I don't blame myself of everything, don't blame myself if my parents are irrational or not empathetical. Don't blame Israel if Palestinians support Hamas. I used to try to rationalize the motive Palestinians have to attack, I used to believe that they are not lying, that it's just our media that distorts their perfectly rational message and motive to attack. I outgrew this illusion and understand that some people can be truly deranged, barbaric and evil. And evil people do lie quite a lot. I believe Israel needs to become a free society - and that doesn't mean letting everybody in. Free Israel would have to deal with neighboring states and wars. While I hope that when we get to that, there won't be any more wars, I do understand that the Muslim terrorist militias might still pose a threat and initiate aggression as they do now. I do remember Stefan talking about nuclear weapons in a free society, how it's perfectly logical for a free society to own them for protection. So if we can have them for protection, we can of course own conventional bombs for protection, and use them when attacked. The resulting deaths of innocent people is only to blame on the aggressor, not the one defending from the aggressor.

Samir, Ok, I'm going to vanquish my own illusion and wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Jew" and walk around in Gaza. Let's see if vanquishing my own illusion works. Wait... just to be on the safe side, let's do it step by step. First, I'll wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Muslim" and walk around in Tel Aviv, and let's see what happens. Then, you wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Jew" and walk around in Gaza... Now, you know it's not going to work out so good. Vanquishing your own illusion doesn't protect you from people who still hold to their own. If a group of delusional religious barbaric freaks fires rockets at me, the solution can't be to persuade myself that I'm the delusional. Clearly, if I make it a whole day in Tel Aviv with a t-shirt that says "Proud Muslim" - the Israelis are not so delusional... and clearly, if you don't return from Gaza alive after you've wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Jew" - the Palestinians are very delusional and barbaric. So yes, I agree with you and Stef about vanquishing illusions - that's exactly what the Palestinians have to do. The t-shirt challenge proves who's the delusional and barbaric, and I'll take it any day. Come on, let's do it. Seriously, if you blame Israelis of delusion just as much as Palestinians, the t-shirt challenge should get both of us killed. Want me to go ahead and start first? I'm pretty sure I'll be safe in Tel Aviv, no matter what my t-shirt says about me.

Waleed, You lied, I exposed you. You feel no remorse when you get caught lying. You just continue with more lies in an attempt to win by attrition. More proof of willing "human shields" tactic: Evidence of Hamas Shooting from Within Homes 0:39 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfbjO2WznEk&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=3 Hamas' War Crimes 0:41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqizsl1Vx-g&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=4 IDF Paratroopers Discover Tunnel Under a House in Gaza 0:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-WryT5Szzw&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=5 Hamas: We Place Civilians in the Line of Fire 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzFgIhFKII8&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Tpm80NvIo&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=12 Hamas Spokesperson: "We Are Leading Our People to Death" 0:16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXxAdzSHyC4&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=16 IDF Targets Weapons Caches in Civilian Neigborhood 1:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3xv7pI93M&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=25 Hamas kills... 1:14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmMiydv94cw&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-7UaIugheo&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=27 When Hamas Puts Civilians in the Line of Fire 1:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMO-_qEpgg0&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=28 Hamas Spokesperson Encourages Use of Human Shield 0:32 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXZEzbT0H1s&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=29 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBS-xQvm18U&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=31

I'm going to completely ignore the two dishonest members labmath2 and Waleed. Discussion with liars is futile.AustinJames,"The Palestinians are not the victims of the Israelis, and the Israelis are not victims of the Palestinians."Yes they both are. There are injustices made by Israel (Blocking the Gaza Port, Bombing their Airport, making them depend on goods from Israel - however, this is often done to prevent the growth and weaponizing of the militias), and the terror that Palestinian militias are doing does generate victims (suicide bombers, rockets... scary barbaric stuff)"The citizens of both Israel and Palestine are victims of state aggression."Are you comparing non-surgical-precision-strikes to suicide bombers on buses and restaurants? I think you are. You have to be very emotionally detached from Israelis and attached to Palestinians to be so biased to make such comparison."The state would have you believe that annihilation is imminent"No, it's rather the Arab leader themselves who openly declare their mission: Kill and humiliate all Israelis and take over all the land.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlucHGOAr1ohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hMUZ3wOXXc"The most advanced military in the world cannot strike with surgical precision enough to avoid civilian casualties, so the argument that the murdered children are purely a result of "human shield" strategy seems to me far-fetched."??? cannot strike with surgical precision....."human shield" strategy far-fetched??? exactly the opposite. Because surgical precision is impossible, non-combatants will get hurt, and this means we can relate to them as human shields - whether they've been takes as such, volunteered to be such, or whether they are such because they have nowhere to go. Anyway you look at it, they are the 3rd person in the room, the Bill (Tom and Jerry, remember?) in the room."if my grandfather wrongfully imprisons someone in his basement"Look, Gaza is a prison because the people in Gaza supported and joined terrorist militias. Actions have consequences. When the wall of separation was built, it was built with a consensus of the Israelis - The consensus came about thanks to the Palestinian terror. We wanted peace, they gave us terror, so we built a wall to protect ourselves. Now they cry it's a prison? Actions have consequences.Funny AustinJames, you started by suggesting we establish principles and then go to see how they apply, you brought up an inappropriate analogy, I brought up 2 more appropriate analogies, and you didn't continue the discussion on principles but rather rushed to draw a conclusion about Israel and Hamas.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11ff6yVw478

Labmath2, It doesn't matter whether my long deceased granddad stole the land from Palestinians, whether he got the land by virtue of winning in a war the Palestinians started (more likely), or whether it never belonged to Palestinians. Whatever my granddad did, doesn't give anyone any slight little right to try to kill me. So Hamas, firing rockets at me, is 100% guilty to whatever violence follows. You can keep trying and trying to pick something that will stick, but there's no excuse for the barbarism that Hamas is initiating. It makes Hamas responsible for all that results, including the many dead Palestinians. If you really care about the Palestinians, hold them accountable to normal moral standards, not lowered, and help them catch up with the 21 century and the rest of the world.

J-Williams, The size of Gaza doesn't change anything. If the terrorists can't avoid turning innocent Palestinians into human shields, they shouldn't engage in terror - otherwise, they are responsible for their lives. The current situation in Gaza is a result of crazy rocket attacks initiated by Hamas. This was totally avoidable, it's in no way shape or form "self defense" to fire rockets like they do. They are the aggressors, they initiated force, thus, they are responsible for the deaths not Israel. Now I know your emotional attachment to the Palestinians is greater than your incentive to think rationally, and this is why you trow whatever can stick, lies.... everything is fair in love and war... but this is a discussion - lies are not fair in a discussion. I pointed out your lies and distortions in red text above, so it's bold and everyone can easily see it.

SamuelS, That's not a strawman. You suggested the victim shouldn't fire if the aggressor takes a human shield. Why are you so keen to excuse the Palestinian use of human shields? You ignore it, skip any moral judgement on this use of human shields and jump to criticize Israel for firing at the terrorist and his human shield. You clearly don't appreciate the use of principles when making moral judgements: Principle #1 - The aggressor is responsible for the results that derive from his initiation of force Principle #2 - Whoever takes a human shield is responsible for the human shield's life

AustinJames, Congratulations for being the first responder to try a philosophical approach rather then a rhetoric full of logical fallacies and lies. Welcome! If Tom shoots Bill and Jerry, Tom is responsible for both deaths and Jerry is an asshole who also shares some responsibility for Bill's death. Tom could simply avoid the shooting and no one would die. Jerry forced Bill into high risk that got him killed. However.... What if the question goes like this: Tom has a grudge against Jerry. Since Tom knows Jerry got a gun too, he grabs Bill and uses him as human shield while firing shots at Jerry. Jerry has two options: (1) To die and not shoot Bill, or (2) To kill Bill and Tom. If Jerry kills Tom and Bill, he is not evil, because Tom was the initiator of aggression, and Tom forced Bill into the high risk situation that got him killed. The latter analogy is the appropriate one to describe the situation. Surely not the first. But, if you prefer, we can take a third analogy and test it too: Tom and Jerry have a grudge against each other. Tom grabs Bill, Jerry shoots and kills both. Since both Tom and Jerry intended to kill each other, Jerry had to shoot, and the guilt for Bills death is on Tom, as Tom grabbed Bill into the line of fire. Wesley, "your claim is the exact opposite of the available evidence" My claim is backed by evidence. Operation Defensive Shield was a hard retaliation to many weeks of daily terror. It worked. The terror stopped. Maybe it's not the way it was with other suicide bombers around the world, but it did work as expected. We had a suicide bomber blowing a bus, restaurant, mall, club... every day. Sometimes twice a day. Then, in less then a week it stopped. As expected. It's not so complicated as you try to make it. Everybody understands force. That's why we recommend owning guns against burglars, and not using "redistribution of wealth" to prevent burglary.

Wesley, You don't have to be a genius or study a 100 years research on suicide bombers to know that retaliating with great force puts an end to the support terrorist organizations get. You have dodged every argument I made so far. Calling my challenge an "emotional argument" is not an argument. In fact, the challenge goes to test the theory proposed by others, so it's very much in place. Labmath2, "May i ask why you think people think Israelis are more barbaric?" Because I read what people post. I even included screenshots as evidence. "what do you think the challenge will accomplish?" It will prove that the Israeli society is WAY MORE tolerant and civilized, and respectful of human life. "How much of the history of what happened and is currently happening are you familiar with and what is your take on the situation?" I don't care much about the history. Most times applying common sense to the present is more useful than taking history in consideration. History books are not that useful for those not using common sense anyway. My take on the situation is this: I would really want to see each society living it's own life, in a total separation. Much unlike the many leftist memes that run on the internet that suggest Love not War, I don't think those are the only two options. If Israelis and Palestinians can't get along, they should simply separate. My take on how to defend against repeated rocket attacks from a neighboring state is stated in the first post already. Retaliate with deadly force. Warn before, but strike hard with no tolerance if the attacks don't stop. Don't send troops in to risk their lives just to limit the collateral damage, but rather bomb from above. I truly believe that if Palestinians would understand that this would be the Israeli response, they wouldn't provoke such a response in the first place, and many more lives would be spared. "i do not think anyone think Israelis are completely responsible for the situation, neither do people think Hamas is a righteous organization" You leave a pretty HUGE spectrum of uncertainty with this foggy statement. I don't think Israel is a righteous organization, but I do think Hamas is completely responsible for the situation. They always provoke and initiate barbaric aggression. Such barbaric acts can never be counted as defense ops. So with Hamas it's always initiation. As initiators they are responsible for everything that proceeds. J-William, "he has clearly demonstrated that he's not here for the reason and evidence" Said the man who posted baseless accusations and outright lies. This is the Palestinian tactic - lie lie lie in hopes that the other side's position will not be heard and understood. Lie lie lie in hopes that something will stick. Very barbaric even for a conversation.