mreyallior

powder, don't worry, I bring Iron-Dome with me ;p I didn't say "I want Israel to be free" you must have misread... When I said "let's talk to Canada" I meant let's talk with the bureaucrats at the border calling themselves Canada. You as a local have surely a better chance at changing their minds or the minds that support what they're doing. Just as the Palestinians have a better chance to stop Hamas then Israelis. If I can't come to Canada because of the border police, it's not your fault, but you surely can do more than me about it.

AustinJames, If you look at Israel as Tom and Hamas as Jerry, and all the other victims collectively as Bill, then there's no point in blaming Israel for Bills death. But this is a very foggy generalization. A better analogy would be to say Israeli citizens are Bill1 and Palestinian citizens are Bill2. Also, you have to compare Tom and Jerry's actions - as they are not doing the same actions. Hamas is using suicide bombers that blow up restaurants, buses and clubs - on purpose. They don't even claim it's collateral damage. They target civilians. Israel doesn't. At least, it claims it's collateral damage due to human shield practice (proven true in many cases!!!). Now, in the light of this evidence, of what Tom is doing and what Jerry is doing (different things), you have to judge who's at fault for Bill1's death and who's responsible for Bill2's death. Regarding of your theory that you share with Robert Pape, I'm not sure I understand it. I'm not even interested to study it. Responding with force against force makes sense to me. If there's anything you learnt from this Robert Pape, please raise the argument and provide evidence. So far, from what I understand, your argument is that "ending the occupation is the only solution to suicide bombers". I'm not trying to make a straw man here, if I misunderstood you please clarify, but in light of the fact that Muslim militias claim entire Israel is an occupation, your suggestion to end the occupation means Israelis have to learn to swim really good. The population density argument, that somehow makes it ok to put population at risk, is easy to debunk. The initiator of aggression is responsible for whatever tragic results that follows. Are rockets on Tel Aviv a self defense act? Surely not, so they are an act of aggression. "I don't discriminate between victims" You discriminate between aggressors. You hold Israel responsible for the death of non-combatant Palestinians. Why? Because you expect no moral standards from Palestinians who are widely supporting terrorist militias and also serving as willing human shields. "all the Israelis in those buses and restaurants you mentioned earlier were "human shields" No, because blowing up a bus or restaurant doesn't constitute self defense. You're not blowing up missile caches or missile launchers. I'm truly getting tired of sorting out the fallacies you spew in my direction. Blah. I thought you're going to establish agreeable principles before going on and applying them to the situation. Apparently you have a conclusion and you're just looking for the facts that will support it, ignoring those that invalidate your conclusion. You suggest an convenient analogy: "Let's say Jerry punches Tom in the face, then runs into a crowded street"... Let me suggest another analogy: "Tom fires shots at Jerry from a crowd that cheers him for doing this, and is openly supporting human shield practice to allow him to continue firing shots at Jerry." "why should those in Gaza, who have been born since the imprisonment" I can say all Israeis are imprisoned by all other countries, starting from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and blame even Canada for not letting us move there. Those damn Canadians are improsoning us! hmm.... is there anything that you say that does make sense, or am I destined to deal with endless fallacies and inappropriate analogies if I want to have a discussion with you... "I didn't draw a conclusion about Israel and Hamas" Yes you did. You concluded that Israel is to blame for the deaths that Hamas is causing with their aggression. "the area of disagreement is beyond the moral implications of taking a human shield" In your opinion, Hamas isn't turning Palestinians into human shields (willing and unwilling) so in your opinion it's beyond this question. In my opinion, it's not. "If you burn down his house with his family inside, it may be considered self-defense, but it surely cannot be morally justifiable" Ahhh.. here's your error. It can't be self defense, and immoral at the same time. Self defense means I have no choice, if I have no choice I am not evil. If it's my family or his, to hell with his. JamesP, What name-calling? Pointing out lies and the people who spew them out and calling them barefaced liars? "you said that you weren't going to engage with Waleed, and then two posts later, you engaged with him" How come you have a problem with my dishonesty, but not with Waleeds? You didn't seem to care that member Agalloch called me "retard", or that Waleed called my ideas "projection from Israeli shills", or the straw-man ad-hominem by J-William "he's here for some sort of emotional thing to do with his religion" J-William and Waleed have been caught lying barefaced. They keep flooding the thread in hopes to minimize the weight and visibility their lies. If you care about dishonesty, please ask them to stop. Both Waleed and J-William are pulling a Red Herring in this thread, by asking whether it's horrible that babies die, rather then who's to blame? To all the other hypocrites [pick your own politically correct, forum-guidelines-appropriate term] that still blame Israelis for not allowing people in Gaza to enter Israel freely... I have a challenge.. better then the previous one! Please wear a t-shirt that says "I'm proud to be gay" and take a walk around Gaza. Take your own medicine before suggesting it to me. Ok? I'm not advocating for democracy (a-la "the only democracy in the middle east" BS), I just don't want to see public executions where I live. Liberty Bill, Your philosophy just isn't. If I have a very good lock on my door, and you try to pick it the whole day, me having a very good lock doesn't turn you into less of a burglar just because you can't pick it. "Israel has been the aggressor in every conflict/battle since the 6 day war," Are you claiming that suicide bombers in buses and restaurants are a form of self defense? The rockets..? Interesting! (not really)

Besides AustinJames, there wasn't anybody on this thread who tried using first principles to establish whether we have human shields in this situation, who are they and what are the morals involved. You haven't debated principles. You keep pointing out "World Opinion" and "the headlines are killing any argument you might make" as if the opinions of al-jazeera and huffington post is a measurement of truth value. But you keep repeating your propaganda "Israel bombing schools" - Well, that's what happens when you skip logic and principles. If we would establish the principle that getting innocent people in the line of fire is immoral, it would be very clear that only Hamas is to blame for schools being attacked. (http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) You're stubbornly irrational and a liar: "self defense doesn't exist for a state because rights don't exist" non-sequitur "you can tell when something the state does is self defense because they get near universal support" (appeal to popularity) "it's not a person and so cannot practice "self defense"..." (So what Hamas is doing... there goes your whole point) "this "human shield" thing is just propaganda" (outright lie) "it was pretty bad when the Nazis did it" I didn't hear about any Jewish suicide bombers in 1934... You keep talking about the tragic loss of lives in Gaza, in an Appeal To The Stick, and pull a Red Herring in an effort to change the discussion from who is to blame to is it tragic or not. Once I proved you're a liar and irrational, the discussion with you is over. You can keep flooding the thread with lies and rubbish, but I'm not paying attention to you anymore. "If Israel lays down it's weapons, there would be" -SHARIA LAW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmMiydv94cw no thanks

J-William, Here you are again, on the FreedomainRadio board, talking about "World Opinion", and not talking about principles. Do you see the problem?

Hamas militants were probably firing on IDF troops from there. Hamas been already caught before using schools and hospitals as bases. It wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Unlike you, I can't lie barefaced. I have to wait to see the evidence. 1) Non sequitur 2) So Hamas doesn't defend anything, eh? You're in the FreedomainRadio board, saying something isn't true unless it gets near universal support. Genius!

1) I don't think they pose a too big threat, as Israel does have nukes and can turn them into dust in a button push 2) I want to leave Israel and will hopefully for many other reasons 3) If a new place was found for Israelis to move as a group, say, north Canada, I'll be the first one to move and to blame the ones staying behind for committing suicide. New Israel is a wonderful idea, let's talk to Canada!

Everything. State, religion, family... even the illusion that we can live in harmony with everyone if WE stay civilized in the face of aggression. We can and should always be civilized, but when faced with aggression, we should respond with aggression. Specifically, I used to believe we can live in peace with the Palestinians if WE change the say we behave towards them. I was a leftist before I became an anarchist. Today I realize that it takes two to tango. I don't blame myself of everything, don't blame myself if my parents are irrational or not empathetical. Don't blame Israel if Palestinians support Hamas. I used to try to rationalize the motive Palestinians have to attack, I used to believe that they are not lying, that it's just our media that distorts their perfectly rational message and motive to attack. I outgrew this illusion and understand that some people can be truly deranged, barbaric and evil. And evil people do lie quite a lot. I believe Israel needs to become a free society - and that doesn't mean letting everybody in. Free Israel would have to deal with neighboring states and wars. While I hope that when we get to that, there won't be any more wars, I do understand that the Muslim terrorist militias might still pose a threat and initiate aggression as they do now. I do remember Stefan talking about nuclear weapons in a free society, how it's perfectly logical for a free society to own them for protection. So if we can have them for protection, we can of course own conventional bombs for protection, and use them when attacked. The resulting deaths of innocent people is only to blame on the aggressor, not the one defending from the aggressor.

Samir, Ok, I'm going to vanquish my own illusion and wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Jew" and walk around in Gaza. Let's see if vanquishing my own illusion works. Wait... just to be on the safe side, let's do it step by step. First, I'll wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Muslim" and walk around in Tel Aviv, and let's see what happens. Then, you wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Jew" and walk around in Gaza... Now, you know it's not going to work out so good. Vanquishing your own illusion doesn't protect you from people who still hold to their own. If a group of delusional religious barbaric freaks fires rockets at me, the solution can't be to persuade myself that I'm the delusional. Clearly, if I make it a whole day in Tel Aviv with a t-shirt that says "Proud Muslim" - the Israelis are not so delusional... and clearly, if you don't return from Gaza alive after you've wear a t-shirt that says "Proud Jew" - the Palestinians are very delusional and barbaric. So yes, I agree with you and Stef about vanquishing illusions - that's exactly what the Palestinians have to do. The t-shirt challenge proves who's the delusional and barbaric, and I'll take it any day. Come on, let's do it. Seriously, if you blame Israelis of delusion just as much as Palestinians, the t-shirt challenge should get both of us killed. Want me to go ahead and start first? I'm pretty sure I'll be safe in Tel Aviv, no matter what my t-shirt says about me.

Waleed, You lied, I exposed you. You feel no remorse when you get caught lying. You just continue with more lies in an attempt to win by attrition. More proof of willing "human shields" tactic: Evidence of Hamas Shooting from Within Homes 0:39 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfbjO2WznEk&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=3 Hamas' War Crimes 0:41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqizsl1Vx-g&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=4 IDF Paratroopers Discover Tunnel Under a House in Gaza 0:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-WryT5Szzw&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=5 Hamas: We Place Civilians in the Line of Fire 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzFgIhFKII8&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Tpm80NvIo&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=12 Hamas Spokesperson: "We Are Leading Our People to Death" 0:16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXxAdzSHyC4&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=16 IDF Targets Weapons Caches in Civilian Neigborhood 1:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3xv7pI93M&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=25 Hamas kills... 1:14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmMiydv94cw&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-7UaIugheo&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=27 When Hamas Puts Civilians in the Line of Fire 1:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMO-_qEpgg0&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=28 Hamas Spokesperson Encourages Use of Human Shield 0:32 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXZEzbT0H1s&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=29 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBS-xQvm18U&list=PLN4IwhiPAXNWZwaHy7PVfyfFiJpyNQsgS&index=31

I'm going to completely ignore the two dishonest members labmath2 and Waleed. Discussion with liars is futile.AustinJames,"The Palestinians are not the victims of the Israelis, and the Israelis are not victims of the Palestinians."Yes they both are. There are injustices made by Israel (Blocking the Gaza Port, Bombing their Airport, making them depend on goods from Israel - however, this is often done to prevent the growth and weaponizing of the militias), and the terror that Palestinian militias are doing does generate victims (suicide bombers, rockets... scary barbaric stuff)"The citizens of both Israel and Palestine are victims of state aggression."Are you comparing non-surgical-precision-strikes to suicide bombers on buses and restaurants? I think you are. You have to be very emotionally detached from Israelis and attached to Palestinians to be so biased to make such comparison."The state would have you believe that annihilation is imminent"No, it's rather the Arab leader themselves who openly declare their mission: Kill and humiliate all Israelis and take over all the land.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlucHGOAr1ohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hMUZ3wOXXc"The most advanced military in the world cannot strike with surgical precision enough to avoid civilian casualties, so the argument that the murdered children are purely a result of "human shield" strategy seems to me far-fetched."??? cannot strike with surgical precision....."human shield" strategy far-fetched??? exactly the opposite. Because surgical precision is impossible, non-combatants will get hurt, and this means we can relate to them as human shields - whether they've been takes as such, volunteered to be such, or whether they are such because they have nowhere to go. Anyway you look at it, they are the 3rd person in the room, the Bill (Tom and Jerry, remember?) in the room."if my grandfather wrongfully imprisons someone in his basement"Look, Gaza is a prison because the people in Gaza supported and joined terrorist militias. Actions have consequences. When the wall of separation was built, it was built with a consensus of the Israelis - The consensus came about thanks to the Palestinian terror. We wanted peace, they gave us terror, so we built a wall to protect ourselves. Now they cry it's a prison? Actions have consequences.Funny AustinJames, you started by suggesting we establish principles and then go to see how they apply, you brought up an inappropriate analogy, I brought up 2 more appropriate analogies, and you didn't continue the discussion on principles but rather rushed to draw a conclusion about Israel and Hamas.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11ff6yVw478

Labmath2, It doesn't matter whether my long deceased granddad stole the land from Palestinians, whether he got the land by virtue of winning in a war the Palestinians started (more likely), or whether it never belonged to Palestinians. Whatever my granddad did, doesn't give anyone any slight little right to try to kill me. So Hamas, firing rockets at me, is 100% guilty to whatever violence follows. You can keep trying and trying to pick something that will stick, but there's no excuse for the barbarism that Hamas is initiating. It makes Hamas responsible for all that results, including the many dead Palestinians. If you really care about the Palestinians, hold them accountable to normal moral standards, not lowered, and help them catch up with the 21 century and the rest of the world.

J-Williams, The size of Gaza doesn't change anything. If the terrorists can't avoid turning innocent Palestinians into human shields, they shouldn't engage in terror - otherwise, they are responsible for their lives. The current situation in Gaza is a result of crazy rocket attacks initiated by Hamas. This was totally avoidable, it's in no way shape or form "self defense" to fire rockets like they do. They are the aggressors, they initiated force, thus, they are responsible for the deaths not Israel. Now I know your emotional attachment to the Palestinians is greater than your incentive to think rationally, and this is why you trow whatever can stick, lies.... everything is fair in love and war... but this is a discussion - lies are not fair in a discussion. I pointed out your lies and distortions in red text above, so it's bold and everyone can easily see it.

SamuelS, That's not a strawman. You suggested the victim shouldn't fire if the aggressor takes a human shield. Why are you so keen to excuse the Palestinian use of human shields? You ignore it, skip any moral judgement on this use of human shields and jump to criticize Israel for firing at the terrorist and his human shield. You clearly don't appreciate the use of principles when making moral judgements: Principle #1 - The aggressor is responsible for the results that derive from his initiation of force Principle #2 - Whoever takes a human shield is responsible for the human shield's life

AustinJames, Congratulations for being the first responder to try a philosophical approach rather then a rhetoric full of logical fallacies and lies. Welcome! If Tom shoots Bill and Jerry, Tom is responsible for both deaths and Jerry is an asshole who also shares some responsibility for Bill's death. Tom could simply avoid the shooting and no one would die. Jerry forced Bill into high risk that got him killed. However.... What if the question goes like this: Tom has a grudge against Jerry. Since Tom knows Jerry got a gun too, he grabs Bill and uses him as human shield while firing shots at Jerry. Jerry has two options: (1) To die and not shoot Bill, or (2) To kill Bill and Tom. If Jerry kills Tom and Bill, he is not evil, because Tom was the initiator of aggression, and Tom forced Bill into the high risk situation that got him killed. The latter analogy is the appropriate one to describe the situation. Surely not the first. But, if you prefer, we can take a third analogy and test it too: Tom and Jerry have a grudge against each other. Tom grabs Bill, Jerry shoots and kills both. Since both Tom and Jerry intended to kill each other, Jerry had to shoot, and the guilt for Bills death is on Tom, as Tom grabbed Bill into the line of fire. Wesley, "your claim is the exact opposite of the available evidence" My claim is backed by evidence. Operation Defensive Shield was a hard retaliation to many weeks of daily terror. It worked. The terror stopped. Maybe it's not the way it was with other suicide bombers around the world, but it did work as expected. We had a suicide bomber blowing a bus, restaurant, mall, club... every day. Sometimes twice a day. Then, in less then a week it stopped. As expected. It's not so complicated as you try to make it. Everybody understands force. That's why we recommend owning guns against burglars, and not using "redistribution of wealth" to prevent burglary.

Wesley, You don't have to be a genius or study a 100 years research on suicide bombers to know that retaliating with great force puts an end to the support terrorist organizations get. You have dodged every argument I made so far. Calling my challenge an "emotional argument" is not an argument. In fact, the challenge goes to test the theory proposed by others, so it's very much in place. Labmath2, "May i ask why you think people think Israelis are more barbaric?" Because I read what people post. I even included screenshots as evidence. "what do you think the challenge will accomplish?" It will prove that the Israeli society is WAY MORE tolerant and civilized, and respectful of human life. "How much of the history of what happened and is currently happening are you familiar with and what is your take on the situation?" I don't care much about the history. Most times applying common sense to the present is more useful than taking history in consideration. History books are not that useful for those not using common sense anyway. My take on the situation is this: I would really want to see each society living it's own life, in a total separation. Much unlike the many leftist memes that run on the internet that suggest Love not War, I don't think those are the only two options. If Israelis and Palestinians can't get along, they should simply separate. My take on how to defend against repeated rocket attacks from a neighboring state is stated in the first post already. Retaliate with deadly force. Warn before, but strike hard with no tolerance if the attacks don't stop. Don't send troops in to risk their lives just to limit the collateral damage, but rather bomb from above. I truly believe that if Palestinians would understand that this would be the Israeli response, they wouldn't provoke such a response in the first place, and many more lives would be spared. "i do not think anyone think Israelis are completely responsible for the situation, neither do people think Hamas is a righteous organization" You leave a pretty HUGE spectrum of uncertainty with this foggy statement. I don't think Israel is a righteous organization, but I do think Hamas is completely responsible for the situation. They always provoke and initiate barbaric aggression. Such barbaric acts can never be counted as defense ops. So with Hamas it's always initiation. As initiators they are responsible for everything that proceeds. J-William, "he has clearly demonstrated that he's not here for the reason and evidence" Said the man who posted baseless accusations and outright lies. This is the Palestinian tactic - lie lie lie in hopes that the other side's position will not be heard and understood. Lie lie lie in hopes that something will stick. Very barbaric even for a conversation.

Waleed, and everyone else who claims that the Israelis are a more barbaric culture.. I offer a challenge! 1) I'll walk a whole day week month in Tel Aviv with a t-shirt that says "Proud Muslim" in Arabic. 2) You'll walk a whole day in Gaza with a shirt that says "Proud Jew" in Hebrew. Any day! End of 2001 / Beginning of 2002, we at Israel have experienced a crazy wave of terror, exploding buses, restaurants, at least once or twice a day a suicide bomber would blow up in Israel. For more than a month, people didn't leave their homes besides to work and back. It completely stopped the israeli society. People got very angry, and shifted very much to the the right, voting Sharon. Before that wave of terror, most Israelis viewed Sharon as a fanatic right wing war loving sociopath. When faced with deadly terror on a daily basis, people understood that such a person is what's needed. They voted, he got in, and delivered. Days after getting in office, he launched Operation Defensive Shield which lasted 40 days. The terror attacks on Israel stopped completely very few days after it began, and the Israeli society returned to their normal day to day life very fast. I was there, I remember very good! They want the entire country, they consider all of Israel to be occupied territory. They want us to live under Sharia law, or better, drink the water of the sea. What.. you think I'm exaggerating? think I'm wrong? Take the t-shirt challenge ^ I posted here and see what it's like to live among this culture you're suggesting that I live with.

"Human shields don't die if you don't defend yourself." - Very interesting philosophy. Waleed, "perception that is purported by Israel...Palestinians are suicidal crazies" They are. Countless of videos show that they are even happy to testify about being such. So why deny it now? Why such rank hypocrisy? Why lying Waleed? Can't you stay honest for one paragraph? damn... "The act of taking a "human shield" would necessitate that a Palestinian militiaman, at gunpoint" No it won't. They can be willing human shields or unaware human shields as well. "the ridiculous nature of the claim of "human shields"...one of the most densely populated places on the planet." So Palestinians shouldn't start with aggression if they care about each other. The fragility of their situation isn't a problem Israel has to face when defending itself. It is the people of Gaza that need to think twice (or ten times) whether they can allow themselves to initiate aggression or support the initiation of aggression. "Restricting the freedom of movement of people and materials into Gaza is an act of violence" No it isn't, it's free choice. What you mean is restriction or people moving into Israel. This restriction is a result of stubborn cultural choice to engage in terror. Blowing up restaurants, buses, dance clubs, stabbing children and parents in their sleep, kidnapping, stealing and what not. Barbarism. This restriction is necessary because Islam is a culture of barbarism, where sisters are murdered for the "honor of the family" and gay man are put to death too. Give me a break. "Israel frequently bombs Gaza" Israel bombs terrorists. If the terrorists had a base where they stay 6 days a week, it would be very easy to target them - they know this obviously so they prefer to stay at home, and by this, turning everybody around them, willing, knowing or not, to a human shield. Look, if I start shooting people from my car, and my family is with me in the car, it is completely stupid to claim that "I'm not turning them into human shields, the car is just too small!" "Israel uses chemical weapons on hospitals" Evidence? none. http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Britains-iObserveri-issues-correction-Israel-did-not-use-chemical-weapons-In-Gaza-325529 "If it cared about the lives of Gazans, it wouldn't be..." doing anything? Israel is defending itself against barbaric Muslim terrorists and all the blame for the death of innocent Palestinians should go directly to those barbaric Muslim terrorists. "Hamas is still around even after more than a decade of Israel trying to destroy it." So Israel should do less? "The illogic they are selling is that Hamas holds civilian hostages in places where their weapons' caches are located" oh yeah? look at this link: http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools "is there a place in overpopulated Gaza where there are no civilians?" Not Israel's problem. "There are so many obvious questions that can be asked which poke holes" You and many other like you, prove that for you, asking questions is only a means to distract honest conversation about the barbaric culture you support and deny at the same time.

J-William,"just propaganda" - There is solid evidence to the human shield practice, in form of countless videos and testimonies of Palestinians proud of the practice. I guess you want me to believe what you say and not my lying eyes and ears. Ok, sure."Israeli state is recklessly bombing a civilian population" - How do you know?"it's not a person and so cannot practice self defense" - people can act as agents for other people under threat. Private security firms can do that. The state has not just a right to do so, but an obligation, deriving from the fact that they prohibit the people from getting armed and starting their own private security forces. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the state, and everything to do with the fact that people, because of the coercion, depend of the state provided security.This argument was raised in the facebook discussions which I posted in the beginning of this thread.

1) How do you know that the leaders don't have human shields, and that it's easy and possible to assassinate them in short time? 2) Aside from errors and accidents (which still lay the guilt on Hamas), how do you know that Israel is targeting innocent people on purpose, just like Hamas? If you have no other way, and you know shelling Hamas targets is effective, how can you criticize Israelis actions while at the same time say they have the right to defend themselves?

Slavik, 1) Assassinations are many times difficult or impossible to do without causing the death of human shields. If you are completely against the killing of all human shields (the innocent ones and the willing ones), you are basically against assassinations as self defense too. Are you suggesting that Israelis should be sitting ducks to random attacks by Muslims? 2) You too commit the sin of patronizing the Palestinians, as you only condemn their attacks on Israel, and do not blame them for using human shields. 3) So basically, by not picking sides, you condemn Israel's right and duty to defense. You say you're against Israel launching attacks, but what do you mean by this generalization? Are Israel's attacks just a provocation / initiation of aggression? I would appreciate if you'll be less vague and say what kind of realistic, effective self defense actions do you consider legitimate, and explain when and where they have worked before, or why you think they would work. Experience shows that striking back hard makes terror groups stop their attacks, they lose the support of the people, they lose their lives, weapons, it's ugly but it's working. Have you got another effective way to defend Israel? Or are you against Israel's right to self defend and expect us to die just because the terrorists are keeping their children next to their rocket launchers.

"...is a cage surrounded by walls built by neighbors" LanceD, tell me something, before these walls were built, do you remember how many Israelis drove down to Gaza and blown themselves upstabbed a whole famliy in their sleep? Why do you equate such acts of barbaric terror to the act of escape from prison? I think you should watch that Pat Condell video I posted up here and stop making excuses for barbaric cultures. Giving moral-discounts to barbaric people does not make them more civilized, just more barbaric.

I wanted to share with you a discussion I had with Larken Rose. Actually, I wanted to share another discussion I had with a libertarian friend, on the same topic. The short version is: Larken: I rather die than kill innocent people Me: If you take a human-shield, YOU are responsible for his death, not I ...and it goes to: "Eyal, one fine test of how stupid someone's philosophy is, is to ask, if the whole world shared that philosophy, what would things be like? Well, if the whole world believed as YOU do, as soon as ONE act of aggression occurs, there will be perpetual mass murder, as the victim slaughters innocents in the name of "self defense," and then some of HIS victims do the same, and so on, forever." "Larken, what you're doing here is a Red Herring, as the issue is not the universality, but whether we recognize Israel's bombing of Gaza as self-defense or not." If you find the topic interesting, I invite you to read from the attached screenshot(s) (I'll upload the other discussions/debates later) Screenshot: (debate with Larken) https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7790656_95600811_928427 Screenshot 2: (debate with a friend and his friends) https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7790656_95600811_929516 Screenshot 3: (debate with random anarchists on Jeff Berwick's wall) https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7790656_95600811_937136 Screenshot 4: (debate with the same guy from screenshot#2, again) https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7790656_95600811_938601 I also recommend watching this video by Pat Condell, which I posted in those debates: And this short video too And just for laughs: The entire situation in less than 1 minute video http://tinypic.com/r/2mmir9s/8

I find Schema therapy amazing, read a lot about it, experienced it from going through some of the "modes" myself in the past, and by observing others as they went through quick schema changes, I think, no, I'm sure it's pretty valid. I think every therapist should know it. Schema Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder http://ld106.inmotionhosting.com/~therap7/schematherapy.com/Borderline%20slides%20Feb%202004%20a_files/frame.htm The 5 Faces of Borderline Personality Disorder

I'm looking for a therapist in Paris and self help books in french for my friend there. Anything about depression, nihilism, grandiosity, substance abuse and lonelyness.