annadios

Thanks, all, for your replies. Sorry it's been so long. Since you all have taken the care to ask, I suppose I will address the two general inquiries that seem to have come up in most of the replies. 1) What are my husband's thoughts/attitudes toward the difference in our viewpoints and our marriage in general? He is completely willing to go to therapy (secular therapy) - insomuch as we can afford it - and his desire is to work things out. However, I can't help but think that this is partially due to his religious background that strongly advises against divorce in almost any and all circumstances, and not necessarily because working it out would be best. I am also willing to go to therapy, not necessarily for the purpose of working it out, but rather to decide if I want to work it out. I would say, with regard to my atheism, he is understanding and accepting for the most part, but not really very curious at all. I say "for the most part" because, while he acts like he is accepting of it to my face, he will express vague worry to my mom occasionally in their phone conversations (she is aware that I was having serious doubts about my Christian faith, though she does not know that I am now an atheist, thus his vagueness - by the way, my mother is a fundamentalist Christian). So, this makes me feel as though he wants me to believe he is totally understanding, but in actuality he feels as though he needs someone who is "on his side" with whom to commiserate - which I do understand on some level. I say he is not very curious because, while we did discuss on several occasions my thought processes during my "deconversion," he has more recently asked me not to watch/listen to atheist YouTube videos and other atheist audio/video materials while he is within earshot because he says he is tired of hearing what he describes as "the same things from the same angry atheists over and over again." So, to those who have asked if he would be willing to watch Stefan's videos on atheism, the answer would be, unfortunately, no. When he brings up a topic like Satan affecting events in the world, I have tried asking sincerely "So, why exactly do you believe in a literal being called Satan?" This kind of conversation always either ends up with him starting to raise his voice because he gets frustrated at having to explain himself in detail or with him just admitting he can't prove any of his religious beliefs, but he's experienced it himself, so he chooses to believe it. The latter is more disturbing and disheartening to me because I know I would never have children with someone who openly admits they believe things for no reason at all and would want to pass that kind of thinking on to my children. 2) Are there any other factors (besides our differing world views) that would lead me to the option of divorce? Yes, he was my first love and I still am very attached to him at least as a friend. At the same time, looking back on our entire 6-year relationship history with a clear head now, I think a major reason I married him was because we had slept together on a regular basis before we got married and both felt incredibly guilty about it because that's how we were raised to think. As best I can remember, and as messed up as it sounds to me now, I think at least I - and maybe he as well - thought we were obligated to get married since we had taken each other's virginity. So, am I head-over-heels in love with him still? No. Is he with me? I think he is much closer to being head-over-heels than I am at least. I suppose I should also mention that there have been two separate instances, about 18 months apart, the most recent of which happened in October 2013 where he has solicited attention or company from women online (strangers, not women he knows). He hasn't, as far as I can tell, physically cheated, but obviously the bond of trust in the relationship was shot to shit when those instances came to my attention. He did not voluntarily admit to either instance, but rather I found out about them both quite accidentally. Needless to say, this is also playing a huge part in my decision making as far as whether to stay in the marriage. The reason I didn't list this as my primary concern for our marriage is that I think if his online escapades were the only issue in our relationship, we could work through it with a lot of therapy. I'm fairly certain his online activities are due in large part to the fact that neither of us had any kind of dating experience prior to our getting married and I think he was understandably curious as to what it would be like to have female attention (it's very important to note I am not making an excuse for him, just an explanation). At the end of the day, I know it is my decision and my decision only. I don't want to rush into such a permanent decision - I think I've done enough of that for one lifetime. So, I'm taking my sweet time, weighing all factors with reason, not emotions, as my guide, and hopefully getting the maximum amount of input possible from insightful people such as yourselves. Again, thank you all so much for your replies and encouragement and please feel free to reply again in light of this new information.

Good question. Yes, he knows I am an atheist and we communicated about it throughout my "deconversion" process. He does not consider it a deal breaker for the marriage on his end. He even says if I decide I won't have children with a Christian husband, that would not be a deal breaker for him. But I know him and I know that he doesn't know himself well at all. I can vividly picture us/him 5-10 years down the road with extreme tension in our relationship because he won't let go of his dream of a family that he's always had, even though he thinks he can let it go for the sake of keeping the marriage alive.

I've been married for 3 1/2 years. I was 20 and he was 28 when we got married. At the time, we were both devout, conservative, fundamentalist Christians who were raised by parents who sheltered us from just about every opposing viewpoint and religiously indoctrinated us from the time we were born. I found my way out of religion and am now an atheist. My worldview has changed completely over the past two years and I consider myself a rationalist. My husband, on the other hand, is still a very anti-rational thinker and a Christian as I once was. And I do not know what to do. I don't blame my upbringing for my own choices; I take full ownership for them, since I was an adult at the time I decided to enter into a marriage relationship. I take responsibility for the fact that I did not dedicate time to acquiring adequate self-knowledge prior to making a lifelong commitment involving another person. I take responsibility for the fact that I did not take the time to get to know my husband for as long as I should have. And I take responsibility for the decision to get married at an age that was too young. I see now, too late, that I was an utter idiot with my choices. I value keeping my word and I know I, as a consenting adult, made a promise to him on our wedding day and it would be a terrible thing for me to go back on my word. At the same time, we had always planned on children, but I do not think it wise in the slightest to bring children into the mix, one parent being a strict rationalist/atheist and the other an anti-rationalist/religiously driven thinker. Our beliefs about the most fundamental areas of life are now not only different, but they are diametrically opposed and raising children in the middle of that would be lunacy. Aside from the issue of children, I just don't know how the marriage can ever have a hope of being happy when we have such conflicting values and beliefs. But I also desperately do not want to go back on my word and break a promise I made by ending the marriage. I know therapy is probably the first step to figuring things out (whether that leads to staying together or separating). Any other suggestions or advice?

Thank you all for your stories. They have each really resonated with me in different ways and it's reassuring to know that I'm not alone (of course I cognitively know I'm not alone, but that's different than actually experiencing the support). I've attached the letter I've come up with so far so you all can review and offer suggestions if you want...sorry, it's a bit longer than Josh's letter =p Letter.doc

Jay Paul: it's tough when you're not completely independent of your parents (I presume maybe you are partially or fully dependent on them for college expenses or summer housing while not at college?) to tell them something that could cause them some not-so-positive feelings toward you. Definitely if you're in danger of being cut off financially or something like that, I'd delay coming out to them. But the counseling thing sounds like a prudent idea. I had not thought of that - my school offers therapy as well, though the problem of my family not all living in the same state would still exist for me. I have completely revamped my coming out letter and I plan to get up the courage to send it in the next week, so I would gladly post the entire letter on this thread and let you know what kind of reactions I get to it if you're interested. I know I'm certainly interested to see what is going to transpire! Wesley: I actually do not plan on telling my father either...ever. But that's because of alcohol and drug addiction issues and due to those, he is an incredibly irrational person who could potentially be dangerous to me if he knew. But I have no such concerns with any other family member. I'm actually expecting fairly benign responses, though I'm sure there will be concern for my eternal wellbeing and curiosity as to how I ended up not believing (at least I hope there is curiosity - that's the best I can hope for I think). I guess I've been pretending to be a Christian for the past couple months still because I haven't felt mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with the emotional responses I'm sure I'll get. In other words, I guess I've just been "psyching myself up." Edi: Well, that's one way to do it! I certainly wish that was an option for me! If I were to get plastered so as to make it easier to tell them, I think they might think worse of me for getting shit-faced than they would for being an atheist...though maybe if I was wasted, that would detract from the atheism part...hmmm....

I definitely don't think it holds water. A parent may beat their child when they are very young and the child may not consciously remember later in life, but that doesn't make the violence okay and it absolutely doesn't mean it will not affect their mental development/health later in life as well. My mom cares for elderly people for a living and some of her clients have such severe cases of mentally degenerative diseases that you could slap them across the face and 5-10 minutes later they would not remember you had done it, but you could not argue that this is a moral action just because they don't consciously retain the memory. I think "the baby won't remember having her ears pierced" is a way to make the parents feel better about doing it and, perhaps less directly, a way to devalue the baby's experience in the here and now. I never understood why "she won't remember it" made up for the fact that she ACTUALLY did experience the pain, confusion, and mental upset. Now that I think about it, it seems like "she won't remember" is being slyly used to convince the adults involved that the baby doesn't actually experience the piercing. Hmmm....

As far as I understand, your question is about my intention in and reasoning behind revealing my nonbelief in god/s and what good comes out of it. Well, for me it comes down to simply being an open, honest person with the people I care about. My in-laws assume I am just as religious as they are and they act and speak to me based on that assumption, so I feel deceitful when I just go along with it. For instance, if I keep on contriving excuses to not go to church functions with my sister-in-law, she will probably begin to take it a bit personally after a while, whereas, if she knew it wasn't personal, but rather a matter of differing world views, I think that would be a much happier situation in the long run. Another reason that applies to me, but not necessarily to everyone, is that I have a very young niece and nephew who are being indoctrinated by their fundamentalist Christian parents. Now, I don't plan on imposing my views forcefully onto them in any way, but I really think it's helpful for kids to know that not everyone agrees with how they/their parents think, as that is their natural assumption until they reach a certain age. Just by being an "out" atheist and a normal, moral person in their lives, I can show my niece and nephew that everyone does not agree with their parents and that it's okay not to agree. Anyway, I hope that answered the question. Unless your question was about why I would need to inform people on social networks that I am an atheist...in that case, I don't really know that I need to. I am pondering how vocal I should be on social networks though (once my family is in the loop, of course).

I'm am a fairly new atheist and have not "come out" to anyone but my husband as of yet. He is supportive and empathetic though he still identifies as a Christian. I am very nearly ready to come out to my husband's immediate family and one very close friend, as they all still presume me to be a devout Christian as they are and they keep asking me to attend and/or help out with church events and I feel like a fraud making up excuses for why I can't. I think calling a family meeting to announce my nonbelief seems melodramatic, but all the resources I've found online seem to just assume I will use this format when coming out to my family. My problem with this lies in that my father-in-law is working/living out of state and my close friend is also out of state for school. On top of this, everyone in the family has very busy schedules that would be hard or impossible to synchronize for a big family get-together so that I could tell them all in person. While I'd love for everyone to find out about my nonbelief in the most organic way possible (in conversation), I don't want anyone finding out secondhand, which would be unavoidable I think; I want everyone to hear it directly from me. I have a "coming out" letter almost finished and edited, but now that I'm reading all these things online that assume an in-person meeting is the way to go, I'm second guessing myself about whether to use an emailed letter as my method. I think I would communicate more effectively and thoroughly in a letter, but I also think it could make things a bit weird since it puts the ball completely in their court to come talk to me about anything they might want to ask or say. I am most interested in the story of anyone who has religious family and can relate to what it's like to be surrounded by people who assume you believe the same way they do until you contradict that assumption. And I'm interested specifically in the story of anyone who "came out" to their religious family by some means other than a dramatic family meeting. Is there any great way to do this? Is the letter an entirely bad idea? As a side question: to what extent do you address religious friends' and acquaintances' religiously motivated posts on social networks? If someone posts something specifically about atheists that is just ridiculous and makes a habit of publishing falsehoods about evolution, etc., do you just roll your eyes and ignore them, or do you think certain things are worth addressing?

Thanks, I think that is probably what I'll do. The "girls' day" has been postponed and the piercing is not happening today, so I guess I have a bit of time to ponder what to say. I really do want to communicate my reasoning so they don't just perceive it as an arbitrary preference of mine to not want to see my niece cry. I just have to try to work that in using some tact. Thankfully they did not circumcise their son! My husband has a pretty solid relationship with them. However, when confronted with even the gentlest constructive criticism on their parenting, they never fail to clam up, become defensive, and sometimes they get on a high horse and act like they are good parents simply by virtue of having gotten knocked up twice (makes no sense). My husband actually wrote a very heartfelt letter to his sister begging her not to go through with something so unnecessarily painful for the baby. He even teared up while writing it last night because he has such a soft spot for his niece. He gave the letter to his sister this morning and she immediately became very upset and yelled at him that he needed to just drop it and agree to disagree and that she is the mother and she knows best, etc. My husband and I are not parents yet and whenever my husband has brought up something about his sister's parenting, her number one knee-jerk defense is "when you have children, then you can come talk to me about parenting." My husband and his sisters were brought up in your run-of-the-mill violent, authoritarian household where the only way to deal with insubordinate children was to hit them. My brother-in-law (father of my niece who is about to get her ears pierced) was brought up similarly by parents whose mantra was "I'm not here to be your friend." As far as their future relationship with their children, I am actually in the process of drafting an email to send to them with Stefan's video "How to Have a Great Relationship With Your Children in 20 Years." Since they also believe spanking and indoctrinating their children with religion are integral parts of being a good parent, ear piercing is actually not my biggest concern for their children. I'm making a last ditch effort to talk sense to them through Stefan's video. I say "last ditch" because my sister-in-law, unfortunately, has made it very clear that she is fed up with anyone trying to offer advice that is in opposition to the way they wish to parent. Thank you for the insights. For now, I think I will do my best to muster the courage to be as blunt as possible about why I will not be attending the ear piercing ritual.

I am the proud and loving auntie of a 9-month-old niece and more than anything, I do not want harm to come to her...especially not at the hands of her own parents. Unfortunately, her mother (my husband's sister) has decided to have the baby's ears pierced tomorrow afternoon. I've accepted that it's going to happen no matter how much I know it violates the NAP. I used to work at a store that pierces ears and I, sadly, pierced many a baby girl's ears while I worked there, so I've seen firsthand that babies cry very hard when it happens to them and it is quite obviously painful and confusing for them. It's appalling that this happens just to appease some self-centered desire for aesthetics on the part of the parents. My sister-in-law does not know that I believe piercing the baby's ears is totally unethical and she wouldn't understand why if I told her (she's a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, so reason is not very popular with their family). She really wants me to come out with her, my niece, my other sister-in-law, and my mother-in-law as a big "girls' afternoon out" to get my niece's ears pierced tomorrow. I do not know what to tell her. She knows I don't have plans and that I'm available, but the prospect of telling her flat out "I don't support your violence against your daughter and I don't feel like going out to celebrate it" just doesn't seem realistic. But I also can't see myself ooh-ing and ah-ing over my screaming, crying niece's newly pierced/red/swollen earlobes along with everyone else; I feel like I would stick out like a sore thumb since I wouldn't be able to bring myself to agree with everyone how "cute" she looks with earrings. I've tried deterring her from it by describing my many experiences with red-faced, screaming, tearful infants who've just had holes punched in their bodies, but that has not changed her mind. My brother-in-law (my niece's father) won't even accompany everyone because he doesn't want to see his daughter cry like that (what a coward). What should I do? Should I tell my sister-in-law I'm not going with them on principle? Or should I just suck it up and go along to be with my niece since I know it's going to happen whether I agree with it or not?