Zava

My friend is dating a guy who has a Vietnam vet living in his basement. The vet was supposed to be temporary but he's been living for over two years now, the entire time unemployed and rent free. The boyfriend is rarely home so he didn't really mind it, however, about a year ago he did try an “intervention” with the vet's few 'friends' to explain he needs to find another place eventually. The intervention “didn't go well” and nothing happened after that. He refused to open up a manila envelop which had some paperwork (which someone else worked very hard to obtain and now refuses to do it again) about getting vet benefits for example...it just sat on his kitchen table untouched for months and months... Anyway, my friend lost her job last month so she moved in with her boyfriend- they were planning on moving in together, just not that soon. The problem is she's not comfortable living there with this odd third wheel. The vet is harmless old guy and even though he only makes an appearance like three times a day, their privacy is always slightly compromised but now that she lives there, it's more obvious of a problem. This issue is starting to hurt their relationship. She feels like she is the bad one, saying it's not right for the vet to be living there and rent free and she's not comfortable with the way things are. He'd just cry when she brought up the subject (even before she lived there) saying he knows she's right but he didn't know what to do. She felt bad bringing it up but one day she brought it up very seriously (and crying herself about it although she realizes this wasn't a healthy way) but that finally got him to talk with the dude - he simply told him that he needs to move out by June. In my opinion, the vet should have said, “that's cool, you've been awesome letting me live here for free for years so I'll try to be out before then” but no such reaction. Just an “ok and thanks” but he's been “oking” the boyfriend for a few times since staying there. How will the vet know it's serious this time? She doesn't want to live another six months with this dude still there especially without any guarantee that he'll leave by June. Her boyfriend says, “what can I do? Put him on the street??” basically putting the onus on her. I'm trying to help her, such as getting resources to help this vet—or more aptly, this parasitical dude--out of there but even I am already feeling resentful for working on this instead of the boyfriend or the old guy himself. It also pisses me off cause the guy is always referred to as a “vet” like he's some kind of hero. LOTS of more grateful, less mental folks would love the opportunity to live rent free and in fact some are online in this community.The boyfriend said he agreed and that he doesn't think he's a hero, just an old guy in need. Still, I think there's some kind of subliminal overtone to it when other people ask him, “still got the vet living with you?” type of conversations. The dude is about 65 or so but energetic and seems younger. Both my parents worked all their lives dying before this age which makes me a bit angered by this situation. Other than her moving back out (once she's on her feet again with a job which should be in a few weeks) until he can get this sorted out on his own.... Any advice???

You're not alone. It's one of the very few things I disagree with Stefan about. The teenager's murder has incorrectly become about the stand your ground law and gun control itself. Here's an example from today:

Wow, wow, wow! That video contains amazing information. With someone I care about, I will automatically ask, "Are you OK" but with a stranger or someone who has been aggressive with me or others in the past, I never consider asking that: I only considered how to escape or how to address the behavior itself instead or "rescue" as he describes it. I'm bookmarking it for additional viewings... I need to incorporate this. So helpful, thanks!

First off, don’t worry about your grammar, you made yourself clear. That's some really intense stuff and I'm so sorry you endured that. Here's just a few quick impressions I got from reading her note: “Ok, so I went from being hurt and confused to downright pissed off.” To me this sounds like, “I tried expressing hurt as an emotional manipulation, without any genuine caring feeling of curiosity about you and when that didn’t work, I’m quickly switching to my usual dominating tactic, since I’ve had a lot of success with that in the past. “ “I have not done a single thing but try to help you, neither has Xxxx. “ Sounds like, “I’m perfect, you’re blind/insane.” “I supported whatever you wanted to do, right or wrong, you needed stuff when you moved I scrounged it up for you so you could have something and not do without, you needed money I gave it to you,” Sounds like, “I am such a good mother. I even indulged you in wrong things like giving you stuff you needed. Maybe I regret it now since you’re not obedient. I sacrificed my entire life for you, it was so inconvenient for me. I did this to be good, not because I took any joy in helping.” “you needed help with Xxxx when Xxxx had surgery so I got on the phone and got you some help, when Xxxx and Xxxx hurt your feelings I tried to make you feel better without bad mouthing them, you needed something to drive I gave you the tracker and the truck.” Sounds like, “I don’t do things because it’s right to do them. I do them so I can make you feel guilty later and as a veneer to hide all the bad things I’ve done.” “I don't butt in, I don't try to tell you what to do or run your life and i have never judged you or put you down. “ Sounds like, “I’m perfect” yet she contradicts this statement in the very same paragraph by incorrectly judging and insulting you with the statement, “If you are going to ostracize me and my family without even telling us why or picking up the phone to try and resolve whatever you think the problem is, then you are no kind of man at all.” You never said that you were shutting them out of your life forever; you said you needed some time. You were simply expressing a genuine emotion and her reaction is like firing bullets, at your manhood no less. “ So put that in your craw and chew on it.” This part is so ridiculous. It’s immature and combative. I think cynicist’s thoughts about this are really good. After reading your additional communication, it’s clear that she is feigning confusion. She clearly lacks any kind of curiosity. Her reply asks no questions. Instead it’s like a slammed door in the face. “then you decide you have childhood issues.” Is a brutal thing to say as well and I’m so glad you caught that! Anyway, I'm so sorry you had to endure this but glad you're making great progress and with such a supportive, loving wife helping you.

I can’t think of anyone personally or even anyone offhand but I’m sure they must exist. Maybe it’s because we’re not surrounding ourselves with the right people. Maybe such a change is a rare event or that such metamorphosis takes place quietly, privately, and so slowly that the change isn’t really noticeable? Anyway, I think it’s an interesting question and I’d be interested in reading other replies.

I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

After reading your post last night, I immediately though of a podcast. I found it this morning: http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1407_Self_RTR_When_Dating_Convo.mp3 (FDR 1407 Self RTR When Dating Convo) I don't think her issues are the problem; it's the fact that they are unprocessed. You can't be her therapist. This podcast talks about how to recognize issues quickly before you come acrossas too interested/committed. Then you don't to go through a sticky extrication.

I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you. PS It's funny and odd that every contribution here has received a negative "rating" except Stefan's question which he never elaborated upon as well.

Nice video. There's so many good points and he delivers them with a cheerful, good dose of humor too.

I totally agree with Nathan. His apology is a tiny paragraph, sent via FB. It doesn't demonstrate any understanding for what he's apologizing for: He simply wants you back in his life and is offhandedly doing the bare minimum for it. He should have been the one listing the problems that you list here, on his own without any assistance. Until that happens I would just ignore it and in the meantime look at it as further proof that you made the right decision in freeing yourself from such an abusive person.

I’m so sorry you had to experience that abuse and with the whole concept of dying and death simultaneously levied upon it. As a child it’s hard enough to sort through less complexity. Do you have a good relationship with your twin sister? Do you communicate with her about these types of feelings? It seems perfectly natural to have taught yourself indifference rather than raising hope only to have it painfully crushed over and over by rejection. Just as an aside, I've looked through some of Cheryl's posts recently, before I've joined this website and must say she will likely have greatly helpful feedback for you. By the way, your English is excellent.

Not sure if these qualify specifically but here’s a few which are pro-freedom and antiwar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68sVJeDgH20 Pete Seeger - What Did You Learn In School? I learned our Government must be strong; It's always right and never wrong; Our leaders are the finest men And we elect them again and again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0oFlng8vuk Broken Bells - The High Road A break from the warfare in your house, to each his own.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBwhKC2pvWg Jedi Mind Tricks – Uncommon Valor I didn't sign up to kill women or any children For every enemy soldier, we killing six civilians Yeah, and that ain't right to me.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U8C_XuE7wc Imagine Dragons – Radioactive In an interview I read, it sounds like the singer didn't mean this to be a political song at all; more superficial reasons. Still sounds like a powerful, awakening-type song though. I'm breaking in, shaping up, checking out on the prison bus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY Gotye - Someone that I Used to Know This song was played nonstop when it came out. Often I heard it blasting from cars. It reminds me about Real Time Relationships book; how relationships seem to just accidentally happen. The singers seem to wail their experiences into a void, without being listened to and without listening; reenacting childhood—mirroring parent and sibling relationships as the paradigm, in a continuous, vicious cycle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74 Talks about the difficulty of being out of control, isolated, depressed, self-medicating, and trying to talk oneself into change. In one of the FDR podcasts, Stef says changing personality is like trying to push an elephant with a toothpick; that it’s one of the most difficult things in life to do but no one can bypass the need for self-knowledge. Not without negative consequences anyway. Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over But had me believing it was always something that I'd done But I don't wanna live that way Reading into every word you say https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzMJhOwBLqw One of the few Metallica songs I really enjoy. There are no lyrics but there’s something very freedom-inspiring about it for me. There’s a feeling of movement, soaring, rising above adversity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSeuLsNV4CA Michael Franti and Spearhead - Time To Go Home Those who start wars, never fight them And those who fight wars, they never like them And those who write laws, they can't recite them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX3lE_PlNa4 Michael Franti and Spearhead - Light up Ya’ Lighter The Army recruiters in the parking lot Hustling kids there jugglin' pot Listen young man, listen to my plan Gonna make you money, gonna make you a man http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2usaloFiUU Michael Franti and Spearhead - Yell Fire They tellin' you to worry about the future They tellin' you to never worry about the torture They tellin' you that you'll never see the horror Spend it all today and we will bill you tomorrow Three piece suits and bank accounts in Bahamas Wall street crime will never send you to the slammer …. I first heard Franti in The Disposable Heroes of Hypocrisy – Television, the Drug of the Nation. I was surprised and dismayed to learn that he is an Obama supporter. Such a shame. ATHEIST (CDQ) is awesome. I never heard that before, nothing of the kind before, in fact. I’m glad you shared that, thanks!

First, Internet hugs. I can sympathize with what you are going through. I’m glad you’re in therapy and I hope you can find a better therapist if you can’t examine your past with the current one. Rubin really analyzed the letter well too in my humble opinion! Seriously, bravo on that. Very intelligent. “Sometimes when I am out walking with the dog and I person on a bicycle passes us, she looks up and wags her tail in the belief that it is you.” This statement is really wretched. She calls Stef an idol yet doesn’t examine why that is at all and why she thinks that’s the case. She puts no questions to you. Nothing. It’s really insulting toward you and your judgment, something she had a hand in crafting. Instead, she recruits your dog (which is probably a cute dog, well because most dogs are cute and loveable) just so she can tug at your emotions. Sickeningly manipulative. She makes zero effort to understand her own son. It’s all about her and her feelings. I’m glad you resisted the guilt manipulation. I hope she will snap out of her selfishness and communicate in a more calm manner at some point. I wouldn’t hold my breath though.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. I agree with Bradford26, about sounding too conclusive. I really like the part where you say, “having an adult relationship with you and Mom would be fantastic, but it is only going to come from both of you showing me you’re interested in and doing the hard personal work that takes; that step might be going to therapy to work on your own accountability and integrity and healing” It shows you’re open-minded, warm, reasonable. The only thing that concerns me is that it may sound like you are kind of expecting them to read your mind, to automatically know what you’re talking about. Is that because you have already exhausted RTRing with them? For example when you say, “to hear the sometimes hidden meaning in what people say” could be misinterpreted. If something is hidden, it is not seeable. I know what you are saying of course, but dealing with someone who obviously hasn’t been attentive in the past may again act inattentive, shutdown and/or attack in retaliation when you point it out. So, being as clear as possible is extremely important. You can express your unhappiness firmly yet gently, without accusation. Also, “There hasn't been for decades, if ever.” The ‘if ever’ part sounds like you are uncertain. There’s nothing wrong with uncertainty but you are writing this letter because you *are* certain of at least something; that the relationship is unsatisfying to you. Maybe that’s what you should just focus on, expressing that as best as possible, very gently and clearly. The RTR book is great for that. Carl posted some FDR podcasts which I’ll check out too. There are so many helpful FDR podcasts. Of course the wisdom within them is helpful but the emotional delivery, the sympathy in them can be stirring and helpful in their own way as well.

Just wanted to say, Dylan’s advice is great.. Really boils it down to the essence of the matter! I'm going to listen to the link too. It's something I've been thinking about recently.

Wow, that is an intense experience and a nice, riveting description too! A few questions come to my mind. You can answer all, some or none. :-) I'm curious to know though. 1. Thank goodness you didn't wear a seatbelt but what made you decide not to wear one, even as you saw the situation escalating? 2. Do you feel that this horrible yet intense experience has helped you evaluate why you were in the car in the first place with the stereotypical testosterone-fueled guy indulging in dangerous, superficial thrill? I think my whole world would have been turned upside-down. I would be kissing the ground, lol. 3. Do you feel like you state of shock? You write about the accident very casually, distantly in my humble opinion even though it happened just last Friday. Also, I mean my goodness, your _friend_is still in a medical coma. Did your father ask how you were holding up considering this? 3. Why did/do you continue trying to get through to your father about your political views? It must have taken many attempts for him to amass enough intimate information about you and your feelings about government to turn them against you like weapons. Unless he simply shuts you down, without giving you any chance at all to elaborate your thoughts, did he? 4. Why do you believe your father doesn't know what a "good job" is (because he works for government?) or "good woman" (did he divorce or have many toxic relationships?)? 4. Have you read The Logic of Love book? Have you tried applying the skills in that book with your father or anyone else in your life? Lastly, I want to say DAMN that is harsh treatment from your father. If you were my son and I heard this unique, momentous, scary news, I would have first hugged you and said, "thank god you're OK!" and then I would have been terribly confused/sad as to why you did not feel comfortable coming to me for emotional support or just sharing a very important piece of information about your life (it sounds very important to me!) even on the phone. Oh and that part about your father being arrested for DUI on three occasions with your brother and you in the car as children is bizarre. I'm glad you feel comfortable calling him out on that, that you can speak your mind about that. I'm going to guess that you can do that now that you're older but it probably was impossible to speak of that when you were a child when parental abuse is more severe for obvious reasons.

Horrible ecard. I'd like to hear what others recommend too. All I can think of is to get the best book out there or print out some project no spank pages and talk in person if you can. Avoid facebook comments. Even email unless you have a successful history of communicating effectively in detail with them that way. Tell them you know they're good people and you think they'll be great parents but that this really concerns you. If they are your friends, they will want to hear you out, consider and value your input. EDIT: Just noticed you included a screenshot of comments... reading now. I think you did good. I'm so glad people are speaking up like you. I just feel like it would be more effective in person or at least in private, without the social pressure of abusers and their heckling. Also it would avoid her having to feel uncomfortable for posting something she wasn't really understanding I think. Maybe follow up in private, showing how serious you are about this important topic.

inmax, I was in a very similar boat as you. I got caught up in a horrible call center job for years and I had horrible anxiety. The worst part was that I wasted years of my life getting _emotionally invested_ in calls, taking abuse from callers as if I owned the business! As if I made the profits. As if the magic CEO god was monitoring all my hard work. Hahah what a joke on me. The CEO didn't even care about the customers much: He was extremely stingy with customer service pay. I even overheard him talking disparangingly about the idiot customer service reps. Well yes... a certain payscale gets a certain quality of employees whether it's market determined or not. Unless they're doe-eyed and naive like I was, working harder and harder hoping I'd get acknowledge, approval, anything near proper compenation. Employees eventually wise up, hopefully. I don't know exactly what your situation is but I'm guessing it's not too different from lots of other call centers. No one was micromanaging me at that job. I micromanaged myself. I became my own abuser in fact. Until I opened my eyes, broke out of my myoptic, prison-shell and saw how things really were at that job. It's extra hard to do when everyone sitting at their cubicles wearing blinders and plugged into the matrix too. If can get a better job, as the other poster suggested, in face-to-face setting, that sounds like it may be better for you. However, I am happy to say there is a great way to get through the call center job and this is it: Don't care too much. Seriously. This can actually be a good job to practice this. Just do the minimum to get by. Unless the CEO/management actually pays attention, really, and rewards hard work. Remember the customers yelling and throwing tantrums are just disembodied voices over the phone. They're not coming to your home to complain. A lot of those people are impulsively abusive. Most don't even have the logical sense to ask for your name. Don't take it personally. Don't absorb their toxic energy. Imagine you have a sheild that protects you. Build it! Deflect their negative energy. Point it at the company where it belongs, not at you. Be as polite as possible while pointing their attention to the fact that it's the company, not you. It took me way too long time to put this into effect. Even if the customers have been mistreated by the company, it's not your fault. Perhaps the CEO, managers etc, created bad business practices or products and then placed people like you in the position of defending them while not giving any authority to improve things. If a customer asks for your name and they're too impatient and unreasonable, escalate it to a manager. You can even be honest and say, "I don't have the authority to do that.." to whatever request they might have, and this will encourage them to ask for a supervisor without you actually having to bail. Don't take it personally. Again, you aren't given authority to give the customer everything he/she wants, right? Also, remember how puny your paycheck is. If you think it's not puny you're probably underselling yourself/have low self-esteem or few coping skills which in some ways can be related to social anxiety. If it's a good paycheck, however, then just think of that money, use it to motivate you and 'kill the customer with kindness'. Sympathize with them. Do your best to help them. If it's not enough, let them know you're doing your best but you only have authority to do so much. That's when you pull your parachute: The manager or whoever is above you. Hopefully they get paid better to handle those escalations. I hope this helps. Sorry for the rant. I just totally sympathize and wish someone told me this stuff years ago. It might be one thing to hear it and another to put it in practice.

"really trying to explore the nature of my attraction to her" Please forgive me if I'm totally off-base but it sounded like you want to jump into the water, so to speak, without examining it from all angles, without immersing yourself into true, deep introspection, perhaps therapist-assisted which obviously may not be as fun nor provide feedback as quickly. It is good that you are asking people for input and at least considering the results beforehand though. I'd hazard a guess that not many people do that, at all. If you don't mind, I'd like to share an anectodatal tidbit from someone on the other spectrum, from the future: In the past I dated/saw/hung-out with a man 20+ years older than myself and in retrospect (and even slightly during) I felt very taken advantage of although I admit it was technically voluntary at that time. I think absent or abusive/negligent parents makes these age-gap situations attractive and possible. Instead of the older guy *really* helping me, I became isolated and reliant upon him even though he didn't provide much. I'm not sure it was intentional on his part but nonetheless those were repurcussions even if it took me years to realize them. I think there have been studies conducted showing that, as far as monogamous couples/marriages go, those closest in age had the most success. Of course, there are exceptions to everything. Like winning the big lottery or getting struck by lightening but even then the latter is more likely. It reminds me of one of Stefan's podcasts about goals: If someone isn't working toward ultimate goals time isn't just wasted; it leads one in the opposite direction, making the goal further and harder to reach.