Eh Steve

I'm taking some time to assess my original post and clarify my thoughts. My question does boil down to efficacy and intention in non-committed interactions. I've found personally when people are more "within my tribe" or friends of mine I have much more success in helping them. But my more empathetic non-intellectual approach may be fairly ineffective when I am dealing with people without that bond. I've tried my approach largely with people in my environment. So a few girls at the local coffee shop and cashiers at the local gas station so far. And what I've found is that my effect on them could be fairly neglible. It is hard to say. One of the women got her daughter into counseling to deal with some depression, but I can't say how much my influence really factored into that. Another I had conversations about her relationship with her boyfriend and she made some progress in that, but again I can't say how much my conversation influenced her. Another had issues with her sons that have happily been resolved and communication has improved significantly, but I can't say how much my influence was a factor. And then there are a few more where I have talked with them at some length but have noticed very little influence or change on them. I've had a few other brief interactions but they all follow that trend of, even if the person does improve their life, I can't really say to what extent my interaction with them was a factor. I have found when I have interacted with a few close friends I generally have had a very positive influence. But I focus mostly on relationships rather than anything intellectually they might be thinking. And my approach is usually non-contradictory, but I focus heavily on validating negativity towards abuse, validating complaints about life, and particularly lately I've found adding a significantly stronger amount of "what could be, what if you woke up happy, etc. etc." has been very very effective. But my question does boil down largely to, what is the point of minor interactions. And whether they are futile, and what it is I look to get out of them. And to what extent I need to become more than random stranger to have an effect on anyone. So far my approach usually can be boiled down to: 1. Empathize / listen / validate 2. Encourage them to enter therapy. 3. Encourage people who are already in therapy extensively Usually I do this I think because I do feel my minor interactions with people aren't going to have much of a permanent change on them. And I think if I accept this more strongly, this sense of futility, I may become a bit more blunt though in my usual sweethearted way, and really question my ability to make an influence in a small interaction. If I question my effectiveness I may need to change my approach and give a bit more of the "you are fucked if you don't get more significant help" message into my interactions. How would you break down your approach to interactions in theses small doses with people? And do you find it to be effective? What is your intention and how well does it work for you? Certainly our approaches are pretty different and if yours is more effective I'd be interested to incorporate some of it within my own communication with people. Genuinely it's quite a struggle for me to figure out exactly what I should do in terms of interacting briefly with people to have a positive influence and feel like I'm being effective. And to find out how to balance the sort of shotgun / timely nature of brief interactions versus the more in depth getting to know someone interactions. How to get the most bang for my buck if I'm going to be interacting with strangers briefly.

First off I'd start with....it sounds like your wife almost committed suicide and you should both be taking that very seriously. My sincerest sympathies man this all sounds really stressful and difficult. You've got a potential suicide, a divorce, figuring yourself out, these are all huge issues to be dealing with. To me your story is highly complex and has a lot of details that aren't necessarily included. Not a lot of people turn Christian without having Christian families. With divorce you mention a fear of the unknown. Could it be you had that same fear when you were 14 and found Christianity was a way of coping with it? At the moment it sounds like you have a dichotomy of "should I stay or should I go". Neither one is really necessarily the correct option. You mentioned desiring emotional connection with other women. How is your emotional connection with your wife? If you're both unable to really explore something as difficult as a divorce, particularly if she's going to potentially kill herself, I can understand why emotional connection with her isn't very appealing. You say she is a great catch, and then also that she's only in your life because of Christianity. Those two don't really make sense to me in combination. Would you still love her without the Christianity? To me all of this is a legitimate issue for suuuure. There are a lot of legitimate issues going on in your relationship and your life. I don't think a divorce immediately is something that is going to resolve the underlying emotional issues going on. But I can't at all say you should divorce or not divorce. For what it is worth the issue you are having is basically the issue for all of humanity. Communication in relationships and self-knowledge. The answer to that issue I recommend is getting into therapy and for your relationship both of you learning to communicate your feelings. I truly do sympathize with your situation. I can't give you a really clear answer as to what you should do. But I believe the answers you are looking for you will be able to find by emotionally connecting with yourself, your wife emotionally connecting with herself, and you two communicating more clearly on an emotional level. For that I think you'll need to find a therapist ideally or take the time to journal quite a bit to figure out exactly what it is you feel and what it is you want.

Thank you for the response Nightspirit We talked in the chat so it is a bit repetitive to respond here. But I really appreciate the response and the test you've given here. It makes sense I had so much trouble figuring out the fearful and dismissive stuff, I ended up just minorly on the fearful side pretty much in the center. I hope you're able to find a therapist, if you are continuing to look into it, who would be willing to explore this area with you. I do dislike the focus on immediate issues and like a more holistic approach in how I interact with people, certainly a therapist I would really want that. That to me these patterns are so clearly life-long and show up in so many areas of life I can find it very frustrating when therapists only focus on single relationships or things I consider minor like work satisfaction etc. I really feel like I'd want someone who focuses more on me as a person and less on the problems I may be dealing with specifically. For what its worth it was really nice to talk with you and you seem like a very sweet person. I hope that if these issues persist for you that they'll get better or you'll be able to get some help with them. It in some ways pains me to think of people not treating you well, particularly a therapist that can be pretty painful. Speaking of which I hope you're feeling better from what was causing you some pain yesterday Thanks again for the post Nightspirit

I'd like to start my comment again with the feeling of happiness and pride I have in you for being in therapy It is immensely difficult and requires quite a bit of humility, open-mindedness, and responsibility to examine our own behaviors and try to work to understand ourselves. So I'm very optimistic, proud, and genuinely just delighted to see you are doing this and taking these steps I hope the therapy goes well and I'd like to continue to convey the feeling that I truly do think it is a very good thing that you are doing this. Regardless of my desire to give input here or express my own thoughts I'm just exceedingly happy for you With that said here are my thoughts and feelings / experience and I hope they are helpful for you (I type long things, I hope you like it but I apologize if it is in anyway overwhelming ) I've had an interesting reaction to feeling positive traits about myself in my own life. And often hearing people's positive feedback to interacting with me can be pretty foreign and unusual feeling. That internally I don't really relate to being a positive or friendly or enjoyable person to interact with. And despite recognizing it objectively and understanding when I get feedback, it is truly bizarre how much it can conflict with my own view of myself. To branch out a bit intellectually here. With virtues I believe there is something known as the Aristotelian mean where for example courage is a virtue, but an excess would be recklessness, and a deficit would be cowardice. I think in the same way viewing these traits as neutral can be appropriate. In that being helpful, forgiving, and tolerant could be virtues. But those very virtues can be used against you if you are helpful, forgiving, and tolerant of people who are not deserving of that. Of people who do not demonstrate those same virtues in return. And that fundamentally to extend these virtues to others without requiring reciprocity is not extending these virtues to yourself. It's not very helpful to allow yourself to be exploited. It's not very courteous to yourself to let people hurt you. It's not very insightful to not recognize your own feelings and to be overly critical of yourself when it is in many ways other people who are being exploitive or negative. That fundamentally it may be we have these mixed feelings about our traits because we are not applying them to ourselves. That I may treat everyone else very well. Even if they aren't deserving of it. And that fundamentally the person I use these virtuous behaviors with the least is myself. In looking at intelligence I've found it really can be that same thing of a potentially wonderful trait, but it can have many negatives to it. I've used my intelligence at times to come up with really negative things to say about people. I've also used it to be insightful, curious, and helpful to others and myself. It really has depended on my use of my traits and in many ways finding nicer people to interact with that I found my negative tendencies with these traits really sort of has started to go away and my more positive and friendly side has begun to flourish. I mentioned this earlier when we spoke it may bear repeating or it may not. But I do find it an interesting possibility that if we desire to be positive in our lives. That the tendency towards being negative about our own negativity might not be the best way to achieve that. That in many ways the negativity in my did serve as this protective mechanism. That if I was too friendly I could get hurt. That if I was too insightful the shallow people around me might not like me. That if I was respectful to people who did not deserve respect I felt inauthentic. That if I was hardworking I could be exploited. That these strengths I have are only strengths when I protect myself. And that a refusal to believe in their positivity as a recognition that I need to really look out for myself and not let the hurtful people in the world influence me so strongly. That emotionally in many ways these traits weren't positive if I was allowing myself to be hurt. That I simply couldn't believe it to be true because within the context of how I let myself be treated and how I was treating myself they simply weren't virtues. In this way I can view my self-doubt and viewing myself negatively as a positive. Some of the people I have known in my life who were the most positive about themselves were abject narcissists. At an emotional level I might say "well, low self-esteem sucks, but I don't want to be a narcissist, and I don't know what else to be besides this way or that way." And I've found many benefits in my life in having lower self esteem. There have been times when I thought too highly of myself and I was very reckless, I hurt myself and I hurt others. And while low-self esteem isn't the best answer for that, I really did feel that I was better off not feeling that great about myself if it meant I wasn't vain, if it meant I didn't feel confident to attack people, if it meant I wasn't self-righteous, that I was able to doubt myself and doubt that I was inherently such a great guy. That I had to take my actions and the effect it was having on myself and on the people around me seriously. And until I earned that confidence that I wouldn't hurt others, that I wouldn't be vain, that I wouldn't act out, that I simply couldn't risk being that positive about myself. I think in compassion for myself and understanding the steps I need to take to earn this feeling of confidence in my own positivity I've found some comfort. And I've found some use in talking with other people who really disagree with this negative view of me. When it first happened when I was much younger I found it reaaaallly disorienting. It is less disorienting now but does still feel a bit odd to me. I think from what I know you are taking the correct steps to improve that for yourself which makes me very excited and happy for you I hope this post is enjoyable or helpful in some way. I'd like to thank you for sharing your posts and experience in therapy. It is both interesting to me and I think for me and hopefully for others it really is truly helpful to see other people in therapy and talking about it. Therapy can be verrrry scary and intimidating to go into and to see that you have not only gone but are also willing to share your experience with others is a sign of courage to me in many ways. So thank you very much for sharing Perry

Generally yeah. Attachment theory is based on studies where they take a toddler, separate it from its parent, and see how it responds with a scientist in the room. They were able to break that down into four consistent patterns. And for the most part how the toddlers react follows through into adulthood as a pattern of socializing and behavioral patterns. I'm sure it trends out into ACE scores and all sorts of other implications but it is a pretty popular and utilized theory in many forms of psychotherapy. It is also generally as I mentioned held up as the reason why rapport / alliance with a therapist is the most predictable metric you can measure for a patients progress in therapy.

Here is I will theorize on a possibility in psychology and psychotherapy and explain in my opinion why people avoid self-knowledge. I could go through and make this more intellectually accurate, for now I will be using loose definitions and have no citations, but I have some background knowledge I am relying on. I'll be drawing on my personal experience to partially rant but partially it is the best example I can use but have seen this pretty consistently in people I have talked to with any great depth. Here I will be calling something the Unifying Schema. It's a bit of a non-sense term I'm using on the fly here. It could also be termed a fundamental emotional baseline, an attachment disorder, or a persistent belief construct etc. etc. Attachment disorder is probably the most accurate comparison and the science behind those are something I will largely be relying on. In attachment disorders or attachment styles they are broken down currently into four categories which strangely differ for children and adults. In children they define the four categories as : Secure, Anxious-resistant, anxious-avoidant, and disorganized/disoriented. In adults they define the categories as: Secure, anxious-preoccupied, dismissive-avoidant, and fearful-avoidant. I am more comfortable and knowledgable with the adult definitions and will work with those here. Here is a quick wikipedia breakdown if you would like more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults My argument as to why people avoid therapy or avoid self knowledge comes down to attachment patterns. That when we are looking at any one situation, belief, problem, relationship, that all of them all stem back to an attachment pattern. That at the core of all issues or even seemingly "non-issues" in someones life there is a persistent pattern of interaction they are applying to nearly everything they do. So in therapy I personally believe people avoid focusing on any one issue, primarily because it focuses on EVERY issue. That it is fundamentally their relationship to every single thing they do, their primary mode of operation, that they desire to change. And the scope and magnitude of this change is fundamentally overwhelming. Every relationship will change, their relationship with themselves will change, their opinions and ideologies might change, their behaviors will certainly change, their persistent sense of self will change, their feelings throughout the day will change, their motivations and desires will change. And fundamentally to examine anything if you begin to prod at the underlying structure means everything will change. As soon a single outlier in behavior exists, then the structure itself begins to lack integrity. I have found in my life I seem to fall into the dismissive-avoidant category. Frankly it can be hard to tell the difference between dismissive avoidant and fearful avoidant, they are pretty dang similar. But from what I have seen in what I would call this unifying theory. That nearly every behavior, nearly every relationship, nearly every action I take, follows the predictable pattern layed out within this attachment theory. I maintain a distance, suppress and hide feelings, generally seek less affection and intimacy than others etc. etc. etc. And basically everything I do in my life in some way fits the needs of this attachment pattern. I smoke for example which can be off-putting and great a distancing myself from others. It also gives me an air of destructiveness and cynicism. It creates an artificial reason for judgement by others. It will also only particularly be attractive to people who have a similar tendency which keeps me safely out of the secure category and the consequences of intimacy within it. I've also had issues with weight and fitness. And once again it makes perfect sense within the structure here. Distances intimacy, creates reason to be judged, it's entirely self-generated to serve these necessary emotional needs due to the pre-existing pattern. I see this within my tendency towards underachievement, hygiene to some extent, at times cynical and distancing tendencies within relationships, non-pursuit of relationships, view of the world, my non-commitment to basically anything and all things. That fundmentally commitment is a good word for it, but I find that my actions often entail doing things from a safe distance in a non-committed manner. Fundamentally with myself, but this relates to interests, passions, people, relationships, friendships, even shit even my damn screen name has "eh?" in it So I have felt that in avoiding self-knowledge and therapy... I've been well aware that there has virtually never been an outlier within this schema. And to explore any one issue, meant EVERYTHING was going to change. And that can be pretty overwhelming. To what extent have I expressed beliefs, developed a sense of self, developed relationships, developed skills, all of which may be completely TRASHED if the underlying structure and personality is shifted. Truly to enter therapy and to address the underlying schema is a complete abandonment of ego. And a complete abandonment of attachment to basically everything I do, every way I relate, every relationship I have, my relationship to myself, the way I normally feel, the things I normally do, the things I normally think. Literally everything is within this lens and this pattern / schema. So to examine the damn schema / pattern is one hell of a change. And is essentially a form of death. I personally find it baffling that people go to couples counseling. I find it baffling that people try to make any small changes in their lives. That to me I've always sort of felt this way, and perhaps it doesn't apply to everyone, but I've felt there is a very consistent and persistent pattern to every single thing I do and every single thing I think. I find it a bit baffling within psychology this isn't a commonly spoken of issue. I find the gradualism within certain spheres a bit bizarre. Perhaps it is useful? But I find the notion of looking at each detail of anything sort of pointless. I feel like there is an underlying structure that all behaviors rely upon. And to simply examine that will alter damn near every behavior, relationship, thought, feeling, everything. I find it a bit baffling people feel like they can work on a single relationship or behavior in their life and don't see how that will ripple outward into everything it is they do. Fundamentally I believe to change one thing is to change everything. And this is why we see for example in weight loss, people rebound with dramatic predictability. That their efforts to change a specific behavior will fundamentally fail, because it doesn't fit within the schema. And until the underlying schema is shifted, all attempts to act against it are futile or merely fit within some sort of frustration complex within the schema itself. This is the reason for the very very common nature of relapse in almost any change in someones life. This is the reason why people are largely predictable. This is the reason why people generally never change, or the changes that do happen always kinda make sense in a pattern. That everything in a persons life will feel pretty similar to them, and anything which is outside that norm for them will need to be adjusted back to the norm, or they will have to change literally everything else. So theres a rant. I could go on further in terms of practicality of changing this situation, but I am curious if anyone else relates to this. I would argue the main purpose of many therapies is to provide a secure attachment. The other alternative is to change within the limbic system this fundamental pattern methodologically. I have posted one example of how I believe to do so by yourself here: https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/47567-want-to-generate-an-emotional-insight-try-this/ Do you see an underlying pattern in most relationships and behaviors in your life? Does everything you do sort of make sense if you examine them all as having a very similar pattern behind them? Do you feel at all that changing something in your life would fundamentally be a threat to everything else? Have you found it difficult to aspire to changes in one area of your life rather than every area at once? Or completely contradictory evidence is welcome as well. I am currently tracking a contradictory experience with a friend of mine who made a change with weight lifting...and I'm curious to see if that ripples outward into other areas or not. I've seen a few changes in his work and relationships that he may not be aware of having been affected by this seeming unrelated change. Buuuut I will wait to gather more evidence on that. For what it is worth he used the exercise I posted above and went from struggling to consistently lift weights to only noticing months later that he had no more problems with it after one use of the exercise.

People don't hold their beliefs for random reasons. It reflects something in their emotional system that this belief "makes sense" to them. And arguing intellectually isn't going to change that inner sense of "it just makes sense to me". Usually in my experience being intellectual the best I can do is validate a truth someone has been unable to speak safely. In that case people usually just go "thank god someone finally said it." If there is resistance or disagreement it is often on an emotional level and debating is just going to bounce right off that shield. You can very rarely if ever change the notion that something "feels right" to someone. And that is the actual nature of most debates. You can not argue someone out of the deeply held feeling that something feels right to them. If you want to debate people...my advice would be try to figure out why people believe what they believe. And if you feel that something they believe is making them unhappy, you should show concern or compassion for that person. They can't just snap their fingers and stop believing what they believe. Even if they consciously agree that what they believe is irrational, it is highly likely that the emotional compelling reasons for them to believe it will persist well beyond your debate. They need to examine the emotional roots of their beliefs as to why it "feels right" to them. And having a sympathetic person can be very useful for that. People's actions and beliefs, no matter how negative they seem, often exist for deeply important emotional reasons to them. Emotionally it is basically a matter of survival. And survival trumps logic for people 99% of the time. Even people who are flexible to using logic and empiricism to change their beliefs, largely due so because they feel it is advantageous to their survival. If we look at politics for example... the implications are tremendous! Trying to get someone to change their mind can mean being in conflict with everyone around them, important family figures, possibly their career, and fundamentally it will be having them question the authoritarian nature of their own minds and personalities. It challenges every justification they have for their society, it challenges their entire childhood, it challenges very likely their own raising of their children, their own relationships with their spouses, their parents, themselves. It isn't at all as simple as taxation = theft to these people. The implications and the costs to people are so tremendous that if they don't respond with an immediate "oh thank god someone said it", you're in for a huuuuge emotional debate to actually help someone change their mind. So with debate... If you recognize the problems beliefs are causing in someones life. If you recognize the consequences of behaviors in someones life. You damn well better care about that person if you actually want to change their mind. Because if they don't change it on a simple conversation, it's going to be massive emotional overhaul to do so. And I feel like missing that, and debating people aggressively, is really fundamentally missing the reason people believe what they believe. And to me it just comes off as an excuse to fight. And an attempt at dominance. Which fundamentally isn't the peaceful way I prefer to live. So if you're wondering why people do what they do. Or your find yourself compelled to debate irrational people. Understand you're dealing with emotional reactions in others. They aren't just bad at logic usually. They have deeply compelling emotional reasons to believe what they believe. And if you find yourself driven to fight with people in such a futile manner it may be worth examining in yourself why you find it compelling. In my experience debating basically anything with people on an intellectual level was the same as having a fight. And that was the fundamental reason I did it. That I wanted to lash out at irrational people and make fools of them. To prove my superiority. Unfortunately...this isn't a coherent way to live if you're opposed to dominance in relationships. If I value curiosity, honesty, depth, and compassion for suffering... I avoid purely intellectual debates. I fundamentally have seen very little evidence that peoples intellectual beliefs are at all chosen, are very very rarely based on any sort of empirical data (and often there is enough to cherry pick whatever you want), and that fundamentally people respond solely to emotional insights. That I've found very little reason to operate on intellect in confrontation. And that in my own life I've found fundamentally my emotions are largely the drivers of my behaviors rather than whatever intellectual ideas I profess or claim to believe. I will leave one caveat here. Having a debate publicly which can influence people besides the person you are debating is very different from a one on one debate. That is an important thing to note when it comes to debate and the implications of what to expect and what effect you will have. I'm happy to hear thoughts or opinions I understand this is more of a rant for me without much inquisition involved so if anyone has personal experiences or just opinions I'd be happy to hear them even if the nature of the post was very one sided

Congrats on entering therapy Perry!! Thats a big step and certainly not the easiest one For what it is worth I jump on keywords from time to time. And this idea of "broken" is a very key phrase to me. This podcast may be of some use for you on that subject: http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/349/you-are-not-broken . For what it is worth on the subject I'd suggest that broken may be a severe word. People adapt and develop survival mechanisms / social strategies, and social anxiety is currently an adaption that you have some mixed opinions about having. At a younger age when we develop these behaviors often the pros outweigh the cons, often for unconscious reasons we are completely unaware of. Sometimes the answer as to why you do something likely isn't as simple as there being something wrong with you. My key concern with a word like broken is to convey to you the idea that everyone has their issues and you deserve as much compassion dealing with them as anyone else But dude! You're in therapy! You have purged negative friendships / abusers / leaches from your life! Congrats man! I'm genuinely really happy for you :) I wish you luck in CBT Perry. I hope by this time your second session has gone well I look forward to reading any updates you have and wish you luck

You've expressed some sexual abuse by your boyfriend including filming. This isn't a matter of morality at all. This is a matter of psychology. I'm not a psychologist, I'd really recommend talking to a professional. It is quite possible that this is a symptom of someone who has been sexually abused. I'm pretty concerned you may only feel valued for your body and only know how to be appreciated/adored for your body. Based off of the last post and this one I imagine you are dealing with your last relationship with your boyfriend and possibly something with your father here. You've expressed a fear of men, sexual abuse by a male, and now you are sexually entertaining men from a safe distance. This certainly isn't anything to do with morality... But from a psychological perspective these are areas you really need to consider exploring with a professional. I am pretty concerned you have normalized the way your boyfriend treated you and are continuing those behaviors now. This honestly frightens me for your well being more than many posts and issues I read about here. This behavior isn't immoral, but it is pretty deeply concerning considering what you have shared about the likely cause of it. My fear is that you are repeating and stuck within a behavior pattern you developed while being abused. And while I don't wish to shame you or moralize you in any at all I am very concerned about this. I don't believe saying "don't do that" is at all an appropriate response to most behaviors, I think it would be very helpful for you to talk with a therapist about the abuse you have been through. I simply can't recommend it enough for the situation you are in and have been in. My deepest sympathies Nina. I really strongly encourage you to talk with a professional about these issues. Not from a "You must not do that" standpoint, but simply because you've been through quite a bit of trauma and exploring that with a sympathetic person will really help you. I hope this helps in someway Nina, I really do. I'm genuinely quite concerned for your well being.

Yup. Thanks for the heads up D.

I do actually care I may not know you well but it does bring me great happiness that you were able to feel this new way with your therapist. To me I'm happier about that than pretty much anything that could happen to anyone. It is a very important thing in your life and will hopefully reap great rewards for your personal happiness going forward Once again Congratulations Markus !! I'll need to examine why I was so negative before. I'm glad you were able to have this experience regardless of my previous reservations about this therapist. I'm glad it seems my thoughts on "be honest with her" resonated more strongly with you than "runnnnnn" So I do apologize that it seems that was bad advice. I will take some time to reflect on that as it seems the honesty and vulnerability options is much much better I've had similar thoughts about relaxation, bonding, and physical touch. So in ways I am very thankful you were able to confirm something I had been wondering about very recently. So for me also, thank you for doing this and sharing your experience here Markus, it has helped me and given me an example of something to try in my own life It is odd to me to think...often it feels like thinking is sort of fused with anxiety sometimes. And that at the core the real issue may be lacking this sort of peaceful, secure, inner love feeling. Despite not having that feeling myself I often do suggest others seek it out and believe it exists. I'm glad you've found that feeling within yourself and I hope you continue to feel that way and perhaps make even more wonderful progress in therapy now that you have I wish you well Markus

Congratulations Markus!! I'm very happy you were able to finally ask for help in your most painful of places And it sounds like this might be your first felt sense of security in your life ! I'm very happy for you Markus and that you were able to achieve this with your therapist. Smiles all around. I hope this progress and feelings of security and relaxation can continue forward for you and this new felt experience is something you can carry with you outside of your therapy sessions in time

Yeah a city might be overwhelming This post will hopefully offer a more realistic example. This will be less poetic and emotional, but I still feel the same desire for your well-being and hope this will assist you in your life and feeling better. How you feel is unique to you and specific, but our situations may be similar enough that you might be able to relate . What I suspect may be going on for you is that you developed an attachment and strong feelings for another person. And that might have been very new for you or even the very first time. It certainly was for me until very recently. I didn't feel an attachment and connection to another person until I was friggen 29. I've had girlfriends before, I've had friends I spent time daily with, and I still didn't really feel any sort of connection or attachment to them. Certainly not to the depth and magnitude I experienced with this person. And when it happened with this new person it was extremely disorienting, confusing, and overwhelming for me. It wasn't by any means all bad, I liked it a lot, but I had very little experience with those feelings. I had all kinds of new feelings I simply did not know existed before then and had a ton of trouble interpreting and dealing with them. I also am not dating the person I've felt this way about. And it is really bizarre for me to still have that feeling of connection. We are no longer interacting much...why the hell do I still care about them? Why do I still feel any kind of attachment and fondness? It's so unique to me to actually attach to anyone that it's really been disorienting to not have that one person, that first example of this feeling in my entire life. And I've only found that by considering the possibility that I could feel that way about someone else that I find much solace in not being with that person. And it has been very hard to consider the possibility that I might be able to do it again when every other interaction and person I had been with did not make me feel that way. There is hope to have that feeling once more, and if not with this person, perhaps it is possible to feel this way about other people. It has been very hard for me to recognize what it was about this person that made me feel this way. Why did I attach? I never attach, what the hell happened? Why am I having feelings? I never have feelings, what the hell happened? And to deal with losing those feelings and that person when it was so much better than how I usually feel and have felt has been pretty upsetting for me. I feel like to me...I've never intellectually ascribed to determinism. But in many ways my actions and feelings reflected it very strongly. I was passively reacting to my environment and I was expecting how I felt to never change. And very much how I felt was the same all the time. When I ran into someone new and things felt completely differently than they had ever before I was very confused. I was so used to feeling basically disconnected from everyone, everything, and myself all the time; I had no idea or expectation that I could feel attached and feelings other than what it is I usually felt. I had no idea the depth and persistence of new feelings I could feel, rather than have feelings be short biips on my radar with a quick correction back to my baseline of non-feeling. That I could feel completely differently much of the time. It felt almost purely by random that I had met this person and had this new feelings. I didn't consciously seek out anything new, I didn't consciously feel like I was doing anything differently from what I had always done. Certainly how I met them was not particularly different from what I had always done. There was no feeling of conscious choice or free-will in the matter, it felt very much random and unexpected to me. I acted differently, I felt very differently, everything was profoundly different. In time I have found there was a massive difference in how I related to this person and how I connected to this person. I've found that time spent with someone, discussing thoughts and feelings as honestly as possible, and doing so in a vulnerable and consistent manner, was what produced this wonderful attachment and connection to another person. These behaviors were mutual on our part. To the extent either of us weren't honest about our feelings things went badly and the feeling of connection, security and attachment suffered. In my post to you I hoped to offer the possibility that maybe there were other people you could attach to and interact with in a similar way with this other person. And that maybe things would go better this time. Maybe you could identify what it is that went wrong with this other person and seek to change things in the future. You may have little control over how you feel about this previous person. But it is possible you may find yourself able to feel similarly or even better with someone else. That it wasn't necessarily this person on their own you had feelings for, but the way you interacted, the way you both expressed yourself, the time spent together, that was what developed these feelings for someone else. And maybe if you interact this way with others you can feel a similar feeling of connection and all the feelings that entails for new people. I personally recommend journaling or therapy to help get in touch and process your feelings. It helps stabilize the connection when you develop the skills to better express yourself and understand yourself. This will help in the future when you connect and attach to others to have it be more reliable and hopefully help you find stability and connections that will last forever I hope this helps Natalia. My heart truly does go out to you and I as best I can over a message board I do empathize and sympathize with the feelings and situation you are dealing with. I hope you can find it within your heart and mind that it is possible for you to have whatever it is you would like out of life

I'm up in Rohnert Park

I can not say at all which gender you are attracted to. But I can say that I am sorry for what has happened to you and that you didn't deserve to be hurt by your father or your ex-boyfriend. There are men in this world who will never hurt you or force you do to anything against your will. I hope for you to spend some time assessing your feelings about what has happened to you. Regardless of whom you find attractive, I believe you could use someone to help you feel safe and cared about after being so mistreated. It is possible you find women less threatening than men after what has happened to you. It is also possible you find women attractive in their own rights. I hope for you to find people who don't mistreat you and can express sympathy and care towards you. I recommend a therapist to help you sort through these feelings of hurt others have caused you. When you have examined and felt these feelings and received care from another over your mistreatment you may find your sexuality easier to figure out.

It can depend on circumstance and personal preference. You've listed a few examples where confrontation was useful in your life. It is worth noting they were all in person. So sometimes you have enjoyed and gotten benefits from confrontation. For people online motivated enough to send a website an angry email.. there may be benefits from responding to them. It might feel fun to do and it might help you solidify your base of knowledge and debate skills. So those might be benefits. There also may be consequences and a question of futility in changing someones mind by doing so. There may be many more for you and you can weigh the pros and cons of your actions internally. I can't say whether it is worth it or not. My hope would be that you feel free to choose your response. That when someone is using facts and logic you feel at least an option in how you respond. That you don't have to give them correct information. You are still entirely free to choose to do so, but I think being free to choose your decisions and actions would feel nice. If you feel that you must do something, or have to do something, it might be useful to explore why you feel so compelled.

My motivation in responding here is that I care about you and your well-being. That I want you to have people in your life whom truly care about you. I care about you feeling happy, cared about and protected. From what I can tell in your posts, having people in your life whom genuinely care about your well being might be a very new thing for you. If determinism at all helps you feel happy and safer in this world I do not want to fight against it. My only desire to disagree with that belief would be out of concern for your happiness, and I don't believe disagreeing intellectually is going to help that at all. I am thankful that determinism brought you some solace and comfort in an otherwise stressful and confusing life. In my life I have felt very emotionally compelling reasons to believe in determinism at times and i believe it offers a useful and accurate view of reality in someways. Perhaps this will help: How can we tell if we desire something we have never had before? How can we desire something for all we know may not even exist? Is it possible that a change in our environment, that a change in the people around us, will change what it is we desire? If you learned that a mile away there was a city of loving, caring, friendly people who would love nothing more than to help you and care about you, would you find yourself walking towards it? If such a place existed right down the street and there was zero doubt these people would take you in, care about you, help you, connect with you, and listen to you...would you go? My hope is that within your imagination you can find there may be such a place. That the feelings of care and connection with others may exist. And while you may not have been born into it, you may be able to venture outward in search of this place, these people and these feelings. I wish to offer you if only on an unconscious level that there are people in this world whom if you look for them will offer you love, care, compassion, and nurturing. I truly wish there was such a place I could offer you. And I truly wish you had been born into such an environment, family, and community. I wish the same for everyone I have known and may come to know. I would offer such a community of connection and care to you if I had it. For now I can offer you someone to talk to, words of encouragement, and hopefully convey the feeling that I truly do sympathize with you and feel strongly that you deserve people who care about you. That you will be able to find other people in this world who can offer you this same care and connection. Though we are raised in an R-selected environment, if we search for K-selected people we can adapt to this new environment, this new way of relating, these new people and these new feelings. You do not need to be born into this tribe to become a part of it. People will accept you and care about you and you will be able to adapt There are people in this world who will never abandon you. People who will care about you and love you until the day you die. I hope for you to find within your heart this possibility and to cultivate the desire to search out (whether by choice or not) such people. You deserve it.

I feel like in your life and in your heart, you may not be truly familiar with the feeling of people caring about you. I wish my message to you had conveyed that more clearly. But I hoped to come from a place of concern and care for you. I was a bit blinded by hoping to save you from repeating my own mistakes to really feel that and make it clear to you. I feel like you may not recognize the importance of someone caring about you in your life. And how missing out on that emotionally may be the answer to many of your questions about romance. Your parents weren't intimate with eachother which implies great deficits of care given towards you, you have felt a lot of embarrassment and stress in your life, and you are risk averse. I believe the aversion to mistakes is a great strength I have shared in my life. That I have avoided dangerous relationships until I knew intellectually what was wrong. In the end my intellectual conclusion has been emotional. You deserve to have someone who cares about you. That you are worth more than someone who should be propositioned for sex. That you are worth more than your income. That maybe there are people out there and a woman out there who loves you for you and seeks to truly connect on an emotional level with you. This is what I'd like for you and wish to help you see as a possibility for yourself. The insight you lack is a genuine feeling of care, connection and love from another person

I'm glad the post seems to have been helpful for you. I'm interested to hear how your conversation with her goes. I've had this several times with people I knew who were in therapy. A good friend of mine would confide in me many things in his life he felt ashamed about or were wrong. And then he'd tell me...he didn't tell his therapist that. Which to me... the entire point of a therapist is feeling safe to explore the things you find completely uncomfortable or inappropriate exploring with other people or even with yourself. Or if you are holding back on things, you can discuss honesty and trust with your therapist. It isn't always advisable to honest with certain people, but with a therapist if you aren't being honest or are holding back, that is a real area to be explored emotionally which you can do without necessarily speaking your mind about what it is you're holding back. It is often the things we hold back on saying that need to be said the most. I'm glad you're being honest and exploring taboos with your therapist. I hope it goes well

Tattoos follow an emotional pattern for me that I'm curious if people relate to: To me, from a young age, I've been quite convinced that something was horribly wrong. I'm still quite convinced of the objective and emotional truth of that statement. Tattoos to me symbolize a great rift in what I consider my core belief. That someone felt confident enough to say "this is a good idea". "I will want this forever". That someone felt capable and comfortable making a permanent decision. I feel like people who make permanent decisions might not hold the same core belief about the issues I feel are present in the world. I worry it is someone who may be superficial, or someone who has some recognition of emotional pain but is acting it out artistically rather than identifying its cause. In my life I have found people interested in much of anything, whether it be as simple as careers, hobbies, interests, or getting a tattoo.... I often find myself cynical. It is hard because I believe other people do legitimately enjoy themselves. But throughout my life I've found it difficult to enjoy much of anything. I've never been able to confidently say "this is a great idea". "I'm really into this". Nagging at the back of my psyche has always been the reality of the world, my place in it, my relationships, and how messed up that largely has been. Someone capable of getting a tattoo would likely not share this same persistent nagging doubt I have carried with me. That has kept me safe from many mistakes. To me in comparison this person might be reckless and less aware or committed to the cause. This trend flowed in a lot of areas in my life. For example I had a discussion with my cousin many years ago. He had just been hired by Porsche and was quite excited about it. And my response was something to the effect of: "What's the point?". "Cars are an abject waste of time" "You need to focus on the emotional and relational collapses that have happened in your life, and anything outside of focusing on that is a distraction". Tattoos are tricky in that they are a form of expression, permanent, and well known to be regretted. But in life I think I've found there are many red flags. And that what I prefer to look for beyond the redflag is the same distaste, disillusionment, and desire to improve the emotional state of the world and their lives. I like to call these green lights I look for people whom have some sort of emotional depth. People who enjoy conversation. Certainly in looking for a future wife my criteria is very high in terms of emotional awareness, experience in therapy, general happiness, interest in peaceful parenting etc. etc. The red flags don't really matter that much. Tattoos are rough since they often come from a troubled time in a persons life. For someone with tattoos I'd hold them to the same standards of looking to see if they have done the emotional work and have the same beliefs in what makes for a happy life and feelings about the state of what is normalcy these days. In looking for green lights any existing red flags become readily apparent. As an addendum. The most important factor in a relationship is going to be you. In looking at the red flags of others, be sure you are aware of and are working on the red flags within yourself. Do you meet the standards you believe necessary for a happy life and a happy relationship? When you develop a deeply felt confidence of your ability to maintain your own happiness, emotional awareness, ability to be empathetic and intimate, you'll be less concerned about the red flags in others. You will be able to gauge based on your feelings whether or not this is a good person for you. Looking for red flags can be a sign of not listening to your feelings and instincts about people.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120116201902/http://www.psychresources.net/depression/ This is the website of my old Coherence therapist who has since moved on in his career. I asked his permission and am allowed to spread around the old archive for people interested in a do it yourself process. There are different examples at the top bar of the page to choose from. I will post the exercise for depression here. This process is based off of a therapy known as Coherence therapy, that was deliberately developed and refined to produce consistent insights and breakthroughs. Let me know how this goes for you. I hope it is helpful. Free Self Help ExercisesYou might find that one or two of these exercises may not be a great fit for you, but it is important that you try each of them. You may discover some uncomfortable truths about yourself in doing these exercises. Try to be nice to yourself, and schedule a session if you want some help or support. If you become overwhelmed at any point, just stop and rest. If you have a history of abuse, panic or thoughts of self-harm, please schedule a session or go through these exercises with your therapist. Some of these exercises ask you to complete a sentence. Please read the sentence-stem either aloud or silently and then let the sentence finish itself without trying to pre-think an ending. Feel free to change the sentence-stem in order to make it feel more true. Repeat the exercise over and over until you are not getting any new endings before going on to the next one. 1. Please imagine the important people in your life (including your family) and get a clear picture of them. Now imagine saying to them, “I need to be depressed because…” and let the sentence finish itself. Keep doing this until you are getting no new endings. When you are finished, write down some of the sentences that felt strongest. 2. Now continue to be there with those people and try saying to them, “If I’m not depressed, then…” and let the sentence finish itself. Keep doing this until you are getting no new endings. When you are finished, write down some of the sentences that felt strongest. 3. Now imagine waking up in the morning and going through the day without any trace of feeling depressed. Not only is there no depression, but you know that you never will feel depressed again. Pay careful attention to anything that feels unwelcome about this reality. Spend some time with this experience before moving on. Write down what you learn. 4. Now get in touch with your feeling of depression. You may imagine a scenerio that would provoke it. Feel the depression in your body, and then ask it, “What is your job?” or “How do you serve me?” and wait for it to answer. Spend some time with this experience before moving on. Write down what you learn. By this point, many people will feel like they have found a part of themselves that they did not know existed. You may have discovered that you had an important purpose for being depressed. It may have been a way to ask for care, or a way to protest the way you have been treated. It is important not to turn this part of yourself into an enemy, but rather make it into a friend. You can do this by not trying to change it. Instead just accept it and let it be true. You should also spend some time each day reading over what you have learned about your depression. Many people will feel a strong need to have someone with whom to share this new truth. You can tell a trusted friend, a support group or schedule a session with a therapist. Eh_Steve: As an addendum. When you have a breakthrough, write it down on a card and emotionally feel its truth frequently over the next few hours and day. Attempt to keep it as a persistently felt new awareness. This will help solidify the breakthrough. To test the efficacy of a breakthrough. Wait a day or a few hours and attempt to re-trigger the previous emotionally held belief. If you find it persists, repeat this process and look for extra layers of beliefs that may be keeping this one in place.

This appears to be a pattern you had with your mother and may now be repeating with your therapist. Be aware that patterns you have developed in your life are likely to repeat. You are likely to become substitute boyfriend/husbands and have odd boundaries with women in your life. With a therapist, a single mother in particular, this is a situation rife for that pattern to repeat. What do you think would happen if you questioned the therapy might be bad for you? Would her reaction be the same to your questions about her parenting? Therapy is about finding the emotional truth in your life and having a professional assist you in doing so. The therapist is a secondary helper and your relationship with them isn't the primary factor in your ability to achieve insight into your own life. Building rapport and attachment with a therapist is somewhat important. But I would argue that a therapist you are attaching with needs to have their life together. If this woman could not keep her romantic relationship together, odds aren't great she can help you do the same. If this woman has questionable parenting skills, odd's aren't great she can help you have great parenting skills or be supportive of your legitimate complaints against your mother. What is the point in going to someone for guidance and mentoring when you don't wish to replicate their life? The unifying principle with a therapist is always honesty. I recommend you bring these issues up with her as honestly as you can and see how her reactions make you feel. From a pragmatic standpoint... There are many many therapists in the world and they differ in quality. This particular therapist is showing signs of being a negative influence on you and fitting into many of the emotional patterns in your life you wish to change. Your life and your time are the most precious things you have. I would hate to see you squander it repeating patterns and not progressing. You need a therapist who will help you explore your core emotions and help you break cycles of behavior set down early in life. I feel like there is some more coherent advice I could give you that is just on the tip of my tongue. I'm tempted to just write RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN. Your relationship with your therapist should in no way mimic your abusive childhood.

There is a difference between intellectual speculation and self-knowledge. All of the things you have listed above are likely contributing factors to the reasons you have avoided a committed or intimate relationship. However. Intellectual knowledge will not change the pattern for you. You require direct emotional experience of the reasons for your behavior and choices. When you have felt and experienced your reasons in an emotional way you will feel a more coherent sense of truth. Insight is emotional. Insight is completely an emotional process. Despite the complete accuracy of intellectual speculation on your issues, to produce insight and make changes you will require an emotional experience. This will allow you to make the behavioral changes you require to change your actions. Therapy and journaling are recommended for this. However I do want to stress the emotional nature of this process rather than spending time intellectually speculating. Thinking about this may help. I suspect you have done a lot of that and are very good at thinking. However. Feeling about it is completely necessary. I suspect you have not done this much. I can list off very very accurate intellectual reasons for my behavior. However, I have not emotionally processed the causes of these behaviors. This leads to a sort of hellish masochism, similar to the Cassandra effect. If your study and intellectualization can lead you to anything. I strongly recommend it lead you to understanding the impotence of intellectual thought in comparison to emotional exploration and deeply felt non-speculative self knowledge.

Googling for IQ tests can be sketchy, a lot of them are incredibly biased to inflate your score. http://www.iqtest.dk This is the one I would currently recommend. No grammar, it is just progressive ravens matricies. This one seems to be the best available online and comes recommended as such in my google searches. There used to be some decent ones from Mensa and the High IQ society but they've been put behind paywalls.

Learning in schools isn't spontaneously driven by the students desire to be there and study. I generally find it hard to care about the details in a corrupt system. So with this I want to start off by saying %$#^ school. Few if any of the kids want to be there in the first place and I see little point in criticizing any non-abusive behaviors they might have in such a crappy situation as is being a teenager in modern crap society. Kids who want to study should have a place to do that without sexual influences distracting them. Kids who want to be flirty/explore their sexuality etc... ehhhhh there is an age appropriate discussion in there in the first place, but if it were healthy behavior they should have a place to explore that without having to sit in a classroom. Forced education is immoral and corrupt and leads to this kind of crap in the first place. No one can get what they want because people aren't free to choose their environment (outside of private schools / Montessori / homeschooling etc.) The issue with groups of people is that one person can have an effect on numerous people. I'd argue the school system is the one distracting these kids from learning by forcing them into the hellpit of modern education. Being forced to study stupid things at an artificially set pace without getting any sense of your genuine interests and autonomy is a hell of a lot more distracting to your mind than someone dressed provocatively. Most of these kids don't want to be studying geometry in the first place, so it is hard to argue it is possible to distract them from that task. (there is a nugget of something in there I can't quite flesh out). Distraction is only possible when you actually want do be doing something. At least in terms of relevance to the situation. Someone can be really distracting in a concentration camp, but isn't really what you should be focused on when evaluating the situation. The whole sexual provocativity thing... ehhh I mean there are studies on sexuality and in general most emotions making people a bit stupid/distracted. It is difficult for me to figure out...because then you can go full blown the other direction into nudists walking around not feeling sexual around each other. I'd love to see the same IQ lowering studies done with nudists to see how they react. America and breasts versus Europe and breasts would be also be a good example... or the Middle East, or Victorian eras with their scandalous ankle flashers. What counts as sexually provocative in people's minds certainly seems subjective/cultural much of the time. There is certainly soooome objectivity that goes beyond culture though, don't get me wrong, but bra straps are going to effect different people differently. So we have #1. Involuntary schools are evil hellpits where the minute details of their dress code is a futile discussion. #2 - Modern childhood sucks and I feel bad for anyone going through it. #3. Sexuality and comfort with ones body are interesting topics to be explored in situations of safety and security.