Llamabean

I am very sorry about your situation! Is there anything that you can do to leave it? A friend recommended sfhelp.org to me. He is in a difficult situation as well and found it helpful. Maybe you will find it useful too.

I've been contemplating my response for some time now only to find that I can't help my futile defensiveness. I am stuck. I appreciate your advice on gauging my relationship with my mother and I will definitely try to learn about self-ownership! However, it seems like I can't find an appropriate way to express my feelings about this topic. As for the discussions, I do find them to be useful. I don't think I'm at a point where I can call it exercising my skills. I'm developing them and I have to start somewhere. I am learning to identify people, to identify myself. I am learning to argue, to speak. This is my issue actually. I used to be someone who sat by idly just listening, never speaking. I need to learn to speak. I am not going to be able to speak my mind coherently all of a sudden because I am the five year old in the analogy. I called them "a waste of time" because to someone with confidence they likely are. But to someone just realizing what's possible they are very important I think. I was and still am a person who has yet to grasp any cohesive self knowledge and I am surrounded by the like. But I have to have hope that I can change and thus so can others. It is something that needed to be brought to my attention, that the world doesn't have to be the way it is. This is not something one commonly finds in isolation and it is only true if one can change. It would be wonderful to have civil and insightful discussions exclusively, but they do not just happen in most instances. One has to find and form relationships where it is possible first. I want to grow, and I want to welcome people to grow with me if I can. I am happy not to feel as helpless and I know many people would be happy with this realization. So I notice that folks are discontent with the state of things and I offer my opinion that things do not have to be so. That is what leads me into discussions, which may or may not be particularly profound, but are a starting point none-the-less.

I should brush up on my logic. Though I'm tempted to justify my method. I find that even the discussions that are a waist of time due to either side supporting an in-valid premise are still good practices for communication. Plus, it's rare to find people that believe violence and theft to be good things. But anything that can be done to improve these interactions should be explored. Thank you for the suggestion. I strongly identify with the lack of mental peace and tip toeing around someone else's disturbed behavior. I can see how it may actually be helpful too. I feel encouraged to work towards relief and independence but I also suffer from depression perhaps because I have yet to achieve it, but it's really attributed to failing to resolve my history. I am also happy to reap the benefits of free lodging and board, without which would make the path to stability and independence sufficiently more difficult. I guess I am conflicted because I have yet to identify and make my feelings known to myself let alone my mother. She seems open to conversation actually, so I need to learn how to speak. I do have to plan for that conversation and her reaction but I'm afraid to find out whether she's open to change, or really, open to acknowledging me. I'm afraid that I will not be able to continue living here if she is not. Like the abuse is continuing... like how can I remain in a relationship where I feel unimportant to someone and also feel important to myself? Also, how can I experience healthy relationships with this sort of dissonance? Maybe your understanding of your relationship with your father has made it possible for you to resolve that dissonance and move past it. Have you found yourself to be more aware of abusers and less susceptible to re-inflicting trauma? My quest is fresh and I am only recently aware of my patterns. I feel like I am lowering my standards by remaining in my current situation but that I am also making my goals more achievable. I guess I'm choosing to live this way in order to see the light at the end of the tunnel, instead of throwing in the towel on this situation and starting from scratch. I suppose I should face my fears though and make it clear to myself whether I stay here out of fear of being on my own or whether it is actually a good strategy. It is both... that is easy to see suddenly. I think it's all the reasons you've stated too: This conversation has helped me realize that I must acknowledge this fact. I stay because I am afraid and because it is strategic! I don't think I will feel so much conflict with my decision anymore. Moving past that internal conflict will make it easier to focus on the task at hand, which is figuring out whether there is hope for a real relationship with my mother, either way I am here for the time. With more work the fear can be overcome.

Dsayer, You may very well be correct with your suggestion to share your feelings first, and I completely agree with your merit for friendship. --The reason I start with opinion instead of feeling is because identifying my feelings is something I struggle with. I have to practice identifying and experiencing them before I can move on to the next step (which might be understanding them or expressing them). Perhaps sharing an opinion too is something one should try to be mindful of. --I guess the way I've practiced so far has consisted mostly of appealing to another persons logic and morality after having a discussion, which consists of explaining where both persons stand concerning an issue, and trying to find common ground. It's proven to be appropriate in some conversations and harmful in others. So I understand your point and agree with it. I would like to express my sympathy for your situation because I also live in undesirable conditions. Do you believe that your situation is a hindrance to your pursuit of self knowledge? I am conflicted by this notion. I am not sure if I believe that my situation is preventing me form achieving a greater understanding of myself or if it is a sensible "speed bump" to allow.

Dsayer, I am very grateful for the encouragement! And enthusiastic to participate in this conversation! Also, point taken and well explained. Here, I am a bit confused. I agree that, with all things equal, it is universally preferable to recognize that the statement/question, "why are you so unreasonable", or "why does it seem like you are unable to respond in a reasonable way?" is logically invalid. Thus, it is imperative that such irrational language be avoided... However, if we consider that in particular instances, ie: If I have a relationship with someone who has proven to be reasonable but, in an isolated event they act unreasonably, I don't think it is irrational to expect that they resume their reasonable disposition... I want to reiterate that the original questions are agreeably invalid, but what about something like, "quit joking around." Is this not a rational way to ascertain whether a reasonable person who is acting unreasonably is capable of returning to a coherent state? I realize that we agree that the form is sloppy, but as far as whether or not this is an effective strategy I wonder if, as dsayer brought up... ... anyone can really be in a position where they are able to recognize the role they play in a relationship, for example an enabler, before having logical inconsistencies (rational versus irrational, or reasonable vs. unreasonable, moral vs. immoral) pointed out to them in the first place. - Perhaps, I'm sort of pointing towards the swaying of the masses who see their slaughter before them but do not react to it believing it to be futile, since we are pressured into being docile. Then, suddenly someone explains that the wrongs you perceive to be normal are in fact not acceptable and that you don't have to comply. So, suddenly you want to be reasonable and logical.- I say this because if society seems irrational, we learn to comply with irrationality. It seems that it is not until we step back and admit that our current situation is unfit that we can proceed to change. Also, it seems that this conclusion is rarely achieved without help from individuals who have also reached said conclusion. I think that had I not been introduced to FDR and/or a rational ideology I would still be on, or at the end of, a self destructive path. -Perhaps I also mean to reinforce my belief that it is the responsibility of the individual to assure that one's self and loved ones are capable of living in the healthiest way. Hence it is my responsibility to point out if someone is acting unreasonably iff I believe them to be of sound mind.-

Then I'd say that, although it is difficult to be a caring person without having self knowledge, it is possible. Given my example, the questioner is without self knowledge and therefore susceptible to responding emotionally before taking reason into account. The approach that you have suggested is more favorable in every way, yes. However, this is the reason that I am not confident that I should be inputting on this philosophical discussion. Is it necessary to assume that all participants are reasonable? I am struggling with the realization that the majority of people in my life may be reasonable but, they are still statist. I think that it often times follows that they are likewise without self knowledge. This is not to imply that people without self-knowledge are incapable of having civil discussions and being reasonable. My main argument is that a person who lacks self knowledge may ask this unreasonable question, but it does not necessarily follow that they are unreasonable. It may follow that they are unreasonable, but I don't think a principle can be formulated considering other factors of humanity, and circumstances... On the other hand, I fear that I am trying to minimize the evils that I have experienced and inflicted! What do you think? I don't think there is great relevance concerning propaganda though, would you care to elaborate on that note? I also don't think you are being closed minded --Bean

Thank You! Something I'd like to add then, is that this has not been easy for me. I've spent most of my life (basically all of it up until a week ago) believing that my opinion was not important. I was fortunate enough to spend sometime away from home, and living somewhere else, far away from my abusers, definitely helped me realize that I'm all I've got. I'm the most important person to me. I have to do what's best for my well being. Almost everything up to the point that I had this realization was just self destructive. Like you said you've put yourself in this position. I had done the same thing. I needed that time away to step back and find out what I want for my life. Look at what I had and what changes were necessary. Um, but if you can't step back for a few weeks or a year then I would suggest journaling and trying to make sense of what you want and what you don't want. I wonder if you'd like to be more specific with your experiences? If so, I'm very interested, and if not, I thank you again anyway! --Bean

Without context I cannot agree that the question itself is insincere. Generally speaking, if a stranger were to ask this question, I would agree. If a loved one were to ask, I would not. The reason I would not agree is because it is possible for circumstances to exist in which a reasonable person acts in unreasonable ways and might not be aware that they are doing so until it is brought to their attention. I can give an example: My sister calls me saying that she gives up and wants to kill herself because everything is going wrong. Hypothetically, I may respond by saying something like: Why are you being so unreasonable? Which would be to imply: Why are you giving yourself such a hard time or why are you stressing yourself out so much? I'm sincerely concerned with the well being of my sister, BUT in this instance I am not practicing self awareness to such a scrupulous degree. I cannot recall a time where I thought this to be an appropriate reaction, but I can recall a time where I was at my wits end and unable to practice self-knowledge, but still needed to be an emotional crutch for the people in my life that I love. I wonder if this was found to be relevant or did it instead seem like it did not belong in a philosophical discussion. I imagine that maybe it's too specific to draw a principle from or completely misdirected. I would greatly appreciate any feedback at all! --Bean

I have recently reached a point in my life where I feel confident enough to express my opinion. I've posted an open invitation to the people in my life (via facecbook) to start a conversation. I don't know myself or anyone around me very well but I want to learn and grow. So by starting this conversation I am learning to communicate. While I have only just begun this process I do have an idea of what I'm looking for already. I know it'll be extremely difficult to find like minded people but that is not my goal. I want to know who among my friends and family are willing and able to have a civilized discussion. I'm finding this out by being open with my opinion first, then having a conversation with anyone who desires, and then recognizing how I feel about the interaction. I have a little evidence now for the type of people I don't want to be around. Those being the ones who use a condescending or hostile tone, those who minimize my feelings or ridicule my opinion, and those who refuse to listen and contemplate before responding. I'm picking fights in a way. I'm putting myself out there for everyone to see. Those who agree with me I am happy for, but the ones who disagree are of particular interest. I do not want to be in a relationship with people who abuse me for not thinking the way that they do. Is that not actual, real time violence against me? I don't think that it is as simple as saying, "I'm an anarchist, and if you're not I can't talk to you." Like he says, it takes work and time! I am not completely confident in my views! I want life experiences to shape them, I want differing opinions, I want to ask questions, I want more than just logic. I want to understand how we get to that logic and I want to understand how other people come to accept their own views. So, in the few interactions I've had so far, I've been called names and called out. I simply made the other person aware that, yes, I am interested in this discussion, but, no, I will not take this abuse. Even if the conversation ends there and I don't weed out my friends list, at least, this person knows that I am open to talk in the future, whether we have opposing views or not, and perhaps they are more aware of their own actions, "against me." I guess I consider this as a sort of middle ground or maybe a transition stage.. I'm no longer being passive in may associations, but I'm also not turning away from abusers (I agree that it's scary, and I'm not in a position to let all abusers go yet). I'm just starting a conversation that will hopefully lead me to a better understanding and stronger relationships. Please let me know if you found this relevant and/or helpful. Honest communication is very new for me and I would really appreciate any feedback! --Bean

Wow, it makes me wonder about the possibility of freedom in the future... Considering that these types are rare and that libertarians are rare, and that this has changed very little. We are both INTJs and anarchists and really happy to be Anyone here go to PorcfestX?

I think I would label a drug induced experience I once had as a psychotic break. I don't have a clear memory of the things I did just little snips and it has changed me completely. I think it lasted a couple of months and damaged most of my relationships. I got fired (temporarily) from a job I'd had for 4 years before hand. My mom kicked me out of her house and took away my driving privileges (also temporarily). I ended up dropping out of school (eventually), quitting my jobs, and I've spent the last 2 years traveling on and off. However, I started listening to Stef soon after and I think the most important thing you can do is try to learn why it happened. Have you tried to find anyone that may have been affected? Retracing your steps from before and after? Or therapy?