justice seeker

I dont think there is a liberty lover around who wouldnt agree that many use terms like wage slave toas an argument for state controls lol. Its usually accompanied with complaints about prices and health care and so on and blaming of free aspects of the economy lol. Like many of the statists beliefs, the observation is half unseen... wage slave yes, because choices are limited and indoctrinated to serve corporate interests, not because the boss just likes to be a jerk lol... you are prob right about where we stand... funny how that ends up being the case when i talk with people who are willing to think and talk rather than just talk lol

Ok so why wage slavery? Well, this kind of slavery is possible for two reasons... we all know the state regulates the economy, but there is another side that is harder to see... the vast majority of people grow up thinking the best they can hope for is to go out there and "get a job!" Now, if this were natural at all i wouldnt bring it up... but the problem is we are forced to go to school and loaded with propaganda about life that, after 12 or more years and during the ages of at latest 5 or 6 to 17-19, it is bard to break free of. So we are propagandized not only to worship the state, but to think our best aim in life should be to work for someone else... why slavery? It js slavery that uses brainwashing as its tool... and look at what adults do to make their lives liveable... alcohol, drugs, let the anger of an unsatisfying life come out through sports and living vicariously through others... i live in the same city as crystal bowersox, american idol contestent, and she did a show here recently and ppl here go nuts, like it is them on stage... like they accomplished something because a neighbor is well known... and then the propaganda we are give is sold as education... so people go around believeing they are educated because they have a piece of paper, though they were never even taught how to think. So, economic and mental barriers put up by people to block everyone from competing and making everyone think the best they can do is get a job... a job of course in an economy that suits connected people... so ya, i went out and got me a job... in an environment where i honestly thought entrepreneurs were peolle who lived in the 1800s and the idea of it is completely foreign and if it werent im controlled by others anyways... i earn a wage, i think most jobs pay wages, not sure though... am i also a slave? Well, my energy is directed towards serving the interests of others... i ckukd be more free than what i am but it is not easy

I can agree with some of that, but did slaves in some times not have it harder than slaves of the 1800s? The scale of how harsh a form of slavery is is indeed a sliding one... now, i can say that this taxation/regulation stuff is not even in the same league as being whipped on the back and bought and sold, etc. But I also have to admit that freedom includes freedom of association and if you are not free to associate with who you want in whatever fashion you want so long as you are not doing anyone harm, you do not have complete freedom... if you are not free then what are you? This is kinda like saying we are not slaves because we dont give 100% of the product of our labor to others under threat... well, if we can ask "what percentage of taxation makes you free?" Then we ought to ask "what percentage of peaceful associations can be outlawed in any society that labels itself free?" And follow up with"if we are not free, what are we?" I dont mean your ip nonsense like it is yours... forget the word "your" lol sorry, that is confusing. Restricted economy, well, what do you have to do to start a business in a world where kids are gettin popped for operating a lemonade stand with no license? Lol. What do you have to do exactly to really open a business? For the IP part, well, intellectual property is nonsense and it blocks the free flow of goods and services, which is just another way of saying it stifles would-be producers...

incorrect... its true that man has to deal with reality, we have to eat and produce, etc. To me it becomes slavery to other men when jobs and production do not materialize because other men keep them from happening and use force to push materials where they want them instead of where demand satisfaction would take them.

See the above quotes about blocking free associations... this is literally people knowing you need a job, blocking tons of jobs from coming into being, and then pointing out what you jave chosen... what itwere a regular farm everyone had to work on and the only job available was "digger" lets say... yea, people will "choose" it, but only because other jobs are not materializing. In the case of our overall economy this is true for artificial reasons, i.e. the state... who knows what people would be doing if they didnt have our society all screwed up...

Well, what is meant by the phrase free association if not free to choose other alternatives? And a restricted economy means not so many alternatives, and therefore no free association. This is a "either you are pregnant or you are not" kinda thing... either you are free or you are not.As for the second part, no that is not what i am talkkng about. In the world as it is your intellectual property nonsense can render any business venture illegal.

So the premise is as long as there is compensation, no matter how small, it is not slavery? So having a gun pointed at someone to do some job is no longer slavery if you toss them a shiny quarter when the work is done? That does not seem right to me... it sounds a lot like eminent domain... and people do buy into the idea that its ok to force people to move if they are financially compensated... i argue that the term reflects reality... your opportunities are limited by force; when you have a government that defines any and all business in such a way that anything can be deemed illegal, what actually goes on in the official economy goes on because it serves some connected interest... well, is it necessarily slavery? Well, if you tell someone to run in any direction they choose, and you block everything off around them so the only direction they can go js straight, then id say that person's ability to choose is only an illusion...

I see some are harsh on the phrase "wage slave", but i propose the idea that it is a legitimate term. There are licensing requirements built into place for the purpose of keeping people from starting a business, money is dumped to the connected... i mean, who really knows all the regs on the books?? Then most people are dumped into publicschools and taught the best thing they can do with that education is get a good paying job! So ya, nobody has a gun pointed your way 24/7, but when regs and coercion are put there to keep you competing... its kinda like saying nobody forces you to use government roads...

There is a certain aspect of irrationality in morality as well. I may say that i will refrain from stealing because it is wrong, but now i am short a new television set. Is it not rational as well that all people seek to improve their lives, which basically is what mises argued is why people act in the first place. The act of theft is not to deny property exists, it is to coerce a transfer of ownership. By coercing ownership transfers i can enjoy more leisure time and expend less energy producing. There may be a hint of irrationality to theft, but you see there is also a hint of irrationality to being moral...

i havent read upb, but who says criminals are not rational? To me it is not about rational, it is strictly about moral...

I am a veteran, got out of the army in 2006, and as i have been waking up over the years, i have told people things ranging from "dont think me, i didnt do anything for you" and "look i really dont like these propaganda holidays" and the feedback i got was mostly stuff along the lines of "yea, but the point is you were willing to sacrifice for something you believed in" which was, whatever, i didnt argue since they were trying to be nice. This past year i posted a meme on facebook that said "i am not proud to be a veteran" and wrote that i felt my little facebook posts did more to bring justice to the world than anything i ever did in the military... that lead to a pretty productive conversation with my brother about the state. It was nice to talk to someone who was willing to have a conversatikn without emotional panic. He actually asked questions and asked me to define terms and stuff lol. He doesnt agree with me and he did talk to me with the intention of trying to change my mind, but at least now he understands me a little bit more.