Trotter332

Yeah, I understand that. Am I correct in saying, "it's not the rules or obligations of the framework, but the behaviour the framework allows"? Thanks for your insight, I've definitely received a lot of useful information. That's a good distinction. I'll be sure to use that example in the future as well. It's got a strong emotional driver as well. I agree, that video was great. I'll be showing it to her when I next talk with her.

I agree that taxation has more problems than being immoral, but the point should stand independently that it's a repetition of the initiation of force and therefore should be avoided if possible. She believes that morals are subjective and therefore there is no one True Morality or True North. To quote, "I don't think any moral framework is strictly immoral. I see them having legitimate differences.". The qualities I find attractive in her include: Intelligence, honesty, empathy, funny, pretty and is able to understand my traumatic experiences and validate them. I think it's fair to say you can appreciate the beauty of some animals before you realise they're going to eat you. Not that I'm comparing her to an animal, but I think my point gets across. I do plan on continuing these discussions with her and I'll feel more comfortable arguing given I don't have the intention of romancing her. She's still useful for exploring my experiences with and I think I can still learn from her. I'll still be cautious around her and if I feel she is more damaging than beneficial, I'll remove myself from the relationship.

Yeah, I've come to the same conclusion. It's like if there was an Atheist father and a Christian mother. Why would you marry someone who believes you are going to hell and why would you marry someone who thinks your belief system is built upon a mythical sky ghost. I had a discussion last night with her and I made the decision to not continue in a romantic relationship with her. She made the statement "I don't apply morality around taxation. It was democratically decided through a majority vote and if you're the minority, you just have to deal with it or leave.". She doesn't see taxation as theft because it's been previously consented. She thinks NAP is a valid critique, but she doesn't agree with it. So it's either I don't have a strong enough argument or any argument won't make a difference. I would like to think that if I were better at arguing or "more", she would agree with me. But I get to learn from this experience and grow from it. We've decided to stay as friends for the time-being. I am upset about it because I envisioned some really nice situations and really enjoyed the idea of growing with someone, but I feel like this is the best decision for me. I'm still interested in her as a person and want to know how her therapy goes for her. In time, as I gain knowledge and assurance in my knowledge I may make the decision to discontinue the relationship altogether. I watched Stefan's "Against Me" video and understand that I may be seen as performing a cowardly action or even a coward, but I'm okay with that. I still gain value from her for now.

In her childhood she received a lot of physical, verbal and mental abuse. She feels that, had the Government stood in to save her, she would've been much better off. I believe she is emotionally attached to the idea of Government being there for good intentions, does make some poor decisions, but ultimately is beneficial. We're living in New Zealand, but most of the actions of the Government are the same. Still has welfare, war on drugs and I know that most people going to therapy receive medication which only handles the symptoms and not the problems. I had wrongly accused people who perform immoral actions to be entirely immoral and hadn't made the distinction that good people can commit immoral actions, but that doesn't make them an immoral person. I was of the mindset that if she disagrees with the NAP and believes tax is "good", then she is immoral. Though I am in a similar position after having this conversation with the members here. If we can't agree on the NAP and I feel like she won't agree, then an intimate relationship with this person isn't possible. I also have come to the conclusion that it is a cop-out and also why I feel more confident in my initial thoughts before I started "buckling" or "thinking my compass was broken". I can't be certain that I've given her the strongest arguments possible. I feel like I don't have the certainty and personal understanding that I can make a strong argument, especially when I already feel like she has the advantage, given her time studying philosophy. I agree that it does seem manipulative and it isn't my intention to be. It's good to have it pointed out though, so thank you. She does have an understanding of the inequality that men suffer as well in society. She also has a strong distrust and is cautious around men given her previous experiences. I need to head to. I'm having a conversation with her tonight regarding the questions and information I've been given here. I just hope that I'll be courageous enough to provide a strong argument while also being empathetic.

I'm moving cities soon so I'll be finding a new one soon enough. Thanks for the advice.

I didn't mean to suggest that we're going to "fix" each other. I'm in therapy, she's just recently started therapy and we reflect on our experiences with each other. I don't plan on fixing her, but I do want to help her heal. I'm also willing to accept that there will be times where we have trouble cooperating due to our experiences, but so far in our conversations we've felt comfortable enough to point out behaviours and indicators that have occurred and explore them. I had a watch of the video and thank you for it. I'll definitely use it in the future. We haven't been talking so much recently but I'll respond with an update when I get some information. Again, thank you for your input everyone. I appreciate the time and effort you're all putting into this conversation. I'm trying to be as transparent as possible and appreciate being asked the "spade is a spade" questions.

I have expressed my feelings regarding this and she did reply with "I won't be in a relationship with someone who thinks I am immoral.". In reply I said "I don't think your immoral, but amoral. I feel like you're not understanding something or have a bias and I want to help reveal that.". I do feel it's contradictory to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't share the same values and that's why I find it difficult to make a decision when I ask my therapist and check various sources on the internet which all say "You can have moral differences.". I have thought of the implications of when the child has to understand that if their father is an atheist and their mother is a christian. If they agree with atheism, he has to acknowledge that the mother is some form of crazy or misguided and at least lose respect for the father for being in a relationship with this woman. I have thoughts like "When will anything like her initiating force on me ever occur in a practical situation" and I fail to think of instances where that could happen other than her theoretically advocating it. I'm not sure if this is because I choose not to acknowledge possible situations or because I don't think she would actually do anything herself or hire the government to do it for me. I agree that there is a difference between intellectually agreeing to it and it being in sync with your present values. I'm not sure if "viscerally disgusted" is how I should feel. I feel sad that she doesn't agree with me, but I still think there's an ability for people to learn and grow. This including people that don't agree. I'm not saying I'm going to pursue the relationship to wait and see if she does change. One motif I have noticed with my past relationships is that all of them have suffered a great deal of abuse from their parents. I do feel a desire to help them, because I can recognise the pain and I want to help resolve it and because she sees it in me, she shares the same desire. I feel a strong connection with her in this sense and feel it's something we can build on. Do you have any thoughts on this? I didn't intend to suggest that morality is ever not in some way related to a conversation. I meant that you can discuss a grocery list without morality being the forefront of thought. What I was referring to was when we share our traumatic experiences with each other. Yes, we are thinking of the immoral nature actions inflicted upon us and how they affected us, but we also share how that made us feel, how we reacted or what we did with the trauma.

Okay, I see the line of thinking now. Something I want to get better at is taking the written language as it as and to not be quick to interpret it. Thank you for pointing it out for me.

This has been really the only thing I've disagreed with her on. Otherwise she has helped me a lot to know more about myself, explained Ego-State Theory, Kartman triangles and helping me understand the magnitude of my experiences. I never considered if a child would believe that. My initial argument would be "it's the initiation of force, therefore immoral.", but I see what would happen. "I believe it is moral because it benefits me." No, that proposition hasn't come up, nor any suggestion of it. She's in university studying law, biology and has studied some psych and philosophy. She's come to the conclusion, given her childhood experiences, that the state has the power to save abused kids and believes that the government can be improved to act morally. She disagrees with NAP but she believes, for instance, that taxation is a justified use of the extension of self defence for someone else e.g. If you don't realise a train is about to hit you, I may use force to move you out of harms way. NAP also allows for for minor harms for great benefit and feels tax also is classified here. No, I haven't slept with her due to distance and other reasons. Both of us believe that sex (if in the interest of developing a strong relationship for parenthood) should be for developing the relationship and making babies. So because we're still figuring each other out, it's off the cards, which I'm more than fine with. Something witty about Stefan and Crazy/Pussy Town here.

There is still an outcome that results in the woman becoming pregnant. It is madness to assume 99% = 100%.

Thank you for your input everyone. Currently I'm surrounded by people that support the state and advocate the use of force against me. My flatmates advocate, she advocates and both claim it's "justified given the benefits it provides.". I brought it up with my therapist and she used terms along the lines of "It's not about being the perfect parent, but the good enough parent.", "couples can have differences in morals and in the end it is the child's choice to choose what's right for them.". When hearing those I immediately cringed because my thoughts were "That's the excuse poor parents make", "Good enough" infers "I did the best with what I had.". It's been hard being surrounded by people following the same compass when mine points another direction while they say "Your compass is broken." She hasn't been so literal as to say so, I've been scared to "call the spade a spade" because I have been enjoying my time with her. Yes she is somewhat physically attractive. But I'm more interested in her because she is really intelligent and we share similar past experiences. When morality isn't part of the discussion, we have a great time and I don't want to lose that.

Hey everyone. I'm not a parent or in a relationship, but I have a strong interest in someone. I stick with NAP as a basis for my morality and she doesn't agree with it and believes a state is required. My question is, if either of us don't change our thoughts and we begin raising children, what implications would there be for the children?

This was part of a discussion Kanith and I were having. The example we were using was "Say a man dying of thirst meets a vendor who has a bottle of water. He wants to sell that bottle of water to you for $1'000'000. He's not aggressing against you so NAP is technically followed, but you're a dick".

Firstly thank you for your input. Yeah, I think honesty is really important. How do you plan for your therapist to help you if you're just going to lie to them. Journaling was something I was doing and stopped when I felt I didn't have the energy to keep going. Funnily enough when I stopped journaling my dreaming stopped as well, or at least awareness of them. I'm really hoping I don't have to change therapists because the one I'm meeting with has a particular method that looks very good. I think it's called Hakomi.

Hey FDRians, I'm going to be starting therapy soon. I'm pretty nervous about it and have been reluctant to go in the past, but it's time to strengthen my relationship with my inner child. I would like to get some insight into other people's first experiences, advice or recommendations for the first time and, if any, advice for ongoing therapy that you've experienced were helpful to you. I want to clarify that I don't need to know why you went to therapy or specifics of what was discussed. If you're comfortable sharing and think it would be helpful then feel free. I'm looking for methods of attack and ways that you found helped you get through. Thank you in advance for any and all contributions. I look forward to hearing from you.

So we can say that lying is not moral or immoral, because it is dependent of the intention and result of the lie. We can use lying as a tool like we can use a gun. A gun isn't moral or immoral, but simply a tool and how the person uses the gun, determines the morality of the action.

Hey peeps! So for a little while I've been contemplating the idea of how you can go about surprising someone for say, a surprise birthday party, without lying or manipulating. What I want to know is do you guys think there is an exception for "white lies". For an example if my friend asks "Is there something going on this weekend?" and you know that the surprise birthday party is this weekend, is it right to say "Nah, there's nothing going on."? If not, do you resort to manipulation (I assume not), half truths, "Yeah there's a party going on.", but if they ask "Oh, who for?" what would you reply with? Thanks for any contributions to the topic

Thanks Jacbot, I like your suggestion about keeping the defoo encounter short and to the point. But another thing has come up through my sister that alarmed me. My mother is possibly going to be moving back into my area which I don't really know what to do about it. I'm not in a position to move towns yet because my 2nd semester is coming up and I don't have the money yet to go anywhere.

So I've got an update for this topic that strengthens my desire to go through with this. I had my 21st recently in which I got rather intoxicated and there was a video recorded for the speeches closer to the end of the evening. All the speeches were pretty good, seemingly heartfelt and genuine and then my mother gets her turn. After she had spoken I had to ask a couple others if they also were hearing what I had. In the speech, instead of reflecting upon the good memories of our upbringing and making people laugh through positive and nostalgic memories, she instead mentions a time of great pain for me and my family. She brought up my anger issues where I didn't know how to manage my emotions and ended up punching some holes in walls and doors (this was when I was around 11-13) and was suffering a lot of abuse from school and no emotional support from her. She said that when I punched a door once, that I had aimed for her face and missed (which wasn't true, I had stepped past her and then lashed out). She then carried on my passion for playing Volleyball and my talent as a spiker. That every time I hit that ball, I would imagine her face as the ball, which was again untrue. My mother had also mentioned similar things about both of my sister's experiences and it seemed like she was throwing us all to the dogs in front of our close friends and family. After this she mentioned that she was proud that we had sort of survived and carried ourselves despite the abuse we had suffered as children. The abuse she's referring to is not associated with herself, but the fact that our father had gone to prison when we were young and is not (for the most part) in our lives today. Because I'm on a roll I'm going to mention a few other things that she's done. I remember going over to my family's house to mention to my sisters and mum that I had been diagnosed with depression and that I was going to try out therapy. I got Mum and my younger sister into a private room away from other people and explained to them what was going on. In the same conversation that I had mentioned my depression my mother decided it was convenient that she was now dating her best friend's ex-husband and was going to move away. One other thing was I recall wanting to speak to her face to face because I had questions about my upbringing and to do with her parenting. It took close to a month of hassling for her to actually meet with me, and that ended up being me coming to her. When I addressed her with the questions she never once gave me an answer that placed her responsible for any of the decisions that lead to the position we were in at the time.

Thank you Andkon, Tony and I had a chat about it away from here and helped me understand. I think the only reason I want the stop is to give her a chance to redeem herself, but I don't really want to do that either because I've given her enough chances. Thank you for your help You've helped me better understand the meaning of my actions.

Tony, Thanks again for taking your time Has anyone stuck up for you or sided with you in the past? Not anyone in the moment but my cousin is on my side about this and also one of my brothers who I discussed with about my mother has acknowledged what she has done and he himself has spoken to her about it so I do have some support regarding my decision. Has anyone acknowledged your concerns in a way in which you were satisfied in the past or recently? I'm not exactly sure how to answer this. Best I can say is that I have people in my life who understand the decision I'm making and also will support me through it. If you cease contact can you handle any abuse which may be directed at you by family or friends? I'm not really sure if I could, I suppose I'd be considering breaking contact with them also. If you cease contact can you still manage financially? Financially I'll be fine, I don't receive anything from my parents which is something I'm used to. Before you do it can you get access to someone who can be council for you emotionally? If you're referring to therapy it's something I'm going to need help with regardless. I've been looking at it for a while but currently can't afford it financially. Being a student can be difficult sometimes.

I guess I'm worried about her family, not including my siblings, siding with her instead of realising the decisions she has made were what caused it. I spoke to a friend recently about it and she asked "Why does it need to be an event?" because my plan was to see my mother in person and tell her that this relationship is over. I figured that the ending of a relationship needed a definitive stop. I did some reading through the forums about some others who have "defooed" and haven't had a definite "stop", they just stopped having contact with them.

Hey Tony, Thank you for taking your time to reply, I do appreciate it. I have been discussing it a lot with my cousin who's also here in FDR and he's been the main person, other than myself, in helping me make steps towards self knowledge. He's been listening to Stefan for longer than me, began reading a few of his books and has a good knowledge of my past. I want to end the relationship because in my life she is the embodiment of low achievement, doing the very minimum she can to get by. Also her actions have constantly proven her to be untrustworthy. She often lies to me when I have questions about things that have happened in my childhood. Yes I have spoken to her about my concerns and she would turn the conversation to make anyone but her to blame.

Hey everybody, So recently I've been getting into self knowledge and starting to process my childhood. A conclusion I've come to is wanting to end the relationship with my mother. I was just curious if anybody might have any suggestions on preparing or how to conduct the ending of the relationship. I've started reading Real-Time Relationships and also recently picked up a book called 'Breaking from your Parents" by Daniel Mackler in case that helps.