mshidden

I admit it, I brought it upon myself, I am the bad guy for calling you intellectual cowards, I take full responsibility for all the anger, but really you don’t have a problem with putting Marry in a Wood chipper, without knocking her out? No one even bother to call me out on that bit of detail. The only thing I can believe is that you are not capable of getting your priorities straight. My Spelling that bothers you, but putting Marry in the Wood chipper, Oh that’s ok. I can not think of a more diabolical act, but to that I get no reaction. And you wonder why I say you have no Compassion. The Reason my words sound hollow to you is because you lack Compassion. That echo, that is where your heart is supposed to be.

Awesome Idea, would you like to see the simulation of what would happen, it looks something like this Rimmer experience. Awesome Idea, would you like to see the simulation of what would happen. It looks something like this Rimmer experience.

Thanks for reading it, we are who we are, the best we can do is be honest and try. The reputation system is broken... it's a bad idea how it is implemented and the way it is used is a form of black mail, to silences decent from the norm. What ever that is on this board. Sorry touchy subject.

You lack of understanding is exemplary to a whole host of biases, concerning learning and communication. I will not hold you accountable, but I do feel it is right that I let you know that your assumption are in error. As for the blind man turnabout is fair play, thanks for reading my post inspite of yourself, and keep an eye on that OCD of yours, because it bound to drive a few people crazy, and it maybe someone you want to like you. You have just convinced me, Stefan is dangerous.

Their is no government in this example... you are projecting. This is on the local personal level... what do you do not what government should do. Yes thus far no one has seen that... but yet some have used government power to punish Mary... interesting right? I said social work I did not say government social worker.

Pulling the Fire alarm at the FDR Forum and the Compassion test. I have come to realize that I am first and foremost compassionate, not just to those with, but for those without, not just for those that always do good, but for those who sometimes do bad. I do not need a universal ethic to tell me “first do no harm…” but I am glad somebody else wrote it so I can put it in quotes. No one on FDR was willing to apply UPB to find a compassionate resolution to the Marry Problem. Yes, all the closed minded talk was about the Mary problem, it was all about the lack of compassion for Mary and the lack of compassion for me. Yes some of you had compassion for me, and thank you, but what I really wanted to find was compassion for Mary. I am not even sure there's enough compassion for Mary On FDR to knock her out before they put her in the Wood chipper, how very Fargo of you. I am not sure that really works, but I could not let the visuals of that slip by. Stephan, is not mean, but he does lack a good understanding of compassion, I say this because of his controlling style of conversation. Going so far as telling people they should not laugh about their problems. Sometimes laughing is all you can do, it is a coping mechanisms in this case, but it releases hormones in the brain that can help in problem solving. The funny thing about a joke is, you have to think about it. laughing is a sign of understanding and should be encouraged, not reprimanded. Seriousness is not a useful mindset, and we should not confused seriousness with focused. A comedian is focused and is in flow, when they are on stage hitting their mark, their clearly not being serious. So I hope that is proof enough for that idea. Stephan, you can not be held accountable for this behavior because you are not a licensed therapist, but please stop telling people how they should feel, it’s counter productive, and it can do real harm, and I will tell people to stop hitting their kids. Peanut gallery: “There he is going on about harm again. I just don’t get it, how can a wishy washy idea like harm have any meaning out of context.” In my mind there are 3 types of solutions in the world. Their are the perfect solutions, there are the good solutions, and then their are the solutions that work. Compassion, ranks high in my values matrix, it ranks way to low on FDR and it’s management, to support FDR, which is too bad. I will put my time money and energies in the mens right movement and the voice for men. Thank you for all you taught me in such a short period of time, it was worth every penny. Ok, maybe not, but it was valuable never the less. Oh I do have one parting Gift. Spelling? “Really” talk about a lack of Compassion, the truth is I try really hard, I have a learning disability that makes it extremely difficult to write what I have just written. “To do it, I use a voice synthesizer and I listen to what I wrote, and I catch most errors, but those fucking homophone’s piss me off. “ So let me ask you something would you tell a blind man to quit tapping his cane, because of all the noise? I don’t think so, so I suggest you get some help with your OCD, about spelling. Guilt sucks, but when people bring up spelling in a conversation about reason, I feel obligated to shame them and name them. AustinJames an acceptable Mary problem solution.

Ok but were are your self quotes it's so much cooler when you do it that way. Your Welcome:

"I would rather know the truth and be loathed, and spell bad, then be ignorant and admired." Mark Hidden

Apparently we are speaking different languages... but thanks for the comment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism

Now Nancy May feel differently, but you job is not too punish. If you think you know better show me your data? I did run this by a retired clinical psychologist, and yes indeed this is the correct course of action. And we can also say, some people know what their talking about where as others do not. So what is your point? I can only win in this interaction, I enjoy trying to get people to think for themselves, if you don't your loss...

Thank you for that I love it when people read what I wrote and then use it to make fun of me.

http://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/39778-emotional-labels-and-how-they-do-harm-the-mary-problem/

Emotional labels and how they do harm. The Mary Problem. Very few people tried to solve the Mary problem, because I think they felt is was an artificial question or, that I was trying to prove a point about contextual ethics, and they didn't want to give any ground. I really didn't think the problem was all that hard, and it should be consistent with UPB, if you have a healthy understanding of ethics. But are biases always come back to haunt us don’t they? The reason I came up with the problem, was to see how members of the forum apply their understanding of ethics, and then work from their. What was suppose to be a starting point is looking more and more like an ending point. But I am getting ahead of myself. So here is what I would do as the social worker. “Mary I am glad you realize what you did is not healthy and you told me of your own free will, that is a very healthy response. So I will not violate your trust in me, yes, society views this as a serious crime, but most important we need to understand how John is dealing with it. I have a friend Nancy she is a private psychologist that works with this type of issue. What is in the past is in the past we can’t change that, the the only thing we can do is change what is in the future, that fact that you know you are on a bad path is what we need to be concern with. Laws are to protect and serve, and should never be used to punish for punishment’s sake, at least in my opinion. You are taking responsibility for your actions, and that’s what we need in society, Elinn needs you, and cares about you, and as far as I can tell you are doing a good job, in other aspects of your life, so lets build on what you are doing right, and fix what you're not doing right. Lets don’t let the tragedy in your life, prevent you and your son from leading healthy lives” You might say I am making an excuse for marry, but I am not, you might say that this story is statist propaganda, but how is that true, if that is true, I would turn her into the police causing devastating damage to Johns support network. So I would be punishing john, for what Mary did. In the case of surgery I do a momentary harm for a long lasting good. At least in theory, would that be true in this case? I don’t think so. This is Arkansas their family services blows chunks. You can only base an action on what you know, one thing I know is that I can not change the past, no matter how much I might want to. What does punishment accomplish? Ethics has nothing to do with punishing people, if your system of ethic requires it, then I would have to ask what god are you sacrificing too? Because the only effect of punishment that I am aware of is harm. A deterrent? that seems like a path to statism to me. The way I see it is you have two option kill, or Help. I am assuming killing is not a viable option right? So you have to help, and as such throwing Merry in Jail is not helping john. If you assume merry is evil, you are wrong, and no nothing about human psychology. Evil is to act for the sole purpose of doing harm, evil is when you enjoy the pain of others. When you want to see someone suffer, for something they did, that is where evil comes from. Don’t go there, it’s not a happy productive place. Nothing Good comes from punishment for punishment's sake. Thank you for those that tried to answer this question, I have no idea who understand my point, and why I believe it to be important starting point for talking about Ethics. Here is too new beginnings. Refer to for background: http://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/39735-how-flexible-are-your-ethics-and-how-flexible-should-they-be-moral-scenario-exercise/#entry363963

Cynicist I give you credit, for trying to think about what Zmorris and I are saying, I did read his post as well, and was hmm, this is not just me, we are both picking up on the same thing. what you do with that information is up to you. Thanks for trying.

I am trying to beat you in negatives... Bro I can take that any way I want too... so thank you. It's my perspective I don't have too. Prove to me you care?

The Small print “Oh, and btw this community is closed to outsiders and new ideas” I know this not just by what is said but what is done. The message I am getting is, “We have are fearless leader Stefan to do all are thinking for us. All we do, it talk about how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is for not listening to him. Oh if you don’t agree with him, then you must not understand what he said. Here read the Bible, .. oh I am sorry I mean UPB. There's a difference between having information and having knowledge, and there's even a difference in terms of being able to apply it. Sorry regurgitating information, is not going to work, everyone has to do their own homework. Maybe in art history you can get buy with regurgitating of other peoples ideas, but if you want to learn to program, you got to do the work, or it’s not going to work out so well for you. Do you really want change, or is it more fun to poke fun at people, and turn your noses up at ever knew idea, because it might smell to you like statism. You are Stephan’s representatives, if this is how you treat people that are willing to cough up money for this silliness, than enjoy your footnote in history because you will be the anchor around his ideas. If you do not take seriously my questions, and scoff at me, as an uneducated pedaphilic Moran. Then you deserve the syspool of misfits that this forum will become, if it has not already become that backwater of malcontents. No one is free of biases, and yes that means me. It was once said to me, “If you find me at fault go and make yourself a better person.” The knife cuts both ways and I am more then willing to use it on myself, but are you willing to use it on yourselves You need me far more than I need you, there are other communities, that might actually understand the importance of new ideas, and work with me instead of against me. I have come here to work, and I put my pocket book where my mouth is, and I don’t have it to give. So far all I have seen is intellectual cowardness, when it comes to real application, you duck and cover. No Michael DeMarco I am not hunting unicorn, and the mere fact that you would suggest it, Confirms that I am dealing with an intellectual lightweight, but deffently a coward. Prove me wrong, because I love eating crow. I have a waistline to confirm it. Yes, I am willing to use what ever props I have at my disposal, to get a point across, does that seem familiar?

Talk about beating around the bush... a 3 hour replay to a simple 2 Paragraph post? That’s a classic example of a snow job. If it takes you 3 hours to make a point, I think it would be fair to call it a mountain. Seriously though is my question really that hard? I will do my homework and get back to you… but 3 hours realy? Do I get freedomainradio credits.

I am sorry I don't understand... apply your theory to the above and show me the rustles of your actions, I can be wrong, about universal ethics, but please show me it works.

Fair enough, but that is why I posted this question by itself. I never said it was OK, it is a question of what we do about it after the fact. In this case we can't prevent the harm to John, the question is what do we do about it after the fact. So I am not saying what Mary did should be consider OK, I am asking now what? And suggesting by the context that more harm can be done if we do not act carefully... I will answer more fully later, but right now I want to understand where people are coming from. The problem is theory is all well and good, but we need to know how to apply it, so I want to understand how people apply their theories and beliefs given a hard scenario. We are also dealing with a Taboo subject which makes me more than a bit nervous. So I can understand why people are hesitant to dive into it. So anyone that dose I consider courageous.

Intresty way to avoid answer the question. I did'nt ask the question because I thought you would like it I asked the question to see how many people under stand harm, and human suffering. Do we need socal workers? intresting, do we need socal workers?

Thanks for giving me a specific answer. I am going to answer this question as well, but after others have given their answers. I hope I can get a few more beside yours. So I did a new post just about this scenario. I detected a lot of anger towards me, in your last reply, which I find scary, but also very interesting. I chose the gender primarily because of a general bias not your bias specifically. Sorry if I offended you.

I shudder when someone talks about absolute moral theory, my first thought is their afraid to do the math, we are not all equal. No I am not trying to troll, I am trying to point out that ethics is situational and you have to do the moral math if you want to get to the next level of ethics. A pawn can be worth more than a queen, in some instances, this is true in chess it’s also true in life. I once played a much better chess player and beat him simply because he overvalued his queen. I sacrificed my queen for his, and he was devastated. So I was recently asked to come up with a moral example, to illustrate this point, So I thought I would share it in a new post by itself. It’s a scenario where you get to play a social worker. You are a social worker, working in Arkansas, and and Marry, a mother of 3, confess to having sex with her 13 year old adopted step son John. Marry feels horrible about it, and want’s help. She is living with her brother in lawn Eric and her quadriplegic wife Brandy. Brandy was in the car accident that killed Mary's husband and left Brandy in a wheelchair for life, needing 24hr care . Eric is a long haul truck driver, and is hardly ever home. You are checking on Brandy, it was Brandy during a private conversation, that asked you to talk to Marry to find out what was wrong. Brandy said. “Marry is such a wonderful person and she works so hard, I hate to see her in such pain, she takes such good care of me, and the house, I don’t know what I would do without her help. God has truly blessed me with her, and her 3 kids, I love having them running around the house, laughing, and carrying on, they are such happy kids, please can you talk to her and see if you can help, I know she misses her husband horribly, I am sure it has somthing to do with that.” So what do you do, and why?

Sorry, but your avoiding the question. Everything about this example was purposeful and yes I chose the genders, knowing full well that genders make a difference, in our perceptions, but I want you to tell me specifically what you would do in this case, for what ever reason.

Ok let me paint a picture for you. You are a social worker, working in Arkansas, and and Marry, a mother of 3, confess to having sex with her 13 year old adopted step son John. Marry feels horrible about it, and want’s help. She is living with her brother in lawn Eric and her quadriplegic wife Brandy. Brandy was in the car accident that killed Mary's husband and left Brandy in a wheelchair for life, needing 24 hour care. Eric is a long haul truck driver, and is hardly ever home. You are checking on Brandy, it was Brandy during a private conversation, that asked you to talk to Marry to find out what was wrong. “Marry is such a wonderful person and she works so hard, I hate to see her in such pain, she takes such good care of me, and the house, I don’t know what I would do without her help. God has truly blessed me with her, and her 3 kids, I love having them running around the house, laughing, and carrying on, they are such happy kids, please can you talk to her and see if you can help, I know she misses her husband horribly, I am sure it has somthing to do with that.” So what do you do, and why?

Yes, I am thinking of harms in mundane terms. We can even think in terms of time if it will help, any amount of time you have to spend doing something you do not want to do is harm to your freedom, and this also translates into money if you prefer. Suffering is a little harder to measure but it can be measured. Their is a theory in ethics that people stay away from and that is of moral accounting, but I am not convinced that is a bad idea, I am trying to infer it here. As I said " There is harm in allowing adults to have sex with children. " So yes I understand your point, this is more to do with the harm we cause by not handling the specifics of a situation. A good example would be necessary if this dose not make sense to you. I can not speak to Stef interpretation of a situation, without specifics of that situation. Sometimes people say things out of habit, or out of obligation, and you just simply need to call them on it, so I get that. Sometimes Stef is just making matters worse, because he is projecting, it is easy to do.