n25an

I have to say that I loved stefan's approach on this debate... stefan was dealing with the idea of basic attitudes and beliefs held by certain people groups... and the impact that transplanting these groups will have on the movement of these ideas... while adam was basically saying he wants to burn down the system and adam was arguing that no group is superior... and what adam was doing was cherry picking... for points to support his ideas... adam is the guy who would shoot to defend himself in the wrong side of town at midnight... while stefan is the guy who would not end up there... because he is aware of his soroundings... will probably not end up there...

I hear you... I don't agree but I see your point...

ok

I think you are a cool dude but I am asking how your idea of science deal with the adoption of new theories that at the moment better explain reality... I am not asking you what the theories say... for example what If a theory came into being that discounted planks constant... how would this affect your idea of science... for me in my early years all electrical circuits and electrical concepts were based on electron flow at the college and university level it was based around electron hole flow... and they took it into some very interesting directions... I figured this was mostly due to the idea that electrical circuit theory could more easily build on it... the precision and directions that the ideas went in were very interesting... another interesting idea is how today centrifugal force is not thought to exist whereas for a long time it was believed to be as real as pluto being a planet... for my sake... I adapt and have not learned to be married to any concepts... because for me a new theory can change all that... the question is are you the same... and if you are why ... and if not why...???

wow

in relation to the discourse we have been having

so how do you explain this... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_scientific_theories

do you?

so how do reconcile newtonian physics vs einsteinian physics vs string theory vs theory of everything... or the new quantum computers in development that have ones and zeros and structures that are both one and zero at the same time...

reality -- the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. which explains why theory is always changing... because man's understanding of reality always is changing... interesting...

so verifiable observable facts and statistics of a level that it can be used for reference or analysis and what's science... ???

define empirical data???

not theory tested against reality... but theoretical definition of reality... engineering is building a practical working model based said theory... cutting edge engineering... building the model based on untested ideas of theoretical definition of reality... or based on best guess or last failure... in other words... solve the problem and then figure out why it works... another way of looking at it... is to say that cutting edge engineering is skeptical or can be viewed as agnostic in relation to the ideas of the concieved boundaries of the laws of reality or known and understood theory... atleast thats my ideas... admittedly the ideas of a novice...

I have to say I rather enjoyed the points thadeus russel was bringing out. His ideas that science is basically a moving goal posts That much of our major philosophical ideas are moving goal posts Its rather intriguing... I loved his illustration about up and down... that if you drop a ball down... that depending on your perspective you might actually be dropping it up... This idea of perspective is very illustrative of a lot of things on freedomain radio. Atleast a lot of things that I have learned. A lot of things in life seem right because thats what you are taught... thats all you know... thats your echo chamber but if you take it from an outside perspective... it makes it obvious that some of our givens and standards are nothing more than golden calves and treasured notions... if not outright ivory tower and fairy tale nonsense... Thats one thing I love about freedomain radio... the ability to question and throw a hard look at things... I know there was a conflict between stefan and thadeus... stefan wanting to hold a philosophical argument to establish foundations... while thadeus was coming from an engineering point of view. Stefan's point is somethings are sacred... Thadeus argument was that somethings are sacred because thats what everyone agrees upon at the time... And to me both arguments have merit... Stefan... wanting to establish the validity of his ideas and chalenge them with new material... Thadeus... with his point of view that frankly seems more fitting of an engineer than an academic... was looking at things as they are... letting the data speak... Frankly, I would have liked to hear more of thadeus and less of stefan... I have heard stefan's arguments since time immemorial... but thadeus ideas... as applied to science... are intriguing... I am christian... but thadeus agnostic argument seems very intriguing... I honestly would have loved it if stefan would have asked more questions... approaching the subject from the point of view of his listener... less dispassionate... more openly... If thadeus is wrong... let him dig his own grave... and if he is right... not agreeing but give him time to say his peace... less gushing and triggering but more digging... if there is something stefan does not understand let it go... Leave it as an open question for his community to explain... but let the man thadeus speak... As it stands... I am going to seek out some more talks by thadeus... I feel I need to hear more about his ideas... right or wrong... we don't need to argue someone elses ideas... until we first hear them... and I honestly want to hear them...

I have a couple of questions... that might illuminate the scriptures... What is the purpose of religion? To control the masses What is the most important thing to pass down via scriptures? cultural or societal queues What are biblical stories? fables... What do fables teach? basic truths... Do religions desire the support of native governments? Yes... Why? Support equals acceptance... lack of support equals persecution... So a religions scripture or holy writing would support the ideas of the government and society that it lives in... Now lets look at the religious text... what basic idea was the fable or religious story meant to teach...??? You could judge this all by your touchstone but you have to put that aside and just see what its saying... forget about all the details and lets look at the key concept... god wants to keep man innocent... eating like animals... happy... not knowing difference between good and evil what would be good...??? knowing what benefits yourself what is evil... ??? change, progress, growth, what does the garden represent...??? a safe place to thrive... what does the devil represent... ??? an agent of change... progress... growth now the question if the devil represent an agent of change... why is he evil... ???? well some say the book of job is the oldest book in the bible... and it is one of the few books where we get a good idea of how the devil operates... his job is to observer and provide remmendations to god to advance the durability of humans atleast based on the book of job so using that as a guide... based on that logic... one could say that the devil went beyond his parameters... he did not observer and recommend to god... he took an interest in adam and eve and decided he wanted to be an agent of change and not just an observer of change... he became evil... he became an agent... and not an observer of change... he passed his place... so he had to be punished just like prometheus had to be punished... now why was adam and eve punished... because they looked to someone beside god to teach them... and why were they put out of the garden... because they would eventually represent a threat... what is the moral of this story... ignorance is bliss... ambition is a threat... enjoy your lot... and on the darker side... don't pass your place... you just might lose the little you have... Now consider societies of old... would this story's moral be an essential tenet... something that the reigning government want passed on? Yep... Now why is god plural... consider that in old societies... there were always pantheons... and christianity is based on older religions... the we could be a throwback to the idea of a pantheon of gods... remember new religions absorb the best of old religions like new movies incorporate the best of old movies... christianity did not grow up in a vacuum... it competed for an audience... and christianity is based on judaism... judaism grew up in the middle east and much of the key text... and concepts are transplants... from other cultures... why... it competed for an audience... that is how I understand it... for what its worth... that is my understanding of it... I hope my interpretation helps...