Shane

http://www.templeton.org/belief/index.html This helped me feel less like an idiot for still having questions.

Well said shirgall, I must admit that according to how everyone speaking so far has defined God, even I am Godless. I appreciate your perspective and am a bit embarrassed that it has taken so many similar comments for me to see the futility and self focus of my remarks. I am defensive and have unresolved inner conflicts, I am hungry for intelligent dialogue to help me sort through what is and is not worth holding on to. This is obviously not the place to do work through my personal issues. Correct or not, I was drawn to the title of the thread because I wondered what the group would have to say about it. I need help in this area and wanted to see an "all truth seekers welcome" sign, but it seems there are many open wounds, and like I said before it is not the best way to get the focused help I need.

What you are saying has a lot of merit and I do not want to advocate evil. However messed up and impossible it may seem, the mess is part of human philosophical development, from which or through which much truth has come. I don't recommend that a sick person return to stone aged medical practices for treatment, but to explain the basics of how medicines work there is some benefit in telling the often horrible stories of how they were discovered and how people reacted. Where ever there are nuggets of truth I think there is good in recognizing and harm in denying them.

The difficulty with this format is in agreeing to definitions of terms. I too disagree with the commonly taught doctrine of "Christians". The majority of people who self identify as Christian know very little about church doctrine. They pretend to believe what they are told they must, to maintain their membership in church tribes, lead by generations of powerful abusive men and women. If "God" is defined as: truth, existence, consciousness, independence, authority, appreciation, goodness, beauty, perfection, absolution, singularity, infinity, light (the essence not substance), love, unity, division, motion... all the necessary and yet non existent elements of all that matters in life, "He" is nothing to fear. He is not a man in the sky with superpowers. Those who understand truth may seem to have super powers, but it would be hard to argue that non existent things have independent agency. Life is good, for those who appreciate goodness, and embrace truth. Life is not so good for those who don't. If I "prophesied" that the "all mighty" truth, would be delivering consequences of pain, suffering, emptiness, and death on all who deny the authority of "his" truth: those who abandon and abuse children, lie, cheat, and steal, or simply choose not to learn truth, and that the same "all mighty" truth, would reward those who embraced the authority of "his" truth, with freedom and peace and long life, would that be sadistic, or just a statement of cause and effect? I hope that truth returns to dominate mankind. Forgiveness and love for ones enemies: I think I see these differently than you, and not as emotional conditions as others have implied. I see them as the natural byproducts of objectivity and humility, UPB. They are the involuntary result of respect for every individuals authority over all that the universe has given them or made them responsible for. Humility and respect for others is the foundation of cooperation. If a person makes decisions that deny truth and harm others I will (choosing my battles wisely) stand for truth in opposition, not to cause harm but to reveal truth. Truth is good for us even if it destroys us. No matter how many times an individual may deny truth, no matter how unlikely it is that their behavior will change, truth is always there for the taking, and with its embrace comes natural reward. I want both the abused and the abusers of the world to understand truth. Those who don't can hardly help but abuse others. Truth must be taught, exposed,and imposed, if ever the cycle of destruction is to be interrupted. Revealing truth may cause harm, but whether I am sentimental about it or not, whether I wish others pleasure or pain, whether my actions result in my destruction or theirs, neither is of much consequence, my advocacy and appreciation and fight for truth will ultimately be for the good. My understanding of the harm I have done to myself and others, is the most powerful motivation I have to keep seeking and spreading truth. It is also the most authentic proof I have to communicate my understanding. I have been forgiven by truth, the universal consequence of understanding, and I am loved and protected by truth, and by those who were once my enemies but have and continue to uphold truth, no matter whether they like me or not.

@slavik: I appreciate your humility. Stay strong in the fight. Everyone has work to do. We all fall short, especially of own expectations and ideals. There is no need to defend your condition. The more we learn, the more work we see needs done. The truth of our limitations and the consequences of our behavior are the guard rails that keep us real. The only way we get to where we need to be is by pressing on. Just remember where you came from and don't go back. I appreciate this conversation because it proves that we are changing the world. There are thousands of men and women growing in knowledge of truth, and courage to speak it.

I hope he has the integrity to admit that children are most harmed by religion, that most religions teach evil, and target children. It is evil to teach blind faith, it is evil to teach fear of supernatural entities, it is evil to teach that God will prevent the innocent from experiencing physical pain, abuse, and death. It is good to help children distinguish good from evil. It is good to teach that seeking truth and telling truth are good. It is good to teach that, in the realm of the non existent, truth is King. It is good to comfort the week and the innocent with the knowledge that, with truth on their side and eyes open and on guard against evil, their is hope. It is good to teach humility and respect and and care and appreciation for others as ones self. It is good to teach responsibility for ones actions. It is good to teach that evil is to be feared and avoided, that it is deceptive and tempting, but empty and a path to destruction. A church must teach clearly against the prior or the latter is completely negated. Did I hear that the potential evil being taught was "over their heads" and that the crafts and games made it all OK?

Feelings and descriptions of supernatural experiences do not support logical and rational conclusions, they provide evidence of confusion and instability. When supernatural experiences are offered as testimony in legal proceedings, a witness’s credibility is severely damaged not strengthened. I return to the teachings of Jesus and the bible not out of fear , blind faith, or spiritual experience, but because in them I continue to find self evident truth and profound analogies that help me to distinguish good from evil. For example: “I am“, is perhaps the most powerful a statement ever made. It can not logically be denied, regardless of who is speaking. It is the foundation of any discussion of objective truth. It proves consciousness and private ownership. It is among the oldest documented arguments for the authority of truth, and was used to unite slaves in pursuit of freedom. The Truth (self evident), the Light (exposure to truth), and the Way (behavior consistent with understanding truth), Together have the authority and power to destroy strongholds, to set men free, and to give life. “Give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar.” “Those who humble themselves will be exalted and those who exalt themselves will be humbled.” “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” “Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life?” “Love is patient, love is kind, it does not boast, it does not envy, it is not proud.” I consider Jesus a trusted source of sound teaching. The arguments that reject his authority based on final judgment and the apocalyptic writings are simply uninformed as to what their purpose and context are/were. The judge is truth, and truth always prevails. To say that all who fight truth will suffer is a statement of the obvious. The condition having been set, that the degree to which any man or woman can exist in harmony with the universe, is based on their willingness and ability to embrace truth, is also self evident.

I think that I do understand. I apologize if you feel you are having to re-live some of that trauma. I have only the expectation that you be consistent in your treatment of truth seeking individuals. All kinds of people seeking truth have only pieces of the big picture, including myself. I have no malicious intent. I hope to be humble enough and intelligent enough to recognize and embrace truth when it is presented.

Perhaps I'm being presumptuous in responding here. If so, I apologize. Is a person of virtue (honesty, humility, generosity...), who does not initiate force, worthy of respect, on that basis alone? Christianity is widely misunderstood. Jesus is the only approved model for Christian behavior, the rest are flawed attempts at best. People who respect the rights of others and humbly commit to virtue have earned my respect. The natural consequence of living in harmony with others is the evidence. Everywhere truth has ever been earnestly sought, people have become more free. The greater the number of people united in pursuit of truth, the greater the impact has been. The governing authority in the ideal christian model is universal truth (GOD), not one man or group over another, man beside man equal under the authority of truth, everyone submitting to one another as truth is made more clear. Most people's only exposure to Christianity is through self-righteous abusers who use the bible and religion to rationalize their violence. It would be ridiculous to accuse Jesus of violence.

@dsayers: Eternal torture is not taught by Jesus or his disciples. It is a primarily Catholic, false teaching. You will not find an accurate linguistic interpretation of first century church text or any other historically validated texts to support that teaching. When Jesus talks about being cast out, he is speaking of being denied access to the relationships only possible in the body of mutual respect and care. This is perfectly congruent with what I hear Stefan recommend regarding ostracizing abusers. The UPB is for abusers to be outcast, where they will rightly experience the self imposed consequence of emptiness and destruction at the hand of fellow abusers. @LovePrevails: The stories of creation, the flood, and Job were not intended to convey historical fact. They are stories, versions of the existing legends most common among the different populations of the time. The biblical versions were intended to: exclude multiple deities, rejected human sacrifice, and establish individual universal rights and responsibilities. There are several different forms of literature within the Christian bible. None of which was ever intended to convey scientific information. There are a few legal texts and historical records but the bulk is Hebrew narrative. The remainder is made up of songs and letters and poems, better understood in a completely foreign time and culture. No sincere individual refers to songs from the radio or children's books from the library for scientific theory. They can however be used to explain and express powerful truths about our culture, human emotion, and even philosophy.

corbyco, Thank you for speaking up. I have been discouraged by those who disregard or ridicule rather than engage in conversation. In my social sphere, the people who come closest to adhering to UPB are genuinely trying to emulate the humility and compassion of Jesus. We teach UPB and practice virtue, we simply refer to it as truth. Jesus life was a model of virtue: relationships over material gain, autonomy and responsibility over popularity and power, honesty and self discipline over pleasure and fantasy. I am saddened by the ridicule and disregard of Christians, because the integrity of character and genuine relationships, that have brought me so much joy and freedom, exist no where else I have ever been. I can never be put back into bondage. I hope that this FDR community can become an environment of real freedom, but as in any group, that will have a lot to do with the standard set by those with the most responsibility. I have discussed UPB and FDR with my close Christian friends. I find that their resistance, like mine, is primarily either the use of terms or the general tone of discussion set by Stefan. Truth is truth. Logic and reason are powerful and necessary boundaries. Neither I nor my Christian friends deny the proof requirements of existence. We are willing to concede that in the same way "truth" and "good" do not exist neither does God. If we share the ultimate goal of helping others to be free, to enjoy the peace and life giving fulfillment that comes from harmonious UPB, it seems counterproductive to attack any, among the desperate few, in this world who care about one another and respect life and truth and love. I understand that a lot of evil is done by those who use bibles and religion to justify their power. They do not represent Jesus. I have also heard convincing arguments for the destruction of all religion, based on its net negative impact on the world, and depending on how you define religion, I tend to agree. That said, it is dishonest to deny that the primary building blocks of UPB, are in perfect harmony with Jesus teaching: inalienable rights and responsibilities, proven by universality. Jesus boiled it all down, specifically for people to see that they were being manipulated by their leaders. He said that all of God's laws could be reduced to this: First, love God (virtue, truth, good) above all else. And second, love one another as ourselves, because in so doing, we prove our understanding of the first. Thanks again. Shane

Thank you!!! I can not tell you how much help I got from your latest pod-cast on cruelty. I have the same history as the caller. I did all the same things. Toward the end of the pod-cast my heart was begging for the man to feel the suffering he had caused, to connect with the sorrow and remorse that he had shut off. I was balling my eyes out. For the innocent that died at my hand and his and so many others. I am sad for those who may never heal, if we do not see that we have turned our human switch off, taken the place of the torturer, and choosen not to turn the switch back on. He cant feel sorrow or sympathy for the kittens, because doing so will mean seeing the horror of it, acknowledging his horrific role, and recognizing the feelings of helpless pain he experienced as a child. I could not have seen my own problem so clearly without having heard this conversation. I love you all, for what you are doing.