kathryn

Thank you for the links! I've been listening to them all. I really like the summary list you compiled of questions to ask. That is such a great shorthand to keep in mind. When someone is being critical, I so often go into self attack mode and have trouble thinking clearly. (I haven't finished listening to the Inner Critic podcast, but I identify quite a bit with the subject.) I wonder about people who seem like they understand your goals in a general way, like people that are familiar with FDR and psychology. I've been able to logically examine my parents criticisms and see how flawed and untrue it all is, but I have a harder time with people I thought were friends, people that I do have respect for. In those instances, I felt motivated to change my behavior, the way Stef discusses, but I also felt very bad about myself. I'm curious how much of that is my own unprocessed emotional issues from childhood, and how much was the people giving advice not having practical experience in achieving the goals they preach about. Does that make sense? I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and the links. I've downloaded the clips too! Those are quite handy.

Thank you so much for sharing this. It was very helpful. I feel a little foolish that I didn't find that on my own. Shifting my distinction here from feedback vs criticism to criticism vs verbal attack. I really like the way Stef discusses the need to ask questions before making any criticisms. Understanding and empathy before a critique. And criticism is so often hypocrisy. One has to be very sure they are not doing the thing they are criticizing the other person about. Again, I really appreciate you posting this. I am going to think on this for a while and watch the video a few more times to wrap my head around it all.

I'm looking for thoughts on the distinction between feedback and criticism. I think the difference is similar to that of guilt and shame. Feedback is specific and constructive and possibly elicits guilt, "I'm sorry I did something bad." Whereas criticism is shame inducing, "I'm sorry I am bad." Feedback is targeted at a behavior, and criticism is directed at the character of an individual. I also see feedback coming from a place of equality and curiosity. Criticism seems to be riddled with contempt. Does this sound right? What does everyone think about this topic?

This comparison you are making not only appeals to authority, but employs strawman and ad hominem as you are calling into question the intelligence of the people in this thread. You are asserting that we just don't get PUA instead of actually addressing the argument. This example is also a red herring as you are attempting to distract by deviating from the topic at hand. And above here you ask multiple loaded questions, where you are attempting to limit the possible responses to serve your own agenda. I have to say that I will be blocking any further posts or messages from you. If you dogmatically believe there is one right way to do things, it does not seem very productive to engage with you. You may want to listen to this podcast about Changing a Person's Mind. http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/search/252 Stef talks about how there are no positions in philosophy, just as there are no positions in science. We are here to explore and find the truth, and I do not believe that is your objective. You seem to have a clear agenda to promote PUA, which feels akin to Jehovah's Witnesses attempting to convert the masses.

MMX, I see several reasons you may not be getting your points across in this thread. First of all, the sheer volume and length of your posts is very distracting from your main idea. The frequency and wordy nature of your discussion almost reads as static at this point. I think it would be more effective to be concise. Secondly, it is very off-putting to read arguments that are so riddled with logical fallacies. You are constantly appealing to the authority of the advocates of PUA without speaking much to your own life, and you ask a great many loaded questions that only incite anger and weaken your argument. Also, using straw man and ad hominem tactics to denigrate the experiences of the other people on this thread is not right. (I don't think it is necessary to pull out the specific examples from your posts of you engaging in these logical fallacies because they are so obvious, but if you truly cannot see them I can quote examples for you if that would be helpful.) Lastly, I think everyone here should keep in mind there is no one correct way to approach relationships. There are so many differences in preference and personality, and while it is useful to discuss those differences, it is not helpful to push your own agenda on people. For example, the fact that I want children changes my perspective on relationships and raises the stakes a great deal, but if you don't want kids it makes sense that you would approach relationships more causally.

I don't mind discussing it. My husband and I has sex right away (like on the first date), and I believed at the time that it was the best sex of my life. I've tried to end the relationship several times over the last 3 years, and he always used sex to manipulate me into staying with him. You know what's remarkable? The sex was consistently good until 2 months ago when I was introduced to FDR. Once I took the red pill, sex with my husband was terrible and made me feel disingenuous and kind of icky. It's really amazing the way awareness can change you. I've always really bought into that "my mind says no, but my heart says yes" bullshit. Of course the body says yes, it wants babies! I think this has to a lot to do with the emotional neglect and abuse I went through as a kid. It's tough for me to be single because I really crave love and validation, which I never got from my parents. I've had four long term relationships in my 20s that have followed a very similar pattern... BUT I am committed to breaking this destructive cycle by taking a (minimum) six month break from dating while continue with therapy and self-work and to be celibate until I find the person I want to be the father of my children. It is extremely encouraging for me to hear that your principles and instincts are sharp enough now to resist the distraction of psychical attractiveness and see the entire individual. You've honed your skills enough now that your whole self is in tuned with your principles and that is freakin awesome. I am so inspired by all you kick ass FDRers. Integrity is such a virtue and seeing your example is such a motivation to keep working hard to live the life I want to be living. :-)

I heard that oxytocin affects women more than men from my therapist, but as I'm doing the research now it seems there is some speculation on how differently it effects the sexes. Studies have conclusively shown that oxytocin creates bonding for both men and women. And keep in mind there are multiple hormones released during sex, like one study I looked at was saying for men it was a combination of vasopressin and oxytocin that created an attachment for male prairie voles. (What prairie voles are I have no idea, lol.) I agree that the more emotional one is the more difficulties one would have with causal sex, but I think it can still be really tough. The only example I've seen of people waiting to have sex are the super religious, you know? Socially, I think people are really confused by folks who have not had a lot of sexual partners. In order to explain to yourself and others why you are choosing not to sleep around, without the threat of eternal damnation, you do need a deep level of self-knowledge and a strong understanding of your reasons. Because sex feels really good, you know? I've been going through this divorce and feeling really sad, and I've been thinking about sex A LOT. It's so easy to question your principles when you are turned on, lol. So, having that deep understanding is really important to stay strong and not give into temptations. I just listened to this podcast, and the last caller brings up some of these issues: http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/2899

It seems like the friends with benefits scenario is just letting go of so many personal standards, and I think being entangled in a relationship like that would prevent you from finding the truly virtuous person you want to be with. For myself, I know I am far too emotional to engage in causal sex. I have a hard enough time as it is maintaining boundaries with people. In my experience, if I sleep with someone, they will never leave me alone. Oxytocin is the bonding chemical. Those hormonal releases during sex create attachment, especially for women, and that can get very confusing when there is no real merit for that attachment.

He is being dishonest about his own feelings and opinions. In therapy and in discussions, I feel like he is just telling me what he thinks I want l hear rather than what is really in his head. He just agrees with what ever I say even if I'm being irrational and emotional, and tells me he is "fine" when I know he really isn't. It's like he's playing this sort of martyr, willing to sacrifice his own happiness for mine, but it's just making me feel angry, resentful, and guilty. There's other stuff too, but that's the most pressing issue for me right now...

Has your rage ever manifested in a way that wasn't just yelling? Like throwing, breaking things, or hitting someone?

I'm facing a similar situation with my husband, and I feel very conflicted. I discovered FDR through a friend about 2 months ago, and I've felt this urgency to change my life. I've been with my husband for 3 years (married for a year and a half), and we've developed all these destructive habits. A few weeks ago I felt so frustrated that I just wanted to end it and start fresh with someone else, but I was convinced to try couples therapy for a month before I make a decision. The sad truth is that the more he opens up the more I feel he is not the man I want to start a family with. I don't feel attracted to his virtues... He was dishonest with me for such a long time about his feelings that I don't trust the alleged honesty he is bringing to therapy. His deep fears make me question his capacity for courage. I keep asking myself why I married this man, and then I remember that we each had a parent die over the last three years and going through the grieving process together made me feel very attached to him. Also, my parents loved him, and I've had a compulsive need for my parents approval my entire life. So, I can relate to your conflict... I have not come up with a solution yet though. I've just been trying to be patient and allow him a reasonable time to grow because he says he wants to change. Does your partner express a desire to change?

Dan Savage

I'm very sorry to hear about the difficulties you faced growing up, but thank you for sharing because neglect is a form of abuse that isn't talked about enough. In Part 2 of the Bomb in the Brain series, Dr. Felitti talks about the ways having a withdrawn parent is as emotionally damaging on a child as a broken home. My therapist pointed out that it could be even worse, as with divorced parents there is often a legal visitation, whereas a withdrawn parent who technically still lives in the same home faces no such obligation. When your parents use statements like, "We did the best we could," they are minimizing and disregarding your experience. My mom likes to use that statement a lot, which frustrates me beyond belief because she is such an overachiever in her work and hobbies, and I know that her parenting was not the best she could do. Can you talk more about the isolation you felt growing up? What did that look like?