TheRedPanda

I see that a few people have been bringing up Tinder as a medium for finding women. Of course there are always exceptions... But please take advise and do not try to find a good woman on Tinder. I am willing to claim that 99.99% of all the women on that app is not good for any of the men smart and virtuous enough to be on this forum. You can do much better. The Tinder environment is not biologically normal, especially not for women. Having hundreds of people in your vicinity who are willing to... You know what I mean. What does that do to your mind? Your picture of yourself? Your self worth? With Tinder it will seem like hundreds of sexual partners are available to you, and you will lose the real perception of yourself in a real environment. I have seen this happen to so many women. To put it simple, it will make them think they are tens, when they are actually fives.. Not only accounting for looks, but personality, background etc. Tinder destroys women, stay away from it! You have not heard women who are on Tinder speak about men... It's horrible. Sorry about the profetic touch of this post. But I really think all you men here are better without women like this. Peace and love.

Hi everyone! Thank you for a very interesting conversation. It is quite rare to read or hear about such honest opinions on women and dating (for me). I'm so sick of the constant praising of all women on TV shows, movies, books and among female friends' conversations. In my circles, virtuous people have usually found love through common friends or social activities. A few also found their luck online. In my opinion, if you are looking for women in their early 20's you can't expect them to have very well-formulated ideas and thoughts about themselves, family values and life goals. As young women, we have been constantly fed with the idea that we can have everything we want, whenever we want it. She might not even have been exposed to ideas different from this. What you have to look for, is an open mindset and a curiosity. Go directly into conversations about family, values and philosophy. She will propably not have her mind made up about it, but if she is good, you will see that there is a will to learn more about this. And even if she can't yet think about these things the same way you can (you had 10 more years to figure yourself out, and you have not been fed with propaganda about how amazing you are), if she is open to learn about your point of view - give it a try. In my experience, young women always say they want a man who is nice, who can show feelings and yada yada. No. They want someone who can be firm, who can lead the way in life and protect them. If a girl is open-minded, humble and shows care for you, you can show her that you are such a man. You don't nessecarily have to look for the perfectly shaped woman. Find a woman who is humble and shapable. Then show her life and lead her, she will follow. All the best!

Yes, you are absolutely right to say that Scandinavian countries are expensive. I should have been more clear to say that what I did not understand with your statement was the connection between the "expensiveness" and the difficulty of being frozen out from the group. If one is a social outcast (not invited to social gatherings, don't have any friends etc), the person still will not have any troubles surviving because of economy. A person can get social benefits very easily and for a wide variety of reasons. The welfare state is huge, and it takes something like heavy druguse or similar to become homeless for example. Also, there are not any really low-paying jobs. If a person don't manage financially in Scandinavia, he has really destoyed all his chances. Again, being a social outcast won't directly lead to financial problems unless you are a drug user or have other similar problematic behaviours. The consequences I was refering to are more about social well-being, such as not having any close friends or familiy members that care about you. Being too independent can leave people careless about others. Independence is valued so high that poeple care more about their financial independence than their families. In the documentary, there is an example of a 30+ woman who values her independence more than anything. She does not want to be dependent of a man, so she has decided to become a single mother through a sperm donor. Another example is a 60 something man who commits suicide in his apartment, and is not found for TWO YEARS. And he has children. But no one missed him. Its so heart breaking. I can see this behaviour everywhere. It' s a paradox and a vicious circle. People push each other away to be independent. And they are independent because they are afraid of being pushed away. This is individualsim taken too far in my opinion. People become islands without any emotional connections. People value their individualsim higher than familiy values. Women don't seem to hesitate to put their infants in daycare so that they can get back to work and don't have to rely on their boyfriends (marriage is kind of rare these days) for financial support. Staying home with children is commonly called the "female-trap". Because staying home means you work less, which means you won't get a good pension. Which means you have to trust your boyfriend/husband to pay for you... which means you are dependent, and trapped! In a way, everybody is a social outcast. But nobody can recognize it.

Looking at the Inglehart-Wezel chart, Sweden seem to have the most indiviualist culture in the world. https://web.archive.org/web/20131019112321/http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs/articles/folder_published/article_base_54 On the same note, I would recommend anyone interested to watch the documentary The Swedish Theory of Love. It is easy to think very highly of an individualistic culture, but taking individualism and independence too far has quite horrible consequences. Not sure what you mean by "especially considering how expensive things are in Scandinavia". Could you clarify please?

Interesting post! How did you come to the described conclusion about the differences in collectivist and individualistic cultures? I also come from a very individualist country, and do sometimes hear the same... that my country does not have a culture. Of course, I could name numerous cultural phenomena that I strongly count as culture. One of which, I would agrue is a very homogenuous group-think or consensus. This is interesting since I live in the most indivisualistic country in the world, but yet we are very afraid of conflict and to stand out from the collective norm. Based on this, I find your description of negative vs. positive reinforcement very interesring. Do you have more information about that? From personal anecdotes, I would say that one can definitely "suffer" negative reinforements in an individualistic culture. Not conforming to consesus can cause people to "freeze you out" of the group in a passive way. Meaning, people wont publicly shame you, but rather stop inviting you, stop responding positively to you or simply ignore you completely. A very negative feeling, I promise you. I am particularly interested how you came to this conclusion. I have very many friends from India, a very collective culture. From similar anecdotes as above, I would say that collective cultures do have positive reinforcements too. Conforming to the collective is highly praised and people will talk very well about you to others. If you for example provide financial help to someone in the collective, people will speak highly of you, and your rumour and status will rise. Positive reinforcement. Note, I am not arguing against the points you made about negative reinforcment, but I am skeptic to it being described as only negative. Interesting thought, how would this be done? Some groups of imigrants (e.g. middle eastern) are known to live more according to a klan, do you think your suggestion could enhance this way of thinking rather than assimilating them to individualism? Also, creating fake, unnatural collectives that people shall conform to... sounds a lot like socialism Lastly, do you remember when Stefan talked about IQ and democracy? That sounds very intreseting, I would like to know more about it.

Thank you so much for your time Barnsley! I am new to this forum and really surprised and humbled by the time you (and others in this thread) put down, and the quality of your replies. You really got my mind working in new directions, and I will continue to explore this issue. Thank you.

I see! Well, definitely it benefits me. Just like in your example, the problematic alcoholic behavior only becomes problematic when some one refuses and can see the situation for what it is. When some one stops fueling the lie. Also, regarding the supporting that I put into my friends, I can see that just like the alcohol, it was somewhat of a lie. I would provide support and comfort them, but only to the extent that was still safe for them. I never addressed the bigger issue... their behavior towards men and commitment, and life-long plans. This allowed them to stay in their bubble of pretend safety. As I became more capable of seeing through our relationship, I also risked them to become aware of their bubble, or lies about themselves. Which would be very painful for them to realize. Then it is much easier to accuse the sober one for being square, and thereby disregard the truth.

Yes, I think so. I put effort into these three relationships (especially with my third friend) and was happy to see them grow. When it is my time to grow, however, all I get is rejection. This never occurred to me before, but a very interesting point is that all three do have problems with their relationships. The third friend I explained above. But the other two... One is over 30 and has never had a partner and lives alone. The other is a hard core feminist but has a relationship with a much much older man with a poor career. Could you rephrase your last question? I don't really understand what you mean.

Wow, that's quite a friend. Does your girlfriend see what you see about her? Interestingly enough, even my friend has a history of sleeping around. When she was in early 20's she had this long committed and serious relationship that I mentioned. However, she cheated on him with a one night stand, and after that... They have kind of multiplied. I also don't want to go into too much details, but let me just say that it sometimes has seemed like her prio one to get a cheap shag, considering the times and places in which it happened. I spent the night thinking about this jealousy and world view collide. It makes a lot of sense to me, that that should be the reason for her behavior. In the beginning of me and my husband's relationship (we met in our early twenties) she did not express any criticism and she hang out a lot with us. But, naturally, he and me got more and more serious, starting to build a life... While she got more and more spontaneous and reckless. If I look at the people she surround herself with, it is mostly people with similar mindset as hers, the most important part of life is to have fun and do crazy things. Our way of life is a huge collide with hers, and considering that we are approaching 30, a change of mindset is very late. I feel bad for saying this but... Considering her background of cheating and sleeping around a lot, her prospect of finding and keeping a quality man is not the best. She probably knows this, and denying our way of living is easier for her than facing the truth.

Yes, and when my quotes are put together like that it does look a bit more dramatic than how I experience it. I could definitely have been more careful with my words, I realize I am exaggerating at times. Thank you for pointing it out. I think I reacted to the word 'isolated' , because it sounds so harsh. But yes, frankly, you are right. OK, let me rephrase it more according to reality. I am referring to three friends. Two of which I had a low quality relationship with, and I was friends with them mostly because I felt they needed my support. I did not get much back from them in the relationship in terms of support. When I met my husband I was quite agreeable and had often troubles to stand up for myself. He supported me to be more honest and stand my ground. He did not push me to end it with these two friends, but as I got more honest with myself and my relationships, I pushed them away, and they pushed me away. I don't have a problem with it, in fact, I feel liberated. What bothers me is that they can't see that I have grown into a happier and stronger person, and be happy for me. The third friend I have already explained, and she is the reason I wrote this post. I also want to mention that in the recent years, I have also made good relationships with new friends who are Swedish, though the big majority of my friends are not.

I feel like you are drawing some conclusions on your own, or maybe I was unclear. About few of my friends being Swedish... I never had many Swedish friends. Before I met my husband I also had friends mostly originally from other countries. So it is not like I have become culturally isolated because of him. I just wanted to make that clear. I was sad to lose her as a friend because we have shared many fun moments together, and because I helped her a lot through a difficult part of her life - which made me believe that we were close. After all this, I have realized that she is mostly a fun person to hang out with, but probably not someone that I can get really close and honest with. Which is why now, I don't feel like it's a loss anymore. I wouldn't want to have people like that around me anymore.

Something struck me while considering your suggestions. From my experience, when women complain about something or someone it is often based on some form of jealousy. And thinking about patterns I have seen in her relationship to her boyfriend I realized this: The first time I met her boyfriend, it struck me that he both looked and talked in a very feminine way. Had I seen him on the street, I would assume he was gay. I have also met his closes friends once, all of which gave strong impressions of being hippies and day drifters... All well over thirty I should include. When she talks about him, it has more often than not been about something that he is bad at, or can't do properly. And she often has a "naggy" tone when she speaks to him. This is quite a contrast to her previous relationship, which was with a guy who was more stable, financially and emotionally - whom she would speak lovingly to. While my relationship is steadily moving towards financial stability, settling down and supporting each other... Hers seems to me to be more about parties, fun and spontaneity (all fun and games when you are 21, but at 28 it doesn't feel so glorious). I will think more about what you mentioned, but this just came to my mind very clearly and I wanted to throw it out there.

Thank you, that was many possible reasons! I will read through them more thoroughly and try to figure out which could be true for her. I will get back to you.

Hi Barnsley! I have absolutely redefined my definition of friend, and I should have mentioned that I have not spoken to her properly (just polite but empty chats very rarely) for about a year. Last I had proper contact with her was the time she called my husband a sexist. In the beginning I was very sad about the feeling of losing the friendship, then I was angry, but now I am mostly curious to why she changed her mind about me and him like this. What made me settle for my husband was mainly his virtues that I mentioned. I should also mention that the big majority of my friends really like him. It's the more feminist types that have problems with him, and me. I don't think all feminists are the same. I live in Sweden, where basically all women call themselves feminists, and I know a bunch who I believe are virtuous. In my view, many have just fallen for the propaganda of Good, or not thought through their feminist statements properly.

Hi! I have a problem with some of my friends. Or rather, they seem to have a problem with my husband. My husband is a very virtuous man with traditional values (as myself). Some of my friends have expressed worries that I am being opressed by my husband. This is of course nonsense, we do however, take on very tradtional roles in our marriage. This is of course on both of our initiative - it's not like he is "forcing" me to take good care of him - it's my choice. During our relationship I have actively worked on enhancing my feminine personality traits and qualities - which has made me a much much happier person than when I tried to enhance more masculine qualities. My husband's virtues are honesty, integrity, courage, strength and loyalty to friends and family. He is also one of the most non-feministic men I have ever met. I live in Sweden, so there are not a lot of them around. Lately, espesially one of my friends have expressed "concern" about me. She has had long talks to me several times about how I don't "need to" put up to oppression and that she is worried about me being with a sexist man. During these talks, I usually kindly tell her that I would never be with a person who oppresses me (I have very high integrity), and that my husband is not sexist - and provide her with proof and concrete examples. It's like talking to a brick wall. I am also quite sure that she is talking about this with other friends of mine. I should also mention that this behavior is exclusive to my friends of Swedish origin, and has caused me to distance myself from most of my Swedish friends. Today, I would estimate >90% of my friends are from Asia and Europe. Why do you think that a strong, traditional and virtuous man is causing this behavior among my friends? And why do you think me working on enhancing my feminine traits make them see me as becoming oppressed? And has any of you out there experienced similar things? I have my own theories, but I would be very thankful for your thoughts and opinions on this!