Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 I would say that is abuse. I'd call the police. So you believe you would be justified in impeding upon that parent's right to teach their child as the parent sees fit? Yes. Because they are endangering the life of another.
Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 I would say the answer is fear. Parents are, like all adults, afraid of how liberated children are. Rather than: "Parents spank because they fear THE CHILD and his ability to reveal them as the ASSHOLES that they are." I would say: "Parents spank because the child's freedom from society reveals them as weak and enslaved." The child is, at least at first, invulnerable to all social pressure. Think how it must feel to be an ordinary person with a sense of self-worth all wrapped-up the opinions of peers, and along comes this tiny guy who doesn't give a sh*t what other people think. I mean, man, kids run around naked in public because they don't like the feel of clothes. No shame, no fear. I hope I can be that free someday. And all that liberation reminds the parent of what a slave they are. How bound by the absurdity of other people's opinions they really are. But the parent has spent a lifetime internalizing social pressure as the moral good. So they rob the child of that freedom because being invulnerable to social pressure seems wrong. That's why parents spank. LOL.. I "return" your argument. The parent is, at least at first, invulnerable to all social pressure. Think how it must feel to be an ordinary baby with a sense of self-worth all wrapped-up the opinions of other babies, and along comes this parent who doesn't give a sh*t what other people think. I mean, man, parents run around dressed in public because they don't like being naked. Babies have shame, and fear thus are afraid to wear clothes that may not be truly hip so they go butt naked. Babies hope they can be that free someday. And all that liberation reminds the babies of what slaves they are. How bound by the absurdity of other babys' opinions they really are! But the baby has spent a short time internalizing social pressure as the moral good. So they rob the parent of that freedom because being invulnerable to social pressure seems wrong. That's why babies are so disrespectful.
Arius Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 LOL.. I "return" your argument. I can only interpret this action as antagonistic. You specifically stated that you dislike this behavior...then you performed it. You change words in my writing and don't call it distortion. That's really fucked up, man. Until now, I believed you were sincere but unable to communicate clearly. I no longer believe that. I now believe that you are neither sincere nor able to communicate clearly.
Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 LOL.. I "return" your argument. I can only interpret this action as antagonistic. You specifically stated that you dislike this behavior...then you performed it. You change words in my writing and don't call it distortion. That's really fucked up, man. Until now, I believed you were sincere but unable to communicate clearly. I no longer believe that. I now believe that you are neither sincere nor able to communicate clearly. I don't like distorting people's words, but hell if it isn't appropriate to serve you your own technique to show you how illogical it is to use that technique as some kind of rational debating strategy. I don't really have control over what you believe. I'm sincere and I communicate as clear as I can. If that isn't good enough for you then you shouldn't rack your brain trying to understand what you consider my senseless ramblings. If you don't understand me, than it's not because I haven't tried to be clear. But I think it's hilarius taking your words and distorting them now that you've shown that you have such a lack of respect for "my" writings. You've given me permission to treat your writings like Madlibs. And it really shouldn't bother you, unless you are a hypocrite. It bothers me, and I respect other people's writings, but since you don't respect my words I have no respect for yours "either".
MysterionMuffles Posted March 23, 2013 Author Posted March 23, 2013 To Everyone Else: I made the claim that my cousin and her husband had stopped spanking my neice. I regret to report that I was dead wrong. I'm not sure about the husband, he hasn't told me anything about what he's done and I haven't seen him treat her poorly since that night I made my idle threat over his daughter's future. Every time I've seen him with her, he has been playful and loving. But I am absolutely certain my cousin is the one now inflicting the spankings(...) I am sorry to put it this bluntly, but I think I have made my case sufficiently and this is very good evidence you provide: - Stop thinking that discussing the effects of spanking will change anything. Abuse will get done anyway - as you can see - and not necessarily in the form of spanking. This is not just unique to your situation, and FDR does not do follow up studies on any of these cases - that I know of - buy merely publishes people's words about how good they are to their children. - Start thinking from first principles about this - not just about god and the state - and having logical conversations with the people around you about the ways in which they justify their behaviour towards yourself and the children. - Stop debating trolls. I am available and willing to chat privately if you would like to. Good luck. Actually that does suffice. I am tending to over think it. Ultimately she's not my kid and I can do the best I can when she's with me, but whatever they do at their home is their own business. Any reprecussions they will have to face will be of their own folly and only then I must tell them...well "I told you so" is kind of arrogant and overplayed. I'd tell them "I informed you thusly!" And yeah...I don't know why I continue the troll battle. I came here after a string of video game forums in my life and I've obviously developed a keen sense of sniffing out the trolls. Moncaloono? Whether he means what he says or not, he is undeniably trolling us all and I guess my anger stems from the fact that I have a specific and personal topic I lay on the table, but it is being shoved off that table and replaced with another argument altogether. It's like shoving a Thanksgiving turkey off the table and replacing it with a sack of shit. The troll battle and the shit with my family...yeah I learned it's not my job to change anyone. All I can do is lend empathy to those who seem to be losing it before they ever reach the point of no return. It seems highly unlikely because on the flipside my cousin and her husband have the capacity to be loving and caring to my neice regardless, but it's just corrupted in a strange 180 turn of values from time to time. I'll just wait until I have my own children to fully implement my parenting technique without interruptions of its progress I guess... I realize I am trying to hard to replace her parents and even that feels wrong on a different level, just obviously not as worse as how their behaviour is that DRIVES me to act otherwise. Thanks everyone for your input, even Moncaloono who's boundary challenging ways have at least helped me reaffirm what I know is correct in my heart. I think I will leave this topic alone unless there is some more sound advice amongst the flooding troll battle.
Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 To Everyone Else: I made the claim that my cousin and her husband had stopped spanking my neice. I regret to report that I was dead wrong. I'm not sure about the husband, he hasn't told me anything about what he's done and I haven't seen him treat her poorly since that night I made my idle threat over his daughter's future. Every time I've seen him with her, he has been playful and loving. But I am absolutely certain my cousin is the one now inflicting the spankings(...) I am sorry to put it this bluntly, but I think I have made my case sufficiently and this is very good evidence you provide: - Stop thinking that discussing the effects of spanking will change anything. Abuse will get done anyway - as you can see - and not necessarily in the form of spanking. This is not just unique to your situation, and FDR does not do follow up studies on any of these cases - that I know of - buy merely publishes people's words about how good they are to their children. - Start thinking from first principles about this - not just about god and the state - and having logical conversations with the people around you about the ways in which they justify their behaviour towards yourself and the children. - Stop debating trolls. I am available and willing to chat privately if you would like to. Good luck. Actually that does suffice. I am tending to over think it. Ultimately she's not my kid and I can do the best I can when she's with me, but whatever they do at their home is their own business. Any reprecussions they will have to face will be of their own folly and only then I must tell them...well "I told you so" is kind of arrogant and overplayed. I'd tell them "I informed you thusly!" And yeah...I don't know why I continue the troll battle. I came here after a string of video game forums in my life and I've obviously developed a keen sense of sniffing out the trolls. Moncaloono? Whether he means what he says or not, he is undeniably trolling us all and I guess my anger stems from the fact that I have a specific and personal topic I lay on the table, but it is being shoved off that table and replaced with another argument altogether. It's like shoving a Thanksgiving turkey off the table and replacing it with a sack of shit. The troll battle and the shit with my family...yeah I learned it's not my job to change anyone. All I can do is lend empathy to those who seem to be losing it before they ever reach the point of no return. It seems highly unlikely because on the flipside my cousin and her husband have the capacity to be loving and caring to my neice regardless, but it's just corrupted in a strange 180 turn of values from time to time. I'll just wait until I have my own children to fully implement my parenting technique without interruptions of its progress I guess... I realize I am trying to hard to replace her parents and even that feels wrong on a different level, just obviously not as worse as how their behaviour is that DRIVES me to act otherwise. Thanks everyone for your input, even Moncaloono who's boundary challenging ways have at least helped me reaffirm what I know is correct in my heart. I think I will leave this topic alone unless there is some more sound advice amongst the flooding troll battle. You have no integrety or honor if you call people who don't agree with you trolls. I'll leave it at that. And now, I'll ignore your comments and posts since you are not an honorable debator.
Kevin Beal Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 You have no integrety or honor if you call people who don't agree with you trolls. I'll leave it at that. And now, I'll ignore your comments and posts since you are not an honorable debator. To call someone a troll is to say they lack integrity and honor. You are calling him a troll and I've yet to see you make any arguments, you just say you disagree and the burden of proof is on them. Isn't that kind of hypocritical of you?
Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 You have no integrety or honor if you call people who don't agree with you trolls. I'll leave it at that. And now, I'll ignore your comments and posts since you are not an honorable debator. To call someone a troll is to say they lack integrity and honor. You are calling him a troll and I've yet to see you make any arguments, you just say you disagree and the burden of proof is on them. Isn't that kind of hypocritical of you? Huh? I didn't call him a troll. He called me one.
Kevin Beal Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 lacking integrity and honor in a debate is what it means to call someone a troll. And you made this accusation (apparently) on the basis that you disagree which is what was the standard you provided for someone who lacks integrity and honor (or is a troll). I'm arguing that you are being hypocritical.
Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 lacking integrity and honor in a debate is what it means to call someone a troll. And you made this accusation (apparently) on the basis that you disagree which is what was the standard you provided for someone who lacks integrity and honor (or is a troll). I'm arguing that you are being hypocritical. I made the accusation based on the fact that he called me a troll. I'm not hypocritical for saying that a person who resorts to calling people who they disagree with "troll" has no honor and integrity. Call me a troll for debating on a philosophy forum and I'll say you don't have integrity. I haven't really insulted anybody. I've only returned insults. Is it your desire that I return the insult you have just thrown at me? Should I return it equally for some reason or should I go full throttle and try and hurt your feelings transparently? I don't want to, but I mean, you keep barking up the wrong tree.
Kevin Beal Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 I made the accusation based on the fact that he called me a troll. I'm not hypocritical for saying that a person who resorts to calling people who they disagree with "troll" has no honor and integrity. Call me a troll for debating on a philosophy forum and I'll say you don't have integrity. I haven't really insulted anybody. I've only returned insults. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Rick Horton Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 I made the accusation based on the fact that he called me a troll. I'm not hypocritical for saying that a person who resorts to calling people who they disagree with "troll" has no honor and integrity. Call me a troll for debating on a philosophy forum and I'll say you don't have integrity. I haven't really insulted anybody. I've only returned insults. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. I see you've highlghted part of my quote. Do you have a problem with that part? I don't know what your reply means so I'm nuetral on it, for now.
Kevin Beal Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 The rule: people who call other people trolls are trolls You proposed this rule and by doing so called someone a troll. So by your own standard you are a troll. The shakespeare quote "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is to suggest that there is a distinction without a difference. Or in other words "lacking integrity and honor in a debate" is actually not different from "troll" (hence the first line of this response).
MysterionMuffles Posted March 23, 2013 Author Posted March 23, 2013 yeah Moncaloono, I don't know what your problem is. I've shown nothing but consideration for your arguments but you just keep disregarding everything I say and reinstating what you already firmly believe. At least I'm taking in new information and disputing that in particular instead of making the same argument over and over again. We can say we're done with each other til our keyboards break, but the fact remains; you're the only one still trying to engage in this after you explicitly THREATENED me a few posts back. I think you're well deserving of the title of a troll if you're gonna act plenty aggressive towards me and then act like it didn't happen without any mention of it or even an apology. You're not even taking responsibility for how you rub me the wrong way. At least I've shown you SOME compassion in that I accept your arguments as yours and have yet to brush any of it off as baseless. CLEARLY reason doesn't work with you because you've grown addicted to the "not" abuse your parents treated you with. Your justifications for the way you were treated by them is already enough evidence for me to know that you're just acting out. You want to test boundaries, and you did that with your parents on purpose, and you got the slaps. Enough of them to TEACH you a "good" lesson. But now that you're an adult with a heavy burden on your shoulders, you're starting to realize just how shitty you lost as a kid despite of how hard you try to defend your parents. I don't care by this point to even consider if they provided you the essentials. The main fact is that they treated your poorly enough, and you haven't done the right self work recognize when you're wrong and admit it. So you feel the need to take it out on us anonymous online folk because here you can test our boundaries all day long with your senseless banter and NOT get those slaps you so definitely crave. You kind of get them in the form of everyone else railing against you and rightfully so, but I know even that inner sadist within you likes the fact that you're taking on simutaneous amounts of people. Ah I can't believe I wasted another 5 minutes typing up two paragraphs you will obviously not read anyway. For you to tell me that you're not gonna read my comments anymore is laughable seeing as you never really read what I said up to this point anyway. WHATEVER GO AHEAD, accuse this post of being passive aggressive. To me it's like a game now: how irrelevant will Moncaloono's next post be? I WONDER!!!
masonman Posted March 23, 2013 Posted March 23, 2013 Yes. Because they are endangering the life of another. But the child wont die from it. The child will simply be in pain.
Rick Horton Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 yeah Moncaloono, I don't know what your problem is. I've shown nothing but consideration for your arguments but you just keep disregarding everything I say and reinstating what you already firmly believe. At least I'm taking in new information and disputing that in particular instead of making the same argument over and over again. We can say we're done with each other til our keyboards break, but the fact remains; you're the only one still trying to engage in this after you explicitly THREATENED me a few posts back. I think you're well deserving of the title of a troll if you're gonna act plenty aggressive towards me and then act like it didn't happen without any mention of it or even an apology. You're not even taking responsibility for how you rub me the wrong way. At least I've shown you SOME compassion in that I accept your arguments as yours and have yet to brush any of it off as baseless. CLEARLY reason doesn't work with you because you've grown addicted to the "not" abuse your parents treated you with. Your justifications for the way you were treated by them is already enough evidence for me to know that you're just acting out. You want to test boundaries, and you did that with your parents on purpose, and you got the slaps. Enough of them to TEACH you a "good" lesson. But now that you're an adult with a heavy burden on your shoulders, you're starting to realize just how shitty you lost as a kid despite of how hard you try to defend your parents. I don't care by this point to even consider if they provided you the essentials. The main fact is that they treated your poorly enough, and you haven't done the right self work recognize when you're wrong and admit it. So you feel the need to take it out on us anonymous online folk because here you can test our boundaries all day long with your senseless banter and NOT get those slaps you so definitely crave. You kind of get them in the form of everyone else railing against you and rightfully so, but I know even that inner sadist within you likes the fact that you're taking on simutaneous amounts of people. Ah I can't believe I wasted another 5 minutes typing up two paragraphs you will obviously not read anyway. For you to tell me that you're not gonna read my comments anymore is laughable seeing as you never really read what I said up to this point anyway. WHATEVER GO AHEAD, accuse this post of being passive aggressive. To me it's like a game now: how irrelevant will Moncaloono's next post be? I WONDER!!! All you are saying here is that if I don't accept your arguments then I don't listen to reason. But your reasoning is lacking compared to mine in this area so of course I'm not going to concede to your wrong-headed views. Calling my posts irrelevant doesn't mean anything when they are more accurate than yours.
Rick Horton Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 The rule: people who call other people trolls are trolls You proposed this rule and by doing so called someone a troll. So by your own standard you are a troll. The shakespeare quote "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is to suggest that there is a distinction without a difference. Or in other words "lacking integrity and honor in a debate" is actually not different from "troll" (hence the first line of this response). I think you read something wrong because I never called anybody here a troll.
Rick Horton Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Yes. Because they are endangering the life of another. But the child wont die from it. The child will simply be in pain. Oh. Is this a tradition somewhere, like body peircing in tribes?
Rick Horton Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 ^^Passive aggressive posts^^ I was talking to somebody else, and no, it is a serious question. Tribes and cultures have different ways of raising members and a lot of times there are initiations, and rites of passage, and spiritual beliefs that they value. Maybe in some tribe it is considered absolutely normal to discipline kids with rods until they show blood. Maybe the bleeding has a different meaning spiritually and the children grow up feeling different about it than you might think. They may associate it NOT with fear or abuse but with spiritual healing. Who are you to say?
masonman Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Yes. Because they are endangering the life of another. But the child wont die from it. The child will simply be in pain. Oh. Is this a tradition somewhere, like body peircing in tribes? No its just a woman spanking her child until blood is drawn as the standard of punishment. It does not kill the child, doesn't even do much damage, just causes a bit of pain. Why is it bad for her to do that?
Rick Horton Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 Yes. Because they are endangering the life of another. But the child wont die from it. The child will simply be in pain. Oh. Is this a tradition somewhere, like body peircing in tribes? No its just a woman spanking her child until blood is drawn as the standard of punishment. It does not kill the child, doesn't even do much damage, just causes a bit of pain. Why is it bad for her to do that? How much is not much? I mean I need to know the specifics. Born in USA, I'm pretty conditioned to see something like that as abusive because there's blood. How much blood? Will it scar? How long does the pain persist? Does it prevent the child from doing normal activity? How long does it take to heal? If I'm supposed to judge another parent in a family outside of my own I need a whole lot of details like this. If you answer these questions I'll judge based on my own set of beliefs very honestly. Aside from this though, until you give me the specifics, I have a question for you. Lets say a parent beats his child nightly until that child has many broken bones and the parent makes the child eat from a toilet. What are you, as an anarchist going to do about it?
MysterionMuffles Posted March 24, 2013 Author Posted March 24, 2013 ^^Passive aggressive posts^^ I was talking to somebody else, and no, it is a serious question. Tribes and cultures have different ways of raising members and a lot of times there are initiations, and rites of passage, and spiritual beliefs that they value. Maybe in some tribe it is considered absolutely normal to discipline kids with rods until they show blood. Maybe the bleeding has a different meaning spiritually and the children grow up feeling different about it than you might think. They may associate it NOT with fear or abuse but with spiritual healing. Who are you to say? Who am I to say? Well I am [8]the Magical Man from Candy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house at Lollipop Lane[8]
MysterionMuffles Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 I know this topic has ended quite a while ago, but I would like to say thanks once again. I think I realize what it means now that I need to make the argument from morality instead of effect. Maybe I mentioned it already, but I have no way of knowing that amidst the troll battle that killed this topic initially. Also too lazy to go through the pages lol. But I realize now, my approach of course was wrong because those scares about the future of my cousin's child does nothing since it's not immediate. What matters is the now and how everyone feels about it. I listened to a few podcasts as well as kept in mind all of your advice, and I think I'm better prepated now to confront my family on this if the time ever comes. Fortunately there hasn't been any abusive episodes, and it's not like I'm hoping for it to happen, but if I catch wind of this kind of maltreatment again, I will turn the questions inward into my cousin and her husband, asking them seriously if they think using physical violence to modify behaviour is moral. And if they would hit each other to have the same effect. Yes my neice is the catalyst for this, but I dont think she really has anything to do with their problems with themselves.
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