Dysfunction & Adults that think they are being playful with children when they're not

[godwin_anarchism]

I have a mom that will slap children, and verbally put them down and call it playful teasing.  She is now doing this with her grandchildren.

During a family gathering (annual), I was teaching my niece(9) to hulahoop, and she was showing off how she could do it, saying "hey look!".  My mom then swooped in and slapped her behind, making her lose her concentration and causing the hoop to fall.  Then my mom started laughing at her.  I told her to stop it.  She said she's just playing with her, and why can't I ever understand that? Then she started criticizing me with the same old crap ... I'm over-sensistive, my siblings didn't complain, not everyone takes everything so seriously...

I should add that my niece's father (my brother) is typing away at his laptop across the room and doesn't move or look up.

It's creepy.  I believe my mom doesn't like to see children happy.  I remember that whenever I (or my siblings) was happy for some reason, she'd interrupt with a physical slap or put down, or snatch away the toy, laughing like it is funny.  Whenever I complained about it, she would launch into a lengthy criticism of me, so it was useless. She doesn't really pay attention to us otherwise.  We just learned to play secretly. She's not actually interested in playing with children in a normal way.

When I took my niece out for ice cream later, she asked me "um, why did gramma hit me on my butt?"  I told her it's nothing she did, that gramma grew up in a different time and place, and doesn't know how strange she is.  Then I told her not to feel an obligation to please adults.

Is there a way to get through to my mom?  I think at this age, there is not much hope.  She gets so defensive.  Was my explanation to my niece sufficient?

My brother is a weird one too.  I could be murdered and raped in front of him and he probably wouldn't even look up from whatever he's doing.  He'd probably say later on that he didn't notice anything.

[LiberalRaver]

Hi Godwin,

I'm so sorry you have such a cruel mom and a totally uncaring brother

That must have been horrible for you to grow up between them

Great you supported the slapped child.

You sound very aware of what's happenin around you. How do you think you succeeded in keeping your senses growing up under such a mom? 

[godwin_anarchism]

Thanks LiberalRaver:

I figured out early that something was wrong with them, kept to myself, and avoided them as much as I could growing up.   Their general disinterest made it easy.  I just had to watch out and take care of myself so as to not attract my mom's attention.

The issue has resurfaced recently because she's starting the behavior with my niece and nephew now.  Now that I can speak to her as an adult, I am trying to see if there's a way I can get her guard down, and communicate to her that it's not appropriate, especially the put downs because it makes me cringe when she starts doing that to them.  She gets so defensive when I tell her to stop.  I consider my brother a lost cause because he always says he didn't see anything or he doesn't remember.  If I try saying something to him at the time, he ignores me.  I think it is his way of avoiding her.  I'm not around them much, but I see the same dynamics each time and it frustrates me.   So, if anyone has any helpful suggestions ... I'm out of ideas.

[Nathan T_ Freeman]

I am trying to see if there's a way I can get her guard down, and communicate to her that it's not appropriate, especially the put downs because it makes me cringe when she starts doing that to them.  She gets so defensive when I tell her to stop.

It's clear from your language here that you're being gentle and submissive in the interaction. Stop that. Be assertive and be vulnerable. Don't ask her to stop; demand it. If she argues against you, let your reaction flow naturally. Don't use words like "appropriate" and instead use words like "wrong." The more you are reserved, the more she will assume that she's right.

I have the good fortune to have a mother who is not aggressive, but she still makes errors of authority with my kids. I don't equivocate when she screws up: "Mom, if you listen to what you just said, you'll realize that your granddaughter won't want to talk to you any more. If you want her in your life, you need to act like it." Sometimes it's difficult, but the success rate is 100% so far.

I understand that not every relationship can withstand that kind of direct honesty, but please at least consider it a starting point from which you can work backwards into more subtle approaches.

[Stefan Molyneux]

It sounds like these interactions change your authority as a father; your neice sees you being submissive to a bully, I would strongly advise against showing that, it teaches her that virtue loses.

Be aware, though, that if you stand up for what's right without any support from your brother, you may end up ostracised.

I would go with talking to your brother first.

[godwin_anarchism]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Yes, I worry about the message my niece is getting when she sees us appease my mom, but direct criticism is what sets my mom off the most.  It's been tried, and it makes her hostile.  She responds to non confrontational approaches (like "hey, we don't have time for that now!", "can we talk about something else?") but it is only temporary, because of course, she still won't accept that what she's doing is wrong.  No one wants to get into a scene with her.

I've tried talking with my brother before.  He is a giant wall of denial that I've never been able to crack.  He will defend himself and yell back when she tries to mess with him, but if I try to point that out, he'll deny she did anything or that anything happened, even right after the episode.

I have no fear of ostracism.  It's quite the opposite, with constant pressure to attend family events that I don't enjoy.  She fears rejection and is obsessed with public appearance of looking like a perfect family.  I've identified those as the only points of leverage I have to reason with her.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

 

No one wants to get into a scene with her.

 

Then want to get in a scene with her.

-Dylan

[STer]

Doesn't anyone else think it's important to accurately diagnose the people involved here? The situation is very different if there are people with serious personality disorders involved as opposed to people who are just wounded and defensive.

Also doesn't anyone think, above all, it may be a chance to teach the niece - in some age appropriate way - about whatever the reality of the situation is?

There are some people who, sadly, are completely and utterly resistant to change. And if that's the case with these people and the niece is stuck living with them for quite a while more, wouldn't the best strategy be to somehow give her the tools to come out of it as intact as possible, without blaming herself, and with the skills for how to negotiate with the types of people she's going to have to deal with?

It's a delicate situation. You can't necessarily, at her age, just tell her the whole truth in plain English. She might repeat it to someone and get in even worse trouble. But there have to be some ways to sort of bolster her so she can better survive this. Perhaps the best answer of all is to find a therapist who specializes in the types of disorders involved here and get their professional opinion on what can best help this niece.