So a day or two ago I got a $2 donation with no note from the donator...

[Stefan Molyneux]

So a day or two ago I got a $2 donation with no note from the donator, and I posted this on Facebook:

"You received a donation of $2.00 CAD from..."
I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but...

My post promptly lit up with a vehemence that was probably visible from space. (If you’re interested, and have a strong stomach, you can check it out here:https://www.facebook.com/stefan.molyneux/posts/10151611301626679) 

I don’t remember many people asking me why I was sad to receive a $2 donation, but for those few who were curious, I will tell you.

Let’s call the donator “Bob.” Why would Bob send me $2?

First, Bob might really love Freedomain Radio, but sadly is completely broke.

I have said many times that I don’t want donations to my show to be financially difficult for anyone. When people write to me saying that they are broke, but want to donate, I thank them but tell them to keep their money and take care of themselves first. In a recent Freedomain Radio Sunday call in show, one listener wanted to quit college and donate all of his tuition fees to Freedomain Radio. I thanked him, but refused. If he stays in college, he'll need the money – if he quits college, he'll need the money even more!

If Bob is so broke that $2 is close to the maximum of his disposable income, I don’t feel comfortable accepting it - I mean, what if Bob suddenly needs to take a bus to the hospital? (I used to refund these small donations with a note of thanks, but then some of the “donators” went on Facebook complaining that I was rejecting their generosity, spitting in their faces, etc. etc.)

So I don’t feel comfortable accepting Bob’s last remaining two dollars, but refunding it sometimes leads to more problems.

That makes me feel sad.

The second possibility is that Bob has a lot more disposable income than $2, but has only listened to a few shows, and really likes them. However, if Bob likes Freedomain Radio to the point that he wants to donate, then clearly he’s going to continue listening, so why not just wait until he has listened to more shows, and donate then? Imagine if I went to a convenience store knowing I wanted to buy 10 packs of gum, and then paid for each one as a separate transaction – and with Visa! Clearly I’m imposing unnecessarily high costs on the store, and doing something quite irrational. If that is Bob’s level of thinking, that makes me quite sad.

Ah, but perhaps Bob has only listened to a few shows, doesn’t like them, and is not going to listen to any more. If so, then why donate? That seems like blindly following “orders,” which also makes me sad. Or, he is just spending 10 minutes sending me $2 so that I really understand that he doesn’t like my show and isn’t going to listen to any more.

(Of course, if Bob has only listened to a podcast or two, and doesn’t like my show, he’s not going to be following me on Facebook, so if I post about the $2 donation, that isn’t exactly going to hurt his feelings.)

Now perhaps there is some other reason for a $2 donation that I haven’t thought of, but that is easily taken care of. Some people who have sent me very low dollar donations have included a note – very easy to do – letting me know why, which is much appreciated. For instance, somebody send a small donation yesterday, but included this nice note:

“Thank you Stefan for all of your hard work. I am regretful that my donation could not be more. I frequently share your links and try to present them as professionally as I can to engage those more well off to assist in your endeavors. I'm a poor artist ;(“

If I were to send someone only $2, I would tell him why, just so he wouldn’t feel bad. If I sat through a three hour “pay what you want” concert, and then went up and handed the sweaty musicians $2 and walked away without a word, how would they feel?

If Bob sends me $2, and doesn’t have the basic empathy to understand how that can make someone feel, then I feel sad about that - for Bob.

Another possibility is that Bob is kind of vindictive and mean, and wants to send me a tiny donation so that I feel bad.

That also makes me feel sad.


This is not exactly an exhaustive list - I’m sure there are other possibilities - but I hope it gives some sense as to why felt sad, and hopefully that it can be of some value to ask a question or two before indulging in a silly flamefest that doesn’t make our community look overly rational and mature.

[ribuck]

What an ungrateful post!

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

[Tony]

I think I would feel the same in your position Stef. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I thought of after going through the various possibilities that you listed in your post; You felt sad because you had an internal premise that the low donation reflected in some way the state of the world as it is. i.e. What kind of world am I living in when billions go into the coffers of lying priests daily and so little into spreading philosophy?

Maybe this will reassure you, your work has an exponential effect. I found you on my own, but all my current friends found you through me. And they love it.

Just keep doing what you're doing.

[mike durland]

After reading this I feel the urge to explain my tiny $5donations.

I am a single father, unemployed and most of the time I amflat ass broke. When I make my small donations it is when I sell something onebay and I have money in my paypal account.

Since I am broke I really shouldn’t donate, but it is a wayfor me to feel better about myself. The small amount does not, or at least isnot intended to be a reflection of the value of the content. My thinking isthat if more people give what they can then maybe it will make a difference.

Anyway Stef, when I saw your post on facebook I didn’t have anynegative reaction to it… Even though I was one of the low $ donators.

[J. Robles]

Hey Stefan,

I wanted to just say sorry about what happened to you over the weekend. I appreciate your explanation and link to your Facebook page. I don't know how it feels for someone like yourself to be a leader in the philosophy field, make incredible videos that aren't just entertaining like most podcasts, but more importantly enlightening at least me to see what virtue looks like, and then have your audience attack you in such a mob fashion. How are you feeling after a couple days after such a crazy situation? I hope it hasn't been to harmful, I mean it’s a good thing because you know who to oust within your Facebook friends, but I know it must have hurt a bit emotionally trying to deal with such a vitriolic remarks. Thankfully within the FDR community I have always had positive and accepting individuals to interact with. In my personal circle I know that being open just with your emotions, let alone principles, can and typically make you a target for people. From the small attacks I have gone through I know it hurts like a dagger slowly twisting in your soul. I know that the sincere community, you, and your family know of the amazing job that you are doing. Keep your head up, you’re an amazing person, and your work is one of the most valuable things I have access to.

Thank you

Juan

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Okay Stef, in the effort to make sure you're getting optimal financing, I'd like to ask this in order to clear it up for me.

I am currently a $5/month donator. I would wholeheartedly agree that this is a measly amount considering the amount of media I watch from you, and I'm giving the age-old "I'm a broke bastard" as my defense for doing so. Despite your mention that you don't want having to donate be financially difficult for anyone, I still manage to have a place to live, to have a computer, to have access to the internet, and I somehow manage to buy myself things like beer and coffee occasionally throughout the month. Thus although $5/month represents enough beer to drink comfortably for an evening, month-wise it's not like I'm going to have to face the fear of going sober.

I had originally donated nothing, as I felt I didn't have anything worth giving (I felt five bucks a month was more like a slap in the face than anything else). I then heard you describing as a side note in another podcast about how something like 1-2% of listeners donate anything at all. I re-thought my feelings on the $5/month thing and came to the idea that if you were able to get 5 (hell, even 1) dollar a month from 10% of your listeners, it might not rocket you into the land of riches, but at least it could provide some level of monthly security knowing "okay, at least I know this much is coming in". Thus I tossed some money on my Paypal account, and clicked on the $5/month donation button. My beer budget cried a little, but I just yelled at it to get a job.

So then the question is: is a $5/month donation worth it? Would it be better to get a $50 in one chunk or $5 reoccuring in ten months (I know small individual transactions eat the money up, but does this occur for reoccuring transactions as well)? Would it not be a good a idea to try to get a baseline of people donating a small amount of money on a monthly basis, especially if you can get it up to double digits? I'm just shooting in the dark here and I'd like to know the most effective way of helping out without slap-in-the-face-sized donations.

-Dylan

 

[pretzelogik]

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

[Alan C.]

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

Lashing out is the result of enduring years of condemnation from various people (eg. parents, peers, authority figures, etc.).

Stef's Facebook post was interpreted by many people as contemptuous. Of course, this doesn't justify the deluge of vitriol. Stef's popularity has attracted a contingent of detractors who look for any opportunity to pounce on lapses or blunders in order to make a spectacle.

I don't find this to be productive at all and it would be best to move on and not spend any more time on it.

[mike durland]

It is amazing how people sell stuff on ebay for $2 freeshipping… 

[Nathan]

Years and years ago bought a three dollar drink from a bartender, dropped 50 cents in his jar, he tilted the jar and gave it back saying "I think you need this more than I do."

[Nathan]

 

What an ungrateful post!

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

 

It's weird that you can write a post but can't read one.

[ribuck]

 

... The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

 

It's weird that you can write a post but can't read one.

 

I spent about 15 minutes reading Stef's post very carefully and thinking about the possible explanations that Stef mentioned for the $2 donation.

I noticed that the list didn't cover all of the reasons why someone might donate $2. I considered talking about that in my post, but I decided it would be more relevant to point out that Stef's own website encourages small donations. The donation page doesn't suggest that these small donations might cause anxiety or unhappiness.

Presumably you feel that I didn't correctly read Stef's post. Please feel free to enlighten me if you wish.

[Dave Bockman]

No, it doesn't.

 

What an ungrateful post!

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts[/font]. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

 

[ribuck]

 

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts.

No, it doesn't.

 

Well then what am I misinterpreting? Immediately above the figures "$1.50" and "$2.00" are the words "Donation Request", and to the right are various donation options including "One Time Donation" next to which it says "All support is deeply appreciated".

 

[Water]

As of the time I'm writing this, your donation page still says:

---

What is Philsophy Worth?

Number of Podcasts: 4

Donation Request: $2.00

 

All support is deeply appreciated, thank you so much for your help!

---

The most simple explanation as to why the donator gave $2.00 is he listened to a few podcasts, liked them enough to want to give you money, and picked the exact amount you asked for! 

So revise your band example to include a sign in front of the tip jar that says "Suggested donation: 50 cents per song" and ask yourself if you'd feel the need to explain yourself after only having listened to a few songs.

And revise your store example to include the sign that's in almost every existing convenience store: "Minimum credit card purchase: $x".  Convenience stores and other businesses that deal in small transactions do things to protect themselves from getting eaten up by processing fees.  I don't hear or see you taking personal responsibility for allowing a transaction you say you don't want.  You're a former CTO, aren't you?  How much time would it have taken to modify your donation page/code to prevent donations under a certain amount?  I can't believe it would take any more time than what you've already spent on this issue.

I also don't know what to think when I read your post here compared to your initial reply on facebook:

---

 I know, I know, it really does sound ungrateful, I get that, but I did want to express some frustration, because of course PayPal takes almost 20% of the $2, and then I end up having to track and record and summarize and report and pay taxes on $1.60, which I'm pretty sure ends up costing me money. I really do appreciate everyone's feedback, and I get that the comment came across as a little 'precious,' but really, I am spending enormous amount of money on this documentary, and I've never talked about small donation amounts over the past 6 years, even though it happened more times than I care to remember...

---

I don't see any curiousity about your donator's situation or motivations there, only how much money ends up in your pocket.  If processing a $2 transaction really does cost you money, then there's something wrong with the way you're handling them.  There are digital goods being sold all over the internet (songs, apps, etc.) for even smaller amounts at a profit.  Again, I don't see you taking responsiblity for this.  You chose your business model.  You chose PayPal as your processor.  You chose how to do your accounting and reporting.

What I'm curious about more than anything in this situation is how the donator felt (and anyone else who donated similar amounts) when you left your initial facebook comment, along with the follow up posts.

[pretzelogik]

I am very curious about this line of inquiry and/or the leveling of criticism and such.  I feel very close to this in that I have been very diligent in applying the RTR and NVC principles to my interactions with others and refraining from posing my responses to perceived slights in ways other than those that express how I feel.

As the last poster pointed out, there are digital vendors that deal in small transactions, iTunes for example.  I am sure they are not sad when someone purchases only one song and I totally get all of the reasons why a small donation would have caused Stef to feel sadness.

What I have experienced and what I am noticing here is how this expression of feelings is experienced by others as an attack.  Alan Chapman addressed this above by pointing out that people are used to receiving condemnation, but Stef did not condemn anyone. 

I feel a bit of disappointment that the reactions aren't geared more toward curiosity rather than attack.  "Why the long face, SeaBiscuit?"

[lyghtningrod]

Is donator a real word? Neither of my unabridged dictionaries list it. I thought the word was 'donor'

 

[mike durland]

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to 'express their own feelings'?

[Arius]

If there are enough donations of a small size, perhaps it's time to reevaluate who the audience is and what it wants.  I'm still unclear if this FDR thing is a business or not, but if it is, it should try to cater to the paying audience (Admittedly, that's not me).  By that I mean, if a large percentage of the audience is poor but generous, perhaps it's time to investigate a payment gateway which doesn't charge on a per transaction basis.  Amazon offers an extremely low per-transaction fee (2 cents on the dollar for transactions under $10).  Just the other day someone advanced a goal to get donations up to 2% of listeners.  Seems to me this is kismet.  The show needs a higher donor percentage and lots people want to donate really small amounts of money.  Why not invest in a low-fee payment gateway and introduce a new class of subscriber..  I'm just spit-balling, but what about "Mini-philosopher"?  The donor class could be for ridiculously small amounts of money, say between $.05 (the smallest amount which can be sent through Amazon) and $4.99 per month (or as individual donations), just below Bronze in the hierarchy.  I'm almost positive the total quantity of donations would rise if smaller-amount, single and multiple payments were accepted (which is a technical issue, rather than anyone's personal failing).  Plus, almost everyone uses amazon for something, so no one needs to sign-up for anything to donate.

If this FDR thing is a business, then it only makes sense to offer services which paying customers want.  If there really is a great frequency of small donations, I'd take that as a sign that people really want to donate money, but times are tough all over.  If anything, Bob's $2 is an indication that, no matter the quantity, Bob sees value in FDR.  So cheer up!

[nathanm]

I can totally see why Stef felt bad about the low dollar donation, but he created the possbility for that to occur in the first place.  If there's a minimum amount that makes it worth your while then that needs to be the base option.  If you leave it open ended and you get whatever people give you sure you can feel bad about it, but it's still your fault.

The market of the internet has conditioned us to expect to get a TON of awesome shit for free.  Personally I'm amazed at what you can get for free.  It kind of baffles me.  But that's the environment Stef's work exists in.  I dunno, I'm not sure the donation model is so great.  In my life it's been a sore spot.  That's why I like money, it takes the emotions out of exchanges between people.  If I sell something on eBay I don't have to feel sad that someone will buy my Vintage Cool Thing for 2 bucks when it's probably worth 200 cause I set a minimum.  Easily spared myself from disappointment.  Maybe it won't sell at all, which also sucks, but it's better than feeling like I got taken by the buyer.

[Formelyknown]

Wow. Talk about overthinking about a 2$ donation. If it is so small why it affecting you so much. What if need to take a bus? Really!?  That what your concern? Ok how about he gave 500$ and his car broke? 

I find it strange that you write about your sadness about 2$ now when it happenned before. Why now?

Why writing a note for buying stuffs. Do you often leaving a note on the vendor machine to explain why you took 1 can instead of buying a pack of 12?

There is strong emotional reaction about this indeed but not only from the listeners.

Smoke machine much, that original post was...

[pretzelogik]

 

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to 'express their own feelings'?

 

My wording was a little unclear, thanks for pointing that out.  I meant to say was mething more along the lines of how remarking on the nature of one's own internal emotional state, as in "I feel sad." causes people to respond with attacks: "You are a jerk for feeling sad."  It says something that rather than questioning why someone may feel sad, they immediately pass judgement.

[DoubtingThomas]

 

I can totally see why Stef felt bad about the low dollar donation, but he created the possbility for that to occur in the first place.  If there's a minimum amount that makes it worth your while then that needs to be the base option.  If you leave it open ended and you get whatever people give you sure you can feel bad about it, but it's still your fault.

 

I think this is the most reasonable response thus far.

[MarisaO]

 

 

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to 'express their own feelings'?

 

My wording was a little unclear, thanks for pointing that out.  I meant to say was mething more along the lines of how remarking on the nature of one's own internal emotional state, as in "I feel sad." causes people to respond with attacks: "You are a jerk for feeling sad."  It says something that rather than questioning why someone may feel sad, they immediately pass judgement.

 

People are not trying to say that Stef is a jerk for feeling sad. You're misrepresenting people's complaints as unreasonable, also known as a straw man argument. If you don't understand the reaction, that's one thing, but don't mischaracterize people's positions and then dismiss it as though you've made an argument. 

[pretzelogik]

 

 

 

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

 

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to 'express their own feelings'?

 

My wording was a little unclear, thanks for pointing that out.  I meant to say was mething more along the lines of how remarking on the nature of one's own internal emotional state, as in "I feel sad." causes people to respond with attacks: "You are a jerk for feeling sad."  It says something that rather than questioning why someone may feel sad, they immediately pass judgement.

 

People are not trying to say that Stef is a jerk for feeling sad. You're misrepresenting people's complaints as unreasonable, also known as a straw man argument. If you don't understand the reaction, that's one thing, but don't mischaracterize people's positions and then dismiss it as though you've made an argument. 

Below are a few of the comments extracted from the Facebook thread (there are supporting comments there too, to be fair)

 

It's incredibly trollish, disrespectful, ungrateful, etc to disparage people contributing as you ask them to.
full of sh*t
How disappointing! For someone who is supposed to be revered for his rationality and logical clarity, I would've thought Molyneux could've reasoned this one out.
You tried to shame your audience for ca$h. How very religious of you.

 

I am not making an argument straw or otherwise, simply trying to understand how posting:  "I don't mean to be ungrateful, but (-symbol-)" stirs up the desire to level attack in others.  I don't even have an argument, I just want to understand the mechanism that causes people to feel as if they are being attacked when they aren't.

 

 

[DoubtingThomas]

 

"I don't mean to be ungrateful, but (-symbol-)" stirs up the desire to level attack in others.

 

 

I think it largely stems from the fact they hold Stef to a very high moral standard and most of us view gratitude as part of that moral framework. Ingratitude to someone even as insignificant as a $2 donor, even in the light that it could have been a troll, was shocking. Then the sunday show followed where Stef appeared to waffle between it being a simple slip-up or mistake and he being completely justified in the gripe.

So, while I can absolutely empathise with Stef's frustration, I can also empathize with the frustrated donors who felt slighted.

[Nathan]

 

 

... The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

 

It's weird that you can write a post but can't read one.

 

I spent about 15 minutes reading Stef's post very carefully and thinking about the possible explanations that Stef mentioned for the $2 donation.

I noticed that the list didn't cover all of the reasons why someone might donate $2. I considered talking about that in my post, but I decided it would be more relevant to point out that Stef's own website encourages small donations. The donation page doesn't suggest that these small donations might cause anxiety or unhappiness.

Presumably you feel that I didn't correctly read Stef's post. Please feel free to enlighten me if you wish.

 

After looking at the dontion page I agree, it is a little confusing and it was not mentioned as a possibility as a case.   I also don't think everyone knows about the PayPal fees either.  This is worth strong consideration and I think it's wise to change it.

 

However, given the level of vitriol and anger in the responses to this, I can also agree with Stef that you don't get that angry about something like this without it being ... not about this.  People were not at all curious, they were very quick to anger and quick to interpret it their own way and very quick to create narratives about it.  Not only that but one person created a nasty, very stabby meme attacking Stef and his wife. 

Given that kind of response, I can't blame Stef (or anyone) for going on defense.

 

 

[Roberto]

I feel you Stefan.

I am sorry that you are feeling down.

I appreciatte the work you do and thank you for it.

[Stefan Molyneux]

Thanks, it's actually been a very positive experience overall, and it's given me a lot of empirical information to work with...

[Dirt McGirt]

Trolls will always be trollin', which is sad - but I think it's up to Stef to set up clear donating guidelines or else small donations will be a consequence.

[ribuck]

Years and years ago bought a three dollar drink from a bartender, dropped 50 cents in his jar, he tilted the jar and gave it back saying "I think you need this more than I do."

Do you think that bartender was sad that you gave a 50 cent tip? Do you think his empathy led him to honestly think that you actually needed the money more than he did? Do you think the bartender was saying this because he has found it to be an effective way to apply social pressure to encourage larger tips?

[Arius]

Social pressure.

[MattK]

I thing I find most puzzling (and also not so puzzling!), is why people spend so much time around and involved in a community, that they, in all intent and purposes, appear to hate?  For example, the above 2 posts ask a question (and posits an analogy) that seems to lead us down a road, that Stef is attempting to manipulate his audience to get more money.  Seriously - anyone who has listened to Stef and taken on the ideas here, and LIVES them, know that Stef is a good person and does not pose the qualities some people create about him.  It's complete slander.  And they've become the thing they say to hate.

[Arius]

Are you claiming Stef doesn't want more money from his audience?

[ribuck]

I thing I find most puzzling (and also not so puzzling!), is why people spend so much time around and involved in a community, that they, in all intent and purposes, appear to hate?

Matt, please don't confuse rational discussion with hate. I certainly don't hate Stef or FDR in any way.

... seems to lead us down a road, that Stef is attempting to manipulate his
audience to get more money ...

I wouldn't use the word "manipulate" here. Of course Stef wants to encourage donations, and of course he hopes to increase the number and size of donations. That's how he gets his income, and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally I think he's likely to be more successful by being humble and expressing gratitude for even the smallest donation, and honing his empathy to the point where he appreciates why he gets these $2 donations, and honing his accounting systems so that he can process small donations efficiently.

Seriously - anyone who has listened to Stef
and taken on the ideas here, and LIVES them, know that Stef is a good
person

For sure! Stef's worst characteristics are better than many people's best characteristics. But that doesn't mean people should idolise him as perfect.

Anyway, Matt, I'd be interested to know what you think about the motives of the barman and the 50 cent tip.