Marc Moini Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Marc, I have a hunch that if I asked the aggressor in your example, he would reply to me that hitting person B satisfied his need to perceive himself as "top dog", and stealing B's wallet satisfied his need for money. It would be great if we could reason with person A and help him find a better way to meet his needs, but I have a feeling it would work better for person B to guard his wallet better and keep an eye out for people about to hit him over the head. Hi ribuck, if you check the links I gave a few posts above, you'll see that these are not the sort of needs NVC talks about. The needs the aggressor might be trying to meet could be his need for self-respect (instead of the need to perceive himself as "top dog"), and his need for autonomy (instead of the need for money). The point of identifying the more generic needs, and confirming with person A whether it is indeed those needs that he is trying to satisfy, is that it makes it much easier to find other strategies for meeting these needs (because there is a much larger number of possibilities of meeting for example his need for self-respect than only through beating up people), and within that selection to select those that also meet the needs of person B or anyone else involved. With this additional information about the NVC approach, does it seem to you now that it could work to find win/win solutions? Best wishes, Marc
Mcattack Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Nothing happens in a vacuum, how did you end-up in that situation? If you are born into a cage surrounded by torturers all bets are off. I'd actually argue that refusing the food stamps would be unvirtuous because you are allow the immoral to succeed, by killing yourself.
Nathan T_ Freeman Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Hi Nathan, I'm disappointed that you are calling me dishonest, instead of trying to find out where and why we disagree on how the NVC approach does not use morality. But hey, everybody can make mistakes, it's OK. If you think I am missing something and what I explained does use morality, please point out how, would you? Best wishes, Marc Why does it bother you that I call you dishonest? Hi Nathan, it seems to me you are trying to avoid answering my question about morality, and maybe derail this thread. Please prove me wrong by replying on topic. Best wishes, Marc Why should I concern myself with whether you think I may be derailing this thread? If you'll answer that question yourself, then you'll know what my answer is to your original question.
Marc Moini Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Hi Nathan, I'm disappointed that you are calling me dishonest, instead of trying to find out where and why we disagree on how the NVC approach does not use morality. But hey, everybody can make mistakes, it's OK. If you think I am missing something and what I explained does use morality, please point out how, would you? Best wishes, Marc Why does it bother you that I call you dishonest? Hi Nathan, it seems to me you are trying to avoid answering my question about morality, and maybe derail this thread. Please prove me wrong by replying on topic. Best wishes, Marc Why should I concern myself with whether you think I may be derailing this thread? If you'll answer that question yourself, then you'll know what my answer is to your original question. Hi Nathan, I neither think you should nor think you should not, because that would be thinking in a moralistic manner and I try to avoid falling into that trap. I do believe you have a need for honesty, and a need for understanding and being understood, as well as other needs you can identify yourself from the list of needs at cnvc.org, and that in order to satisfy those needs, it makes sense for you to stay on topic. Do you agree therefore that answering your question myself does not necessarily give me your answer to my original question? (which is "If you think I am missing something and what I explained does use morality, please point out how, would you?") Best wishes, Marc
Marc Moini Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Hi Carlos, thanks for answering, i hear how you believe that condemnation and ostracization are useful in preventing people from harming others. Would you explain to me step by step how it works, from the point of view of the person who did the "immoral" behavior, and from your point of view as a "moral" member of society? Best wishes, Marc My sister-in-law and brother are compulsive liars and alcoholics. They've been given many chances, from rehab from my brother - and during his rehab my sister-in-law stated that "no one will take away my alcohol - to blanket forgiveness by my family repeatedly for their behavior. My brother received a number of DWI's, and was helped out by my father in a number of cases to help fix his cases. Recently, yet again, my sister-in-law began yelling at me in front of my family, stating that "You think you're so high and fucking mighty because your sober", which is a common theme of abusive people. They have a completely violence based relationship, though not physical violence that I know of, and they express that violent behavior on others. Due to this repeated onslaught of hate, they have been ostracized and not spoken to anymore. Let me make this clear, I realize that the first response by some people here is that my parents fucked up in raising him. But, my parents through discussions, therapy and life events have expanded their minds and have become even more loving human beings who have embraced anarchism, atheism, and have categorically apologized for any abuse while stating that my wife and I will be better parents.My brother, on the hand, is a 30 year old boy who has done nothing but fuck up his own life while blaming others and constantly lying. He should be ostracized and not forgiven because he's gone too deep down a hole of shit. Hi Carlos, thanks for explaining what you've been experiencing, that you think your brother and sister-in-law have been given more than their fair share of chances to rehabilitate themselves and that now it is well past time to stop talking to them. And that your parents have apologized for any parenting errors they made. I wonder if you feel exasperated, or whether for you it is more a feeling of disgust or contempt towards your brother and sister-in-law? Or possibly any fear as well? Best wishes, Marc
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