On Women calling men "creepy".

[kalmia]

I was reminded of the FDR sunday show (27 January 2013) 

 when I saw this.

 

http://www.rooshv.com/the-new-n-word

"The New N-Word

By Roosh

Back in the Jim Crow days, the quickest way for a white man to put down a black man was to call him a nigger. The black man would experience an immediate emotional reaction to the term and its associated stereotypes. Images of the white man’s enslavement of his people would likely pop into his head. This word was a gift to white racists due to how quickly and easily it hurt the black man.

While the n-word still has the power of insult, it’s not as strong as in the past. Today, black men use variants of it to cordially greet each other and you can find its use in rap music and stand-up comedy. As long as a white person doesn’t it use it with the hard R, insult is not automatic.

There is a word today that women have adopted as their defacto n-word when they want to put down a man of any race. It has the immediate effect of making men feel weak and embarrassed. That word is “creepy.”

Its definition has expanded over the years, going from something representing pedophilic or deviant behavior to anything which makes a woman even slightly uncomfortable. It’s a powerful word that is successfully causing men to tread carefully around women for fear of getting the stain applied to them. It’s being used to control men and make sure they don’t question female behavior and overreach.

If you see yourself as a man who believes that feminism is hurting men, and that women have gained at the cost of men, you should never use this word. It must be banished from your vocabulary. Every time you use it, you validate its use by a woman to trash your own gender, giving it even more power.

Whenever you hear someone say “creepy,” whether a man or a woman, you must stop the speaker and question why they used it, just as if they were using the n-word. Their answer will likely come down to one of two reasons:

1. A man said a critical thing which hurt a girl’s feelings.
2. A man was being masculine.

Being critical and being masculine is my human right like it is yours. Allowing women and their enablers to get away with using this word will have the end result of emasculating men who fear being labeled it.

Women know that words are extremely powerful in causing negative emotional states, which is why they are crusading against the use of words like “slut” and “fat.” While they campaign against having their behavior restrained in any way, they are simultaneously increasing the use of words like “creepy” to restrain men. Don’t let this happen. Stop using the word creepy, and question its use every time you hear it."

[Lowe D]

Yeah, I was too.  It's a common thing, unfortunately.

[MPStewart]

I don't think people should use this word to insult someone; that is, calling someone creepy does not help that person in any way and is more for the person saying it to feel superior.  It's a trump card, intended to stop any honest communication and humiliate the other person. 

However, it is an excellent way to communicate to a third party an intuitive suspicion of someone who has acted in a way that turns your stomach or makes you think twice.  For instance, I immediately thought upon reading this of someone I work with who makes frequent sexual innuendoes and brings up inappropriate (usually sexual) subjects even though he has not established any intimacy --it's a social cue that tells me, "there's something off here".  Interestingly enough, the "feminista" types I work with, who frequently remark "Men are stupid" or "I hate men", chat this guy up like nobody's business and tar other men in the office with the "creepy" brush because these men don't satisfy their egos or kowtow to their political sensibilities.  You are absolutely right about how this word is used.

I think the word is similar to "psycho" when used to describe a crazy woman you don't want to set off because she's emotionally unstable, although obviously worse as it is abused far more often.  I agree it should be questioned when used!

[cherapple]

I can think of an appropriate use of the word: If you're a child and you have no power to positively influence or escape a man—say one that you're forced to spend time with in a school or at a church, one that your mother brings home, or perhaps even your own father, if he is abusive—calling such a man "creepy" would be entirely justified for the child.

It is important to notice when you feel uncomfortable around someone, but if a person is using the word just to be hurtful, I think "creepy" might fit *them.*

[empyblessing]

America raised an entire generation of female narcissists. A two minute conversation with a woman is enough to convince me that marriage is doomed.  

 

Edit: after reading that site I can't say I support it even if he has a good point. Way too much hate going on there. 

[Metric]

My initial reaction to this is "who cares," but I guess it's also true that a lot of men haven't yet figured out they are actually holding all the cards, at least in this country (it took me a long time to realize this as well).  If you're a decent American guy, you have many, many options for fostering a quality relationship -- those "cluster B personality" chicks who are masters of the put-down really do not.  Pity is more appropriate than fear, here.

[Brandon Buck _BB_]

When I visited the website I didn't get the "creepy" vibe. I got the douche bag vibe.

This guy has serious problems with women, which is obvious from his interest in them as purely sexual exploits who are incapable of rising to the level of the male intellect.

 

Since I'm not a women, maybe I shouldn't comment but I know my wife would say he's a creepy douche bag, so I have authority by proxy. [H]

[empyblessing]

 

My initial reaction to this is "who cares," but I guess it's also true that a lot of men haven't yet figured out they are actually holding all the cards, at least in this country (it took me a long time to realize this as well).  If you're a decent American guy, you have many, many options for fostering a quality relationship -- those "cluster B personality" chicks who are masters of the put-down really do not.  Pity is more appropriate than fear, here.

 

Can you elaborate on this please? I don't understand what the cluster personality is. Also, I don't understand how men are "holding all the cards." 

And yes, women are miserable now. In jobs they hate. In debt. Depressed. Seperated from their children. Lonely. Preyed upon by the vanity markets. 

[kalmia]

 

 

My initial reaction to this is "who cares," but I guess it's also true that a lot of men haven't yet figured out they are actually holding all the cards, at least in this country (it took me a long time to realize this as well).  If you're a decent American guy, you have many, many options for fostering a quality relationship -- those "cluster B personality" chicks who are masters of the put-down really do not.  Pity is more appropriate than fear, here.

 

Can you elaborate on this please? I don't understand what the cluster personality is. Also, I don't understand how men are "holding all the cards." 

And yes, women are miserable now. In jobs they hate. In debt. Depressed. Seperated from their children. Lonely. Preyed upon by the vanity markets. 

 

Men certainly do have more of an opportunity to figure themselves out and become more valuable. Unfortunately for women, they are often stuck in a situation by the time they figure themselves out, if they ever do. This disparity is one of the things that really gets at women, even if they aren't consious of it, so they try to level the situation by putting men down.

http://imageshack.us/f/580/alphaversusbeta.gif/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/alphaversusbeta.gif/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/alphaversusbeta.gif/

[PatrickC]

It's shaming language that is the problem and this often applies to the term 'creepy'. the trouble with the term is that it doesnt really describe anything, not even a feeling. It's an observation that causes anxiety would be the best way to describe it.

Slut and whore which are often used as shaming terms for women are rightly considered unacceptable words to use publically. However, culturally when a woman accuses a guy of being a 'creep', she is much more likely to be believed and the term is considered inoffensive and so the 'mud sticks' so to speak.

I think we've all experienced being creeped out, insofar as we meet certain people that just dont meet our subjective or aesthetic needs. They might be a mixture of clumsy, foolish or nervous. We may not find them attractive or charasmatic and so dismiss them from our minds as unappealing. But if they are misreading our reaction and carry on persuing an interaction with us, we are likely to experience anxiety. If people and perhaps woman looked at it this way I think they might realise that there is nothing personal here. Your subjective preferences were just not being met and they misread you. A little embaressing for you both perhaps, but not one we can lable either with some tacit judgement of their reputation and character.

Of course creeps shouldnt be confused with people that are downright dangerous. People that use thrreats against us or others are quite different from those labled as creep.

[Lowe D]

 

 

 

My initial reaction to this is "who cares," but I guess it's also true that a lot of men haven't yet figured out they are actually holding all the cards, at least in this country (it took me a long time to realize this as well).  If you're a decent American guy, you have many, many options for fostering a quality relationship -- those "cluster B personality" chicks who are masters of the put-down really do not.  Pity is more appropriate than fear, here.

 

Can you elaborate on this please? I don't understand what the cluster personality is. Also, I don't understand how men are "holding all the cards." 

And yes, women are miserable now. In jobs they hate. In debt. Depressed. Seperated from their children. Lonely. Preyed upon by the vanity markets. 

 

Men certainly do have more of an opportunity to figure themselves out and become more valuable. Unfortunately for women, they are often stuck in a situation by the time they figure themselves out, if they ever do. This disparity is one of the things that really gets at women, even if they aren't consious of it, so they try to level the situation by putting men down.

I agree with this.  It's unfortunate that women's lives are so different from men's, in their trajectory.  By the time they're into their 30s and have figured out their lives, more or less, they're often married or with children, and even if not, they've lost much of whatever physical beauty they had.

I also agree that America has raised a generation of entitled and arrogant women.  This is a generalization, of course.  I have a difficulty setting aside the time, and making the effort to date, but when I do, I'm almost certain to get a reminder of how good this generalization is.

As for hate on Roosh's site, I think there is quite a bit of it, from the commenters, and some from him.  Hate isn't a vice, though.  I've read a many of his articles, and I think I understand how his feelings toward women developed over the years.  At one point he wrote of being hit as a child, by his mother, with a broom.  An episode which he retold laughingly, indicating either an inability or an unwillingness to empathize with himself.

Though I willl not go into detail, my history has similarities with Roosh's.  Unlike Roosh, I think, I have committed to self work and therapy.  As much as I would like to tell you that this has resulted in a realization that my negative, generalizing ideas about women were purely the result of my upbringing, this looks everyday to be less the case.  One can improve oneself as much as it pleases, and this is good, but one cannot change the state of others.

I think that one advantage for viewing women in the way Roosh does, in an unempathizing and judgmental way, is that allows oneself to detach from the experience of sadness for the state of women, and sadness for oneself, at having to live under such circumstances.  It may not be a path to personal enlightenment, but it is a rational strategy considering that sadness can be debilitating.

[PatrickC]

I think that one advantage for viewing women in the way Roosh does, in an unempathizing and judgmental way, is that allows oneself to detach from the experience of sadness for the state of women, and sadness for oneself, at having to live under such circumstances.  It may not be a path to personal enlightenment, but it is a rational strategy considering that sadness can be debilitating.

Interesting analysis Lowe. I think in war they might call this a 'flanking' strategy. Still fraught with danger and risk, but likely to bring about submission. I think many PUA's see their relationship with women as war like.

Anyway regarding the creep term, I listened to this rather interesting video recently that I thought might be useful for people.

[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaxKR4CAKf8]

[LovePrevails]

I've always had a problem with the word creepy

 

It's such a horrible thing to say about anyone, because it basically entails that they are not entitled to be a sexual person

that in any context where they feel attracted to someone they are commiting an assault on that person

and that therefore they are not entitled to romantic love or sex in any circumstances

because they are creepy

 

that's how I've always seen it used

it's usually lonely dudes who don't know how to approach a girl who get it and it's a shame for them, they're a product of their circumstances

[Metric]

 

 

My initial reaction to this is "who cares," but I guess it's also true that a lot of men haven't yet figured out they are actually holding all the cards, at least in this country (it took me a long time to realize this as well).  If you're a decent American guy, you have many, many options for fostering a quality relationship -- those "cluster B personality" chicks who are masters of the put-down really do not.  Pity is more appropriate than fear, here.

 

Can you elaborate on this please? I don't understand what the cluster personality is. Also, I don't understand how men are "holding all the cards." 

And yes, women are miserable now. In jobs they hate. In debt. Depressed. Seperated from their children. Lonely. Preyed upon by the vanity markets. 

 

"Cluster B" are a bunch of related personality disorders.  I think you'll understand my meaning immediately:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#Cluster_B_.28dramatic.2C_emotional_or_erratic_disorders.29

Anyway, in the world market, American men are highly desirable.  They make an effort to treat their women right, are typically highly educated, etc.  American women, however, have the reputation you know about -- and you're not the only one who knows about it.  Their market for men is very limited to American men who aren't aware of their options (and who are becoming less willing to marry them as time goes on).  As an example, try to imagine some Chinese guy putting up with the cluster B nonsense, and ask yourself how likely that is to happen.  On the flip side, Chinese women are often super-classy, fit, enlightened people without the chip on their shoulder.

BTW, I realize all this is generalizing horribly, and there are many exceptions on all sides.  But we're talking about reputation/perception, what it brings you in the relationship market, and why you can and should simply ignore the manipulative name-calling.

 

[masonman]

This is a fascinating discussion, a big part of my social anxiety comes from fears about being labeled as "creepy." I always feel pity for the guys who clearly have a lot of issues from their past that they haven't dealt with who are labeled creepy and then just kind of tossed aside.

Also Metric what you said about Chinese women may explain why now that I go to a school with a ton of Chinese people I kind of forgot American girls exist.

[Rick Horton]

This is a great conversation. I really find resonation with the point about shaming language. I'm not honestly coming out against the word, "creepy". On the other hand, it does get used far too often and with no regard to the emotional consequences that can, do, will follow. Word spreads fast and reputations can be destroyed by shaming language. It really hurts a lot of people a lot of times.

[empyblessing]

A woman who projects her own anxiety onto someone else via namecalling is not worth your time. 

[Stephen C]

The original creeper...

[kalmia]

 

This is a fascinating discussion, a big part of my social anxiety comes from fears about being labeled as "creepy." I always feel pity for the guys who clearly have a lot of issues from their past that they haven't dealt with who are labeled creepy and then just kind of tossed aside.

Also Metric what you said about Chinese women may explain why now that I go to a school with a ton of Chinese people I kind of forgot American girls exist.

 

I've had a lot of that fear myself and still do at times. I noticed a lot of my social anxiety escalating when others would be bothered by my social behavior. I didn't know what I was doing wrong, but I know I was getting lots of social disapproval. I was angered that people wouldn't explain what I was doing wrong. Words like "creepy" are a judgement that often has no clear definition putting the supposed offender in a paralyzed position. Social anxiety is a paralysis.  

Don't expect women (or men) to suddenly stop issuing these judgments. Confront them by asking for further explanation or dismiss the person.

[kalmia]

 

Some more from a relate site.

 

Why This Site Will Always Be “Creepy”

By Athlone McGinnis

We get a lot of hate from the fairer sex, particularly feminists. On the surface, this seems a little odd. After all, what exactly are we trying to do here?

We’re hoping to facilitate the improvement of men by giving them a forum to share and to acquire knowledge about how to improve themselves socially, economically, and romantically. We try to give men new ways to improve their style, their finances, their health, their physique and, above all, their ability to appeal to women.

Sounds great, no? We’re helping to create wealthier, healthier, better looking, more attractive men. Isn’t that what women want-more polished, appealing, high quality guys? Why, then, do so many women express a seemingly inherent and irrational hostility to many sites like this?

...

[Read the rest at the link below]

http://www.returnofkings.com/4853/why-this-site-will-always-be-creepy

 

[empyblessing]

 

 

 

://www.iraresoul.com/sex_essays.html
Being
in Love is a Disturbed Ideal

Although
society and most people – and of course popular music – hold
being “in love” as the ideal state of human existence, they are
all deluding themselves, literally.  Being in love is little
more than the state of transferring onto some new person – your
“love object” – all your repressed childhood hopes that your
parents will finally come to rescue you.  This hope, which is
the root of all addictions, is so intense that if you actually
believe that it can be fulfilled it sends you into the deepest
emotional orbit, more intense even than heroin.  No wonder most
people desperately strive for it.

You
might ask, though, what about the eighty year old married couples who
are still “in love” after fifty-five years of marriage?  My
reply:  What about mild addicts – functional alcoholics, let’s
say – who manage to stay pickled on their four daily martinis up
through ninety years old – and even credit their booze with keeping
them alive for so long?  (And they’re probably right – the
booze probably did prolong their “life,” if you could call that a
life.)

My
second reply:  Do those couples really love each other so much,
or are they more just attracted to a fantasy of whom their partners
are?  From what I’ve observed, when you scratch below the
surface of such couples you find that they really DON’T know each
other that well, and are just interacting – and being “in love”
– with a fraction of their personalities.  And they want it
that way!  If they knew each other too well it would shatter
their illusion.  No surprise that as the increase in expectation
of marriage partners being “best friends” – that is, more
emotionally intimate – has gone hand-in-hand with the skyrocketing
of the divorce rate.

As
I close, let me differentiate between being “in love” and
actually loving someone.  In many ways the two are polar
opposites, even if sometimes people who are “in love” can behave
lovingly toward one another.  Allow me to make a list:

1) Being
in love is projecting that someone will rescue you; loving someone is
nurturing and caring for the best in them

2) Being
in love comes from the false self, that still damaged side of us, and
wants a false image of another to rescue us; loving someone comes
from the true self, and nurtures the true self of another

3) Being
in love is generally full of disrhttpespect, both of one’s own and
another’s self.  It doesn’t honor the true boundaries of
another’s truth.  The extreme of this happens when really
troubled people fall in love with complete strangers and go so far as
to believe these strangers have returned this “love.” 
Loving someone, on the other hand, is inherently respectful.  It
respects the boundaries of who they really are.

4) Really
loving someone truly grows over time.  Being in love gets weaker
over time – and when it grows it tends to be a sign that the “in
love” person has a penchant for more extreme forms of
delusion.

5) Being
in love brings only a limited sense of fulfillment, and often leaves
people feeling crushed and rejected.  Really loving someone
brings deep fulfillment – to both involved.

6) Being
in love gets all mixed up with romance (and often sex).  Loving
someone deflates romance – and opens the door to something so much
more rewarding.

[empyblessing]

I'm going to come off sounding really stupid when I ask this but what is an alpha? Is this some scientific term or have a rational explanation? From my understanding it seems bogus and if Roosh is an example of an alpha than it seems like its a euphemism for a neglected and abused boy.

[masonman]

Well, I frequent a few sites that use the terms alpha and beta, and an alpha is essentially a very masculine male that shows a lot of fearlessness and is highly confident. An alpha is highly attractive to women. Some alphas are very nice people, some are not. The guys on Jersey Shore are all alphas essentially. However I think those are people who are "alpha by accident." That is, they are alpha but they act like that in every facet of their life, they are just kind of douchy and tend to get in fights a lot. The other kind of alpha usually is doing it by choice, and they tend to be nicer, but they are still very confident and masculine and all that.

I guess you could say an alpha is somebody who is confident and has a decent balance of tenderness and aggression; they aren't so nice and kind that they are perceived by others as weak and frail, but they also aren't so aggressive that they are perceived as abusive and violent and dangerous.

I've also seen the idea put out that a "true" alpha acts this way not strictly just to seek out women, but to improve himself as a person, to make himself more of what he is supposed to be: a man.

In this context its a highly subjective and unscientific term, but I'm just describing how it is commonly used in discussions.

[Lowe D]

I'm going to come off sounding really stupid when I ask this but what is an alpha? Is this some scientific term or have a rational explanation? From my understanding it seems bogus and if Roosh is an example of an alpha than it seems like its a euphemism for a neglected and abused boy.

Most boys are abused and neglected to a degree.  Maybe it was worse than ordinary for Roosh, though Idk.  It was certainly worse than ordinary for me, and maybe you can relate.

Masonkiller has already given you an idea of how many would define the term.  What I think the term is, though, is a kind of othering of the self.  E.g. who I am is not who I want to be, nor is it who others want me to be, and as I am now, I am not good enough.

Like much of pick up, self improvement, and culture in general, the term is about shame, and coping with shame.  Shame is a big deal for men.  I think, even bigger than for women, because fewer escape routes are available.

[kalmia]

 

I'm going to come off sounding really stupid when I ask this but what is an alpha? Is this some scientific term or have a rational explanation? From my understanding it seems bogus and if Roosh is an example of an alpha than it seems like its a euphemism for a neglected and abused boy.

 

I think alpha in its most simple definition is a leader. If people are following you, you are an alpha. People can follow you for good or bad reasons. Some alphas have people follow them out of fear while some provide value. 

It is a scientific term even if often abused. Study biology, particularly relations within a species of social animals, and you will see the alpha / beta relation at play. The alpha gets to breed with whomever he wants while a bottom level beta may assist in the alpha's sexual goals, but he will not breed at all. He is a dead end. If you look at any position in society that is male dominated, it is because it is a postion where males receive this alpha status by achieving it. Understand this, and the world makes A LOT more sense. I strongly encourage anyone who really wants to have more understanding of what is going on in society to study evolutionary psychology. 

[empyblessing]

 

 

I'm going to come off sounding really stupid when I ask this but what is an alpha? Is this some scientific term or have a rational explanation? From my understanding it seems bogus and if Roosh is an example of an alpha than it seems like its a euphemism for a neglected and abused boy.

 

I think alpha in its most simple definition is a leader. If people are following you, you are an alpha. People can follow you for good or bad reasons. Some alphas have people follow them out of fear while some provide value. 

It is a scientific term even if often abused. Study biology, particularly relations within a species of social animals, and you will see the alpha / beta relation at play. The alpha gets to breed with whomever he wants while a bottom level beta may assist in the alpha's sexual goals, but he will not breed at all. He is a dead end. If you look at any position in society that is male dominated, it is because it is a postion where males receive this alpha status by achieving it. Understand this, and the world makes A LOT more sense. I strongly encourage anyone who really wants to have more understanding of what is going on in society to study evolutionary psychology.

It just makes me want to kill myself. 

[Lowe D]

I think that it is an ugly fact of life, that in the absence of significant self knowledge, people are more or less subject to their traumas, usually making them the social equals of chimpanzees.  To paint this, as an inescapable aspect of our nature, is a mistake.

Most parents willingly put their children into a prison environment, for over a decade.  They praise the guards as paragons of virtue, and consider a child or adolescent dysfunctional if he or does not cope well with the horror and humiliation of what is being done to him.  Turns out, most of those who do not cope well are boys.  The amount of moral hypocrisy, victim-blaming, and vicious shaming, is unbelievable, and sickening to anyone with eyes to see it.  Frankly, the brunt of these attacks lands on the most upright, most naturally virtuous children.

This is how almost everybody grows up, and I think that understanding this context is important for maintaining one's self esteem, and mental well being, in any discussion of evo psych, or the the evo psych arguments put forward by pick up guys.

[nickhk]

I find Typhon Blue's stuff to be really enlightening on Male gender, and how Alpha-Beta works.  Apexual males.

Then, there's the Zeta.  Sort of an Objectivist male personality.  Blog post on aVoiceForMen.

Something I recorded earlier today, because I'm trying to figure out masculinity myself.  First Rule of being a man.  With that rule, creepy doesn't matter.

This is just a quick link dump for those of you interested in these things.  I think it will add information for you fine board members, and I hope this is helpful.

[AudreyM]

I have used the word creep before, both in jest and in seriousness, but haven't given it consideration till now. When I used it seriously it was in response to someones behavior that I saw as inappropriate, and calling them a creep was more of an attempt to push them away rather than put them down. However I regret using it and in the future will instead openly express my feelings of discomfort and request that the person no longer interact with me. Also I have heard this term be applied to women as well as men, though definitely not as frequently.

[Anjin-san]

I have used the word creep before, both in jest and in seriousness, but haven't given it consideration till now. When I used it seriously it was in response to someones behavior that I saw as inappropriate, and calling them a creep was more of an attempt to push them away rather than put them down. However I regret using it and in the future will instead openly express my feelings of discomfort and request that the person no longer interact with me. Also I have heard this term be applied to women as well as men, though definitely not as frequently.

 

Calling someone a "creep," as a noun, is quite different from calling them "creepy."  I've always thought of "creep" as being synonymous with "asshole."  Someone who's "creepy," however, is one you get a very bad feeling from, and would never leave alone with children, or wouldn't want to be alone with as a woman.  I think you were using "creep" correctly, which is a much less personal or damning word.

[Holo Cene]

A creepy person is someone who has very little emotional control. They exhibit behaviors motivated by emotion rather than thought. This leads women to view them as unstable and allows women to label an emotional response to an unattractive man, but also a potentially dangerous man. It is just a mental shortcut that allows women to quickly judge their safety in certain situations. You have to remember women are physically weaker than men. Imaging if you were sexually attracted to a woman who was taller than you and stronger than you. Kind of changes the dynamic don't it? A woman who does not have the capacity to rightfully judge a man would be quickly weeded out of the gene pool.

[Billy]

an Alpha is a social construct, its basically the most desirable male in any given group. All men try to be the alpha, except for the beta males who tend to recognize their place, and pursue other interests.

[marius]

The book Gift of fear' comes to mind. Written by a violence expert activating in the marketplace, abuse in childhood started him on the road.

[Kawlinz]

yeah it depends on how it's used. I think there are genuinely creepy people out there, and in my experience they tend to be guys. If calling them creepy stops them from hitting on you inappropriately, I think it's a good use of the word.