Primal Desire Versus Rational Love - Dr. Warren Farrell Interviewed on Freedomain Radio

[Stefan Molyneux]

 

[*]From http://sacha.ca/fact-sheets/statistics

• 51% of Canadian women report having experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of sixteen.
  
• Almost 60% of these women were the targets of more than one such incident.(Statistics Canada, The Daily. (Ottawa: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, November 18, 1993.))
  
•  It is estimated that one in ten adult men have been sexually assaulted, the majority of perpetrators being heterosexual men. (Isely & Hehrenbech-Shim, 1997; Scarce, 1997.)
  

Do you think that it's fair to compare physical and sexual violence for women with just sexual assault for men?

Also, since most adult men are much stronger and bigger than women, is it fair to compare adult male sexual victimization? It would be more fair to compare male childhood victimization, when they are small and relatively helpless.

[ianlippert1]

I wasn't commenting on Kevin's video for the sake of comparison, I was simply critiquing the lady's citation of studies that claimed female violence was greater than males. The study she cited, breaks the 5 and 9% totals into physical force, exploitation of an incapacitate state and verbal Abuse, the other variables are split between type of sexual assault and relationship to victim.

as for comparing to small children, I would again argue that to reduce abuse it's important to focus on the motivation of the abuser as the goal is not to determine if men or women are more abused but to determine strategies to reduce all abuse. If men abuse and harass women because of their views on gender then a campaign of education could produce great results. Creating a site like avoiceformen.com polarizes the issue and could create more militant feminists while it reinforces mysoginist views. I think it's better to promote positive sites like the good men project that could lead to win win solutions.

for abusers of male children I am not sure what it would take to reduce that, but it would probably require more therapeutic solutions or physical removal of the abuser. People that sexually abuse children are probably further beyond help than the average male harasser of females.

[Kevin Beal]

 

I wasn't commenting on Kevin's video for the sake of comparison, I was simply critiquing the lady's citation of studies that claimed female violence was greater than males

 

Whatever the intention, it is a comparison, one of several you've made so far. And you keep saying that it's not the point, but keep bringing up more comparisons. [:S]

 

People that sexually abuse children are probably further beyond help than the average male harasser of females.

 

Probably? [+o(]

The video with Dr Farrell is about boys and men, why are we even talking about women? That is another reason I thought your posts were about comparing men's and women's issues. Your very first post in this thread has at least one objection based on a comparison between men and women's lived experiences used as a crticism of the video.

[ianlippert1]

 

 

I wasn't commenting on Kevin's video for the sake of comparison, I was simply critiquing the lady's citation of studies that claimed female violence was greater than males

 

Whatever the intention, it is a comparison, one of several you've made so far. And you keep saying that it's not the point, but keep bringing up more comparisons. /emoticons/emotion-7.gif

 

People that sexually abuse children are probably further beyond help than the average male harasser of females.

 

Probably? /emoticons/emotion-41.gif

The video with Dr Farrell is about boys and men, why are we even talking about women? That is another reason I thought your posts were about comparing men's and women's issues. Your very first post in this thread has at least one objection based on a comparison between men and women's lived experiences used as a crticism of the video.

 

yes I have made comparisons between men and women, but you posted the video with a link to a study so I don't see how that's a comparison I made, I was simply commenting on the video you posted.

I have made my point several times in regards to male/female abuse. Male on female abuse is due in many cases to the views males have of the roles of females and their relationship towards them. The greater prevalence of male on female violence explains why it is more prominent in discussions of gender relations. Instead of viewing this as an attack by the feminist movement the MRM would likely achieve greater inroads to men's rights if they acknowledged the views of feminists as legitimate and promoted men's responsibilities towards women as much as men's rights. Bringing young boys into the male sample only confuses the issue as it removes the variable of abuser motivation which makes it more difficult to determine the appropriate strategies for reducing individual cases of abuse.

Why am I randomly disussing this? The first reason was because when I looked into dr warren farell I found the above quote. Now either it's out of context, he's since retracted that statement, or the statement is not a support of rape culture. No one has addressed that point. Second, a voice for men is an anti-feminist site and shares little in common with a positive men's rights site like the good men project. These are the only men's rights podcasts of stefs that I know of and it seems like a recent trend that could possibly lead FDR to take on the horrible image problems the MRM is currently having. While I agree it's not all justified its pretty easy to understand the view when you consider how much blatant misogyny is attracted to the movement.

i hope this clarifys our discussion.

 

 

[Stefan Molyneux]

Ian, you only think that female violence is less than males because you forget the children. Two thirds of mothers acknowledge hitting children who are under six 3 or more times per week.

[ianlippert1]

I don't forget the children, I think it's a separate issue. Maybe I am not understanding your purpose in collapsing the sample around all abuse. To me it seems like its an effort to minimize male on female abuse but I would be open to a clarification because that view may just be due to my biases. 

To me abuse of children seems to be gender neutral and not due any parents particular view of gender roles. With the majority of parenting falling on females maybe this is an issue that feminists should take up. I am not sure what the feminists views of this are which is why I think it would be interesting if you had some feminist guests on. I will ask my feminist friend to see if she knows much about the feminist views on this issue. But considering that she was aware of female on male violence I don't see the issue of child abuse as on where the feminists are not knowledgable. 

[PatrickC]

or the statement is not a support of rape culture.

Do you think Warren is a supporter of rape culture? And if so, where is the evidence beyond one interview written over 30 years ago.

Second, a voice for men is an anti-feminist site and shares little in common with a positive men's rights site like the good men project. These are the only men's rights podcasts of stefs that I know of and it seems like a recent trend that could possibly lead FDR to take on the horrible image problems the MRM is currently having. While I agree it's not all justified its pretty easy to understand the view when you consider how much blatant misogyny is attracted to the movement.

Ian do you have any links to the Good Men Project at all, I'm very curious. I would agree that AVfM is anti-feminist, but I don't necessarily see a problem with that. Feminism is an ideology after all and so it can be criticised objectively.

As to claims of misogyny over there, I have yet to see any from the numerous writers they use. I'd be happy for you to correct me and show me evidence of such behaviour. Of course it's readers may share all kinds of unreasonable views about women. I would say this is also true of readers of most feminist groups on the internet. AVfM is very clear mind that it will ban anyone that advocates violence or threats of violence against anyone from its boards.

I will agree that where the MRM fail is in its adoption of a single issue based upon a class of people (in this case men). But this is equally true of feminism as well. But given the political, financial and social ramifications that many men face at the hand of laws inspired from feminist thinking not that much of a surprise that the MRM exist. Personally I don't advocate violence or threats of against anyone and making class distinctions are not very helpful, particularly when other classes are entirely ignored, such as children. This is true of both sides I think with the exception that they will both genderize the children into boys and girls. Personally I have found the MRA's to be more empathic with children, but I will concede that this could be confirmation bias on my part, because I have struggled to really take many feminists seriously of late. However, if you know some great feminist thinkers that you would consider worth a read or listen to then let me know.

[ianlippert1]

My Farrell quote is from the politics of rape chapter in his book the myth of male power which I initially found here 

for an example of a men's rights group posting healthy articles about the mans responsibility in communicating his desired see this 

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/a-letter-to-my-son-about-consent/

I am completely open to being corrected about the accuracy of the dr warren Farrell quote, as I stated above there are several possibilities that would make it an out of context quote. As I don't have access to the book it's difficult to go on anything other than what I can find on the Internet. 

[ianlippert1]

As for AVfM, regardless of your views of their anti-feminism titles like this 

avoiceformen.com/feminism/

donglegate-ii-judgybitch-judges-judge-mental-bitch/

do them and their movement no favours

(sorry, my iPhone can't display the link properly for some reason.

The article is on their frot page though)

[Stefan Molyneux]

 

I don't forget the children, I think it's a separate issue. Maybe I am not understanding your purpose in collapsing the sample around all abuse. To me it seems like its an effort to minimize male on female abuse but I would be open to a clarification because that view may just be due to my biases. 

To me abuse of children seems to be gender neutral and not due any parents particular view of gender roles. With the majority of parenting falling on females maybe this is an issue that feminists should take up. I am not sure what the feminists views of this are which is why I think it would be interesting if you had some feminist guests on. I will ask my feminist friend to see if she knows much about the feminist views on this issue. But considering that she was aware of female on male violence I don't see the issue of child abuse as on where the feminists are not knowledgable. 

 

The reason I don't think it's a separate issue is that feminism focuses on the abuse that arises from power disparities in relationships. Most people who take care of children are women, and the caretaker/child relationship has the greatest power disparity, and tends therefore to have the greatest levels of abuse, the majority of which are perpetrated by women.

It's also I think impossible to look at male violence towards and hatred of women without asking where it comes from. If a lot of men are viciously treated by women as children, then it would go some way towards explaining (though of course not justifying) the cycle of violence.

The feminist answer to male aggression towards women is 'patriarchy' (which is kind of like saying about 9/11 "they hate us for our freedoms" rather than looking into the history of US government violence overseas) - I think the statistical and factual answer is more complex, with fewer innocent parties.

However, I'm certainly willing to be entirely schooled on the subject - if there is a significant and popular feminist tradition of talking about and repudiating women's aggression towards children, I would be perfectly thrilled to help publicize it, and very happy to withdraw my theories. Please let me know

[PatrickC]

Thanks for the links.

As for AVfM, regardless of your views of their anti-feminism titles like this 

avoiceformen.com/feminism/

donglegate-ii-judgybitch-judges-judge-mental-bitch/

do them and their movement no favours

(sorry, my iPhone can't display the link properly for some reason.

The article is on their frot page though)

I read the article.. It was interesting since I rarelty listen to the Amazing Athiest much these days, but I happened upon a video he did on the very same incidence only last night.

I saw it as rather caustic and sardonic for sure, but rather tongue in cheek all the same. I'm careful not to allow myself to get drawn into these public spats, because all too often misinformation occurs. It's a pretty sorry conclusion for both the guy who got fired and for Adria in the end.

I was curious though, what were your thoughts about the article yourself? Was it the overall genesis of the piece that bothered you or the way the author characterised Adria. Or something else perhaps?

[ianlippert1]

Stef, I do agree that men's anger towards women could likely come from their relationship with their mothers. I also agree that the patriarchy seems like a feminist bogeyman that I don't necessarily agree with. You make some good points that I am taking into consideration. This is something that I have started looking into only for the past few days since listening to your podcasts and research is time consuming and often locked behind the university pay wall. I will email you the journal article my friend sent me and I will try and get further information on feminists views of child abuse. 

[ianlippert1]

 

Thanks for the links.

As for AVfM, regardless of your views of their anti-feminism titles like this 

avoiceformen.com/feminism/

donglegate-ii-judgybitch-judges-judge-mental-bitch/

do them and their movement no favours

(sorry, my iPhone can't display the link properly for some reason.

The article is on their frot page though)

I read the article.. It was interesting since I rarelty listen to the Amazing Athiest much these days, but I happened upon a video he did on the very same incidence only last night.

I saw it as rather caustic and sardonic for sure, but rather tongue in cheek all the same. I'm careful not to allow myself to get drawn into these public spats, because all too often misinformation occurs. It's a pretty sorry conclusion for both the guy who got fired and for Adria in the end.

I was curious though, what were your thoughts about the article yourself? Was it the overall genesis of the piece that bothered you or the way the author characterised Adria. Or something else perhaps?

 

i just think that a site dealing with such a caustic issue should publish articles with a certain level of journalistic professionalism if it wants to prevent misunderstandings from the people it is criticizing. This is a good strategy if they want the site to be a positive force in reconciliation of conflicts between men and women. As it stands it seems like they have no problems being a site that attracts angry men of the type that would characterize adria as a "bitch". 

As for the issue of the firings I think it's pretty sad for both sides. While the guy was acting unprofessionally and Adria was being creepy neither of them deserved to lose their jobs. Part of the reason to work together on these issues is to have visible and available methods of conflict resolution that are fair to all parties and can avoid outcomes like what happened. I feel like this would be a good line of support for the MRM instead of stoking the fires and creating more conflict. 

[Kevin Beal]

I checked out the Good Men Project and the article "Letter to My Son About Consent". The reason I don't like sites like this are articles that equate to "remember not to rape women!"

I just found the site, but just browsing it seems like there is a lot of this "you need to treat women better guys!" thing that really annoys me.

I realize there are a lot of different writers talking about very different things, probably some really great stuff, but no thanks.

 

Article:

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/a-letter-to-my-son-about-consent/

[PatrickC]

I will concede that that I'm not altogether keen on Judgybitchs style or content and I rather agree that these situations are done more out of spite than anything of real value or mutual understanding. I think Adria as well as Judgybitch are probably guilty of that. From the little I know Judgybitch is one of several women that have been making YT videos in favour of mens rights. Judgybitch has been the most controversial making videos that generally mock feminists. It's kind of written into her name what she does of course. So I do think it's meant to be taken as a parody of a certain type of feminist.

[Kevin Beal]

. As it stands it seems like they have no problems being a site that attracts angry men of the type that would characterize adria as a "bitch". 

 

She tried to publicly humiliate and shame someone for making a penis pun. 

[PatrickC]

 

. As it stands it seems like they have no problems being a site that attracts angry men of the type that would characterize adria as a "bitch". 

 

She tried to publicly humiliate and shame someone for making a penis pun. 

 

Yes I'm still at a loss as to why this chap lost his job over a private joke.. I now hear that apparently it was only she that construed it as sexual and not the chap who uttered it.. As someone mentioned to me, compared to Sharon Osbournes pleasure at a penis being cut off, this joke is small fry by comparison.

[LovePrevails]

I've really enjoyed all the shows with Warren Farrell on them, here is a youtube I just did on a related topic

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z4poAoTbMo