Socrates

[Wayne]

I am a big fan of Socrates. The way hewas steadfast in his search for truth is inspirational. However, Ihave recently had a few questions about Socrates and I thought thatthis would be the appropriate place to ask.

1: When Socrates was questioningEuthyphro about piety. Euthyphro's first response seem to me to bethe correct one. Eurthyphro says that piety is the action that he isperforming. By taking his father to court for killing a slave.(Euthyphro's father killed the slave by tying him up and putting himin a ditch; the slave died before the father could get back to him.)Socrates rejects this because Euthyphro gave Socrates a example ofpiety instead of a definition. I think Euthyphro did know what pietyis, he only lacked the linguistic ability to give Socrates theWebsters dictionary definition of piety; does not actions speaklouder than words? By Euthyphro performing a pious act andunderstanding that the act that his is performing is pious, it seemsto me, that Euthyphro does in fact know what piety is; he justcouldn't put it into words.

2: While Socrates was in jail he wasgiven the opportunity to escape; but refuses to. All the reasonsSocrates gave to Crito are good ones. However, is it not better tolive to fight another day than die a martyr for a cause?

I do not want to sound like I'm beingdisrespectful toward Socrates. I hold Socrates in the highestregards. He is the reason I started to get interested in philosophyin the first place. I really have gotten into reading about Socrateslately and your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Wayne

[Wesley]

 

 

I am a big fan of Socrates. The way he
was steadfast in his search for truth is inspirational. However, I
have recently had a few questions about Socrates and I thought that
this would be the appropriate place to ask.

1: When Socrates was questioning
Euthyphro about piety. Euthyphro's first response seem to me to be
the correct one. Eurthyphro says that piety is the action that he is
performing. By taking his father to court for killing a slave.(
Euthyphro's father killed the slave by tying him up and putting him
in a ditch; the slave died before the father could get back to him.)
Socrates rejects this because Euthyphro gave Socrates a example of
piety instead of a definition. I think Euthyphro did know what piety
is, he only lacked the linguistic ability to give Socrates the
Websters dictionary definition of piety; does not actions speak
louder than words? By Euthyphro performing a pious act and
understanding that the act that his is performing is pious, it seems
to me, that Euthyphro does in fact know what piety is; he just
couldn't put it into words.

2: While Socrates was in jail he was
given the opportunity to escape; but refuses to. All the reasons
Socrates gave to Crito are good ones. However, is it not better to
live to fight another day than die a martyr for a cause?

I do not want to sound like I'm being
disrespectful toward Socrates. I hold Socrates in the highest
regards. He is the reason I started to get interested in philosophy
in the first place. I really have gotten into reading about Socrates
lately and your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Wayne

 

 

I do not necessarily have the most experience or knowledge to be able to answer this, but I will put my thoughts down and hopefully something coherent and useful will come out of it.

1. With this I think of UPB as what stef says often. When you want to analyze a moral idea you want it to be in the form of a universal statement. Killing is wrong/evil is analyzeable as a proper theory. Steve kills Dave isn't necessarily as the individual examples can bog people down in details and issues that have little or no relevance to the actual analyzed premise. I think Euthypro was more burdened by ignorance of logic than ignorance of rhetoric.

 

2. You are placing your own values on to Socrates. Martyrdom can create amazing social and political action as people are far more shocked into change by death than by the logic of an argument. Just look at Jesus, Martin Luther King, Jr, or even 9/11. Shocking death can create dramatic change in a certain direction. Socrates may have wished that this change could be made. He may have stood up for his principles to the point of not wanting to run away from them. Maybe he was old and travel and hiding for the rest of his life just wan't worth it. Maybe he truly believed that Democracy was just because he hadn't successfully analyzed it. Maybe the world was just so far gone that "suicide" was the best option in his mind. There are many possibilities as to why staying and being killed would be preferable to leaving. It is nearly impossible to know his motivations.

[Wayne]

You make a good point. Socrates waspretty old at the time and running to a different polis might not ofsounded like such a good idea. I did not take into account the effectthat martyrdom can have. Perhaps if he had chose to live, his liveand work would not have the impact it has had. Socrates did haveyoung children at the time, so I find in hard to believe thatdrinking the hemlock instead of escaping was the right thing to do.But like you said that might be my own values.

Thank you for the response. It wasreally helpful and has given me something think about.  

[kospe]

Before I directly respond, you may find it interesting to note that most scholars believe Plato wrote these dialogues and their not necessarily the views of Socrates, although no one knows for sure. Of course you may know that already this, I just thought it was worth noting anyway.

I'm happy you brought up these two dialogues because I happened to have read them a few weeks ago, what perfect timing!

1. Since you brought up the dictionary, I went ahead and looked it up and found there were essentially two different definitions, first respecting and honoring God, the second having honor or respect for your parents, country, laws etc. Both these definitions fit what Euthyphro is getting at. To the first, he clearing has piety towards God because he's willing to prosecute his own father. And the second, he plainly has preference for the laws of his country over anything else.

More should be said on this second definition. It's typical in democracies and republics for the people to love their country and its laws. This is the reason the Roman republic lasted so long, it was only after the people became too worried with their own self-interest that it fell into an empire. There are other examples, and Charles Montesquieu makes this point loud and clear in his Spirit of the Laws. My point is that you’re absolutely right, Euthyphro hit the nail and the head, Socrates (or Plato) just didn't see it.

2. As I recall (although I don't remember for sure), there were two reasons why Socrates refused to go. One was the martyrdom argument which Snipes already addressed. The second argument was basically the social contract theory which I don't agree with. If you're not already familiar with the arguments against it, rather than reinvent the wheel, I'll point you to a great little book called No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority by Lysander Spooner where he argues that the US Constitution doesn't set up a social contract with the citizens.

I hope I answered your questions and gave you something to think about!

[Wayne]

 

Its funny I've only ever used the
dictionary part of my first argument as an illustration, I never
thought of actually looking it up. Having the definition makes the
argument stronger. I don't know too much about the social contract
theory. I asked some of my friends and it really sparked a lively
(and bit heated) debate. I found a copy of that book you recommended
No
Treason: The Constitution of No Authority by
Lysander Spooner. So I'm going to check it out. Thank you for the
great input. And yes I absolutely have more to think about!

 

[HollywoodSimon]

2: While Socrates was in jail he was

given the opportunity to escape; but refuses to. All the reasons

Socrates gave to Crito are good ones. However, is it not better to

live to fight another day than die a martyr for a cause?

The subject of martyrdom did not appear in the Crito, unless in some allegorical fashion I missed. Indeed, Socrates does not argue from effect except when he voices the imagined arguments of the laws. Early on, he and Crito agree that Socrates should choose the just action, to act with integrity to his principles. They conduct the rest of the conversation to reveal what constitutes the just action.

 

I think that, at a number of points, Crito could have pushed back with effect, but perhaps not without challenging principles which he and Socrates had accepted long before the trial.

[Pepin]

I recommend watching Stefan's series on The Trial and Death of Socrates, particularly the conclusions. Keep in mind that human psychology unfortunately applies to Socrates, especially given all of the circumstances.

[HollywoodSimon]

Corrections to my earlier post:

By "martyrdom" I meant advancing a cause through martyrdom, which doesn't come up in the dialog. Since Socrates claims guidance from his invisible friend, the discussion in the Crito amounts to whether or not Socrates will become a martyr.

Socrates does argue from effect in that he means to improve the part of him that minds justice by choosing the just action.

[Shagrath]

I think the reason that Socrates stated for serving his sentence was that he believed in the social contract. That is where he was dead wrong. Socrates was an amazing mind, but if he truly believed in a social contract, he proves that he was only human. Maybe that was his final lesson to the world? It sure did stick.