MysterionMuffles Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 All my life, my parents would hype up church as the ultimate family activity because it will teach us to be better people. Even though of course I could never stand a single droned out word dripping out of the priest's mouth. Every Sunday my brother and I would be rushed to get dressed, be good and go to church, and at some point, we always had to have the same argument: isn't God supposed to accept us as we are? Why are we trying to impress him with fancy clothes? Didn't the people Jesus interact with dress in tattered garb? (Obviously as a kid, my vocabulary wasn't that awesome, but that was the basis of what I would talk about) This carried on for a while and our interest in church began to decline further and further as we got older. There was no one influencing us, and even though he and I didn't communicate as much yet as kids, we both began to question religiousity and distance ourselves from the imaginary obligation to have to pray and go to church. Maybe having to pray the rosary every night during Easter time would be a pointless endeavour to adhere to "a family that prays together stays together." Meanwhile throughout the day we would all barely say a meaningful word to each other, and apparently chanting these repetitive prayers in unison was supposed to make us a better family? Even as a kid I knew it was fundamentally wrong to believe in the fantasy that we would magically become a good family just because of religious events we were forced to go together. Even at home. Our parents would concern us over why we weren't willing to go to church as much anymore or why we make a big fuss out of doing the rosary. I would rebuke with, "instead of going to church, why can't we just...talk?" Plain and simple as that was, it became the prominent concern in my heart for years to come. I always did wonder why we couldn't just sit down and have good family talks and bond realistically, instead of hoping that unified chanting would do the trick. Anyways, long story short, one Sunday, my brother and I were playing Mario Kart 64 which we rented from Blockbuster. As usual, we were being hassled to get into our Sunday best, but no, WE WANTED TO FINISH THE DAMN RACE FIRST. So much like any family situation where kids are being herded around, my mom would quickly and quietly (at first) yell at us to get ready. We would whine, "wait, we're almost finished," in that childish tone we all know and love. I think we kept starting new races to put it off some more until the yelling escalated in volume and in quantity of words, threatening us about the possibility of Hell and our souls not being saved or some other religious jargon. Our eyes were glued to the screen because it was a close race, but then my mom ripped the cartridge out of the N64, threw it against the wall and yelled at us to "get ready, we're going to be late! God doesn't like that!" Whether we went to church or even received a beating for this, I cannot remember. All I remember is this isolated moment where all at once, I wondered my parents' sense of morality. They tell us to respect other people's property, but there was my mom almost destroying something we RENTED from a video store. They tell us that going to church will make us better people, yet we were being berated to go in such a way that is just...wow! My mind is full of fuck from just thinking about it. If they were so righteous, wouldn't they have persuaded us to go in a much more reasonable way? Couldn't my mom or dad easily say, "it's time to go, but when we get back you can play as long as you want." Hell even bribe us with a McDonald's treat or something afterwards, which used to be our little family ritual almost every Sunday prior to that. It was that morning where my faith began to decline...the other moment that sealed my fate as an Athiest came years later. When I was in grade 9, I was involved in a petty love triangle drama where my friend and I had a fist fight over a girl. Their relationship was going downhill because my friend wasn't ready or even interested in being with a girl just yet (and to my dismay, other friends and I had to help him overcome his fear of the cooties and hook up with her in the first place). The first time I met her, my job was to boost my friend, but our conversation got derailed and she happened to admit that she became attracted to me now. And instead of being a real man, I thought the virtuous thing to do was stay on course with helping my reluctant friend score a girlfriend when he didn't even want to. They hooked up all thanks to me being far too much of a White Knight than I can tolerate, but always in the background, her and I always seemed to be a better fit as we were more sexually ready than my friend ever was at that time. But whatever, they continued on with their relationship and in the background I would be her shoulder to cry on. (Ugh I know how immature and ridiculous this is sounding, so trust me when I say I know a hell lot better now) Eventually she started cheating on him with me, he found out, and thus came the fist fight that would end their relationship, and weeks later her and I just had a one time fling...the reward for all this needless drama was just that: needless. My faith in religion had been wavering for past few years, but I decided to go to confession for only the second time in my life since the first forced one when I was younger. At which point of course, I wondered why the fuck they were teaching kids to doubt themselves and view themselves as "sinful" even though we've been barely taught correctly the difference between wrong and right by our peers, teachers, parents and parishoners. When I went into that confession booth, I was expecting a heartful and helpful conversation with a trusted "leader" in morality and whatnot, but no. None of that would come to pass. I confessed with every ounce of my being that I had betrayed a friend and treated a girl as an object of lust, which was still wrong even though she was putting her self out there as one. And what did the priest tell me to do to get God's forgiveness? 1 Our Father 3 Hail Mary's and 1 Glory be to the FUCKING Father I just knew didn't exist anymore. It didn't make me feel any better and it didn't correct the situation. It wasn't until years later when I made my peace with my friend and that girl did I ever rid myself of the guilt I harbored for what I've done.
MysterionMuffles Posted March 17, 2013 Author Posted March 17, 2013 Shallow and unfulfilling. Surface connectivity is alright, but when it comes to deeper things, they're just judgemental and close minded.
Magenta Posted March 24, 2013 Posted March 24, 2013 What parts do you find fortunate and what parts do you find unfortunate?
MysterionMuffles Posted March 27, 2013 Author Posted March 27, 2013 I find it fortunate that I am financially supported. I get some home cooked meals, some of which I'm learning to make my self, access to a free car to go about as I like. What I find unfortunate is the lack of genuine connectivity from my parents with me and my siblings. To be fair they have their moments, but it's usually in casual stuff. Kind of wish we could run deeper and talk about more important stuff.
Guest NateC Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 I no longer live with my religious parents, but I'm going through a similar process. Like you, I want that deeper connection. With the help of my therapist, I wrote a letter to Mom and Dad, a complete outpouring of honesty. Believe me, it wasn't easy to send after my mother broke down and cried when I tried to read the letter over the phone. I risk ending our relationship completely.
MysterionMuffles Posted March 27, 2013 Author Posted March 27, 2013 what was it about the content of your letter that made her break down?
Guest NateC Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 Didn't even get to the content...just mentioning I was working on a letter which contained honest feelings about my childhood. I think my Mom and Dad are so invested in being labeled as good Christian parents that they see my honesty as an attack and would rather ignore my true self than accept feedback and reveal any illusion.
MysterionMuffles Posted March 28, 2013 Author Posted March 28, 2013 Oh I see...that's the fundamental flaw with some parents. They can't even muster the courage or common decency to listen to reason and honesty. I just had a discussion with my parents today and I told them about present day things they do that piss me off and WHY these things piss me off. Without getting too detailed about the content of it, basically my mom at first dismissed my personal experienced as probably my imagination, but as I continued to run my mouth (as I tend to do in heated family arguments), she came to acknowledge what childhood wounds I had. But the way she avoided eye contact and the dismissive "yeah yeah yeah" I got it is just fucking frustrating. My mind is so warped right now from the continuing lack of empathy it's not only mind boggling, but heartbreaking too. And when I had this discussion with them, I made sure to take in consideration how they would feel and how they initially feel, and never once tried to play the blame game. I said you did this when I was a kid, I internalized it and thus I held resentment. That's my fault to take it personally. At least my mom felt guilty enough to say "no it's mine"...probably for the sake of shutting me up. She would have had more credibility in my eyes if she would go on to explain herself, but nope, just the dismissive saying what I want to hear kind of thing. It's too bad that's not what I want to hear. In fact what I want to hear is genuine acknowledgement of what I was saying and what I was feeling, but never once did I feel that. MAYBE from my dad which is surprising, since it's my mom who I usually get to talk about personal stuff with, but even he got irritated enough to just say "eat your food it's getting cold." Maybe I am being a pessimist, but I really can't shake the feeling that they just don't care and would much rather avoid it all together. I can't think straight right now, I just can't. And I want to refrain from revealing all the intricate details and triggers. All I want to say is, I gave it a shot and even told them I bring this shit up because I care about the family. I want us to have real conversations and be honest about our feelings. BUT NOPE, even then I gotta get ignored. If it isn't in the realm of day to day hogwash, and it is too important of a topic, then I gotta get ignored and dismissed. Let's stick to criticizing the rest of our family or talking about mundane things like the weather. I have no love left for my parents if they can't even acknowledge that I want to have open discussions so that we know how the other feels. If they can honestly say they spanked out of love, then do I not have the right to say I bring up the past out of love so that they know what affect they had on me? NOTE that I didn't say what they DID to me as some kind of victim, just talking about it objectively, this is the effect it had on me. Ughhh...I'm gonna appreciate all the financial support I'm getting and the home I get to stay in, but once I'm financially independant, I can't wait to defoo. Until then I'll keep treading the waters of honesty with them to see if they could ever open up.
Guest NateC Posted March 28, 2013 Posted March 28, 2013 I feel ya man. Sounds like it's gonna take time, one way or the other. Hopefully that genuine connection is at the end of the road. Don't know if you have the money, but my therapist has been a great resource and has really helped coach me through these changes in my life.
MysterionMuffles Posted March 28, 2013 Author Posted March 28, 2013 Nope I don't and I'm glad that you have the resources to get therapy yourself. If anything, if my parents are too stuck up to really talk to me, I would tell them to pay for all my therapy now that I'm ready for it. When I was a troubled teen I went to a few therapists and disliked them all. There was one who seemed alright, but one day I was beyond saving for a while so I kinda brushed him off. I was thinking why are my parents wasting money on something they should be doing for me in the first place? Now I realize it's probably for the best to unload my traumas to someone who won't interrupt me or dismiss my experiences. BUT it's all good man ya know? As I always say, a $20 journal could save you thousands on therapy and I'm doing alright with just a pen, paper and my thoughts.
Guest NateC Posted March 29, 2013 Posted March 29, 2013 Totally. Ten years ago I would have said, "Journaling? Gay!" But I don't say that anymore.
MysterionMuffles Posted March 29, 2013 Author Posted March 29, 2013 Lol I think the common misconception that journalling requires it to be a diary plastered with plastic pink gem stones where you just write about the boys you like.
Guest NateC Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 So my parents live six hours away. I was planning to stop by on my way out west in three weeks, but now they want to meet me halfway for dinner this weekend. "It's a trap!" "No! It's love! Relax, come with us!" "Live free!" "Be reasonable, accept the middle ground."
MysterionMuffles Posted April 22, 2013 Author Posted April 22, 2013 Little update: I came out of the closet to my mom. About being an Atheist that is, since it's like the new gay. What an interesting conversation that was...
Guest NateC Posted April 22, 2013 Posted April 22, 2013 I admire your courage. How'd it go? RTR'ed with my Mom on the phone tonight. What an emotional rollercoaster that was. So hard to keep to feelings when blasted with conclusions and mythologies.
MysterionMuffles Posted April 23, 2013 Author Posted April 23, 2013 I've been reading the Bible and she asked how it's been going, so I told her the truth. I was disgusted by it so far and how much killing and lying God has done halfway through Genesis. She would go on to say that the New Testament he's a better God, "but the fact remains mom, he did commit a lot of atrocities! It's inconsistent." Her: If God doesn't exist, who made all this? (motions to the space around us) Me: Mm...construction workers? Just kidding, but let's say God DOES exist, then he's EVIL!!! Her: If you don't believe in God, then what do you believe in now? Me: Reality. If he's all powerful, then why does he ,et people act badly? Her: He gave you free will, you have your own mind. Me: Yeah but why doesn't he do anything about all the bad shit happening in the world? Why doesn't he intervene anymore? Her: He's not supposed to babysit all of us, there's too many of us. Me: Still. If we're made in his image, and we have the capacity for evil, then so does he. If he's real where the hell is he? Her: *Points up* Me: You really believe that still? We've been on an airplane before, there was nothing but clouds! And anyone who's gone further only sees space! ---Yeah I'm probably making her sound more stupid than she actually was about it. If I could rewrite this without bias, it would still be just as retarded anyway. Let's fast forward to the end shall we?--- Me: I have one question that really splits into two. How do you FEEL about me TELLING you that I'm Atheist? And how do you feel about me BEING Atheist? Her: Well...as long as you don't anger God. So stop posting bad stuff about the Bible on Facebook. NON...ANSWER!!! Anyways yeah that's how that kind of went. Fortunately we haven't argued since, we still get along great as she's helping me learn how to prepare meals and whatnot. I think I have a great relationship with her, but when religion is thrown into the mix, things get confusing and stupid because religion is confusing and stupid. So how did your RTR go? Do you really have dread when you see your mom's name show up on your phone?
Guest NateC Posted April 23, 2013 Posted April 23, 2013 I do wonder what your Mom felt when she said that last part. Was she afraid? Was she angry? Was she sad? I'm still ambivalent when I see my parents call. I'm trying to reach their emotions, to have them share their feelings with me when I share mine. With my Mom, I told her I was angry, and she first tried to manage my anger, then tried to explain it away, then broke down into self-attack. I wanted desperately for her to acknowledge that I was angry, but she wouldn't accept that feeling from me, and I felt like she wouldn't accept me.
MysterionMuffles Posted April 26, 2013 Author Posted April 26, 2013 Implementing RTR is tough because people are so damn wrapped up in externalizing their insecurities. People who blame the victim for the way the victim feels usually hold onto a lot of self resentment that they haven't taken care of internally. Does your mom seem like a happy person in her day to day life?
MysterionMuffles Posted April 29, 2013 Author Posted April 29, 2013 Alright, so I had the conversation again with my mom...I asked her to finally answer the question about how she felt about me being Atheist and she said that she was disappointed. I said, let's explore that and why she feels that way...I can't tell, but was this another dodge tactic? She basically went on about how statistically, people who don't believe in God are cursed to endure trouble like a coworker of hers whose wife had to get a leg amputated, and a lot of other crap happened to him for being arrogant, but then all of a sudden after much heartache...he believes in God now. I am this [ ] close to start saying that I believe in God again because he spoke to me in a dream. Ya know, just to mess with her. Be all like, "yeah I had this dream where I was in Hell getting tortured, but God's giant hand reached down and grabbed me out. He said, 'if you don't want to suffer this fate, you must believe in me again.' And so I tried my hardest to wake up, but he said, 'you cannot unless you agree to believe in me again. Otherwise you shall never wake.' Then I told him that I will, just so I can wake up. When I woke up this morning, I thought 'hah! sucker I still don't believe in God!' But while I was awake, his voice returned in my head and threatened to kill me where I lay if I chose not to keep my word." Hm...I didn't want that to be so fatalistic, but that sounds pretty accurate to God's nature anyway. Then I would start utilizing my repressed need to be an actor by convincing my parents that God actually talks to me on a daily basis and telling them what he wants me to do, and what he wants my parents to do. "You know, God told me that if you don't support the novel I'm writing, it won't get published and that you will doom yourself out of millions of dollars I would have shared with you." "You know, God told me that you should stop going to church, and instead spend the noon hour eating lunch with your kids, and actually communicating with them. He's happy with your devotion all these years that it's enough now." "You know, God told me that you need to apologize for the bad things you did to me as a kid, or he will give me the okay not to visit your deathbeds or even go to your funerals." I digress of course because I want to stay consistent with my virtue of truth: that I have become a more honest and better person since I've become an Atheist, a concept that my mom fails to fully grasp.
Guest NateC Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 I don't know if my mom is happy because she never opens up. While I think your "miracle conversion" would be absolutely hilarious, might be the last acting gig you're ever alive to do.
MysterionMuffles Posted April 30, 2013 Author Posted April 30, 2013 That deception can go in two different ways that are also split into two different ways: either she'll be happy that I've restored my faith and will whole heartedly believe that I DO talk to God--or she will think that I'm insane. She would either have to be really stupid to believe that God talks to me all of a sudden, or will try her hardest to fool herself into thinking that it is true. But if she conforms to logic and sanity, she will either declare me insane and get even more worried, or she will see through my disguise...in which case I would have to amplify the extremenity of acting.
Guest NateC Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Lol, you aren't seriously considering this, are you?
MysterionMuffles Posted April 30, 2013 Author Posted April 30, 2013 Well she does say that I need someone else to interpret the Bible FOR me, as if I don't have the capacity to think for myself, and when the debate gets too rough on her, she backs out saying she's not the best person to argue this. Instead she insists that she invite one of her religious friends over one day to have the debate with me...whom I will obviously tear to the shreds no matter what he says. And something I didn't mention was that she shut down the argument that way after I said, "I've become a better person since I've become Atheist. And our relationship is so much better now too. I accept you as you are for being Christian, so why can't you accept me for being an Atheist? What difference should it make? I don't tell you that you're going to suffer for being a Christian. It's just too bad that you don't follow logic and that's okay. I understand, you just grew up with these beliefs so it's hard to let them go." She knew how right was, hence her reactive nature afterwards, and tendancy to shut the argument down... So to answer your question, YES. I am seriously considering this charade if it ever comes down to actually inviting her friend over to debate me FOR her, and I find their pompousity to be a bit too much. Here's to hoping that I'll never have to put up with that guy, but if it ever comes to pass, all Hell will break loose!!!
Guest NateC Posted April 30, 2013 Posted April 30, 2013 Do you feel this deception is in self-defense? Do you feel you may be projecting past trauma? If all Hell breaks loose, would it be dangerous or detrimental to your happiness? Where do you see yourself in five years, and does this plan help get you to your goal?
MysterionMuffles Posted April 30, 2013 Author Posted April 30, 2013 Do you feel this deception is in self-defense? Do you feel you may be projecting past trauma? If all Hell breaks loose, would it be dangerous or detrimental to your happiness? Where do you see yourself in five years, and does this plan help get you to your goal? Yes it's definite self defense. And of course I am projecting past trauma, it's the trauma I mentioned in the opening comment. If all Hell broke loose it would obviously be dangerous to my happiness, because that charade is dishonesty trying to dispell honesty. I want to stick to honesty, and next time this happens try better at RTR. I had the argument again tonight and I'm not proud of it, but I resorted to yelling at her because she wouldn't maintain eye contact or respond to me relevantly as she distracted herself with her phone and laundry. Next time, I really need to cool my jets and try RTR. Where do I see my self in five years...I really don't know. My goal is to invite honesty into my relationship with my parents while I become financially independant. If I cannot patch the damage between us, I will have to defoo once I'm able to live on my own. I don't want to do that, because I know we can connect on many levels when religion is not involved. In five years from now, I want to have published a couple of novels, found a steady and enjoyable sales job, start dating again. But until most of that can happen, I feel they are impossible because there's just so much hidden distress in my home life due to unresolved issues that get constantly swept under the rug.
Guest NateC Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Don't you think this deception you have planned will destroy any chance of patching the relationship between you and your parents?
MysterionMuffles Posted May 1, 2013 Author Posted May 1, 2013 But I'm not actually going to do it. As I said, my goal is to try and invite more honesty into my relationship with them before I become financially independant enough to move out and choose to never see them again.
Guest NateC Posted May 1, 2013 Posted May 1, 2013 Well best of luck man. Hope your situation improves either with or without your parents.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 3, 2013 Author Posted May 3, 2013 Thanks. Question to anyone: do you think it'd be a fair and wise to make this proposition to my mom? Instead of arguing with each other about what I should be or not, let's just let our Sunday rituals speak for themselves. Obviously she goes to church, and I stay home to listen to the call in show. I want to start quizzing her on what the Bible passage the sermon was based on, and how the priest interpreted it. Basically see what she learned in church that Sunday, something she should've done with me if she wanted me to really care about it. Then on the flipside, I will tell her about one or all of the conversations had on the Sunday call in show, and what I have learned.
Mellony Posted June 2, 2013 Posted June 2, 2013 Well she does say that I need someone else to interpret the Bible FOR me Things like this really piss me off....if god is so worried about us finding him, why would he make his inspired word so complex that regular people can't understand it. That's always been a tactic the religious people around me say, that I need to find a pastor, etc to help me understand it in its real context. It's truely sickening! I'm glad you found your way after all the indoctrination. Kudos to you!
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