Rape Culture

[Mister Mister]

  http://rantagainsttherandom.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/so-youre-tired-of-hearing-about-rape-culture/

  When I saw the title of this, and the blog description, I was expecting the typical radical feminist hysteria, but I was really shocked after seeing the video, and the collage of social media posts.  I am really at a loss to understand what conditions produce these kinds of people.  I would be very interested if Stef did a show about this.  Anyone have any thoughts? 

[SimonF]

My thoughts are that I don't accept this "rape culture" narrative.

I apparantly live in a "rape culture", yet after 46 years of life I have not once been told or even heard it intimated that I should rape. So where is this rape culture?

We actually live in a power-over culture because of the widespread belief in authority, i.e. might makes right, we also live in a culture where being weak and vulnerable is seen as being pathetic. As a man I experience this as the "man up" culture.

We also live in a culture where bodily autonomy is disregarded very widely, a big example being children at school.

The feminists cannot deal with the above truths because it doesn't get women as victims into the spotlight and because they want to keep their finger on the gun in the room. While they get attention they can get tax loot and emotional supply.

[NumberSix]

I view it as a culture based on bullying.  Which makes the current anti-bully in school campaignes so ironic.

[RestoringGuy]

A documentary video of a male baby being circumcised looks like a rape.  Feminists will not watch and say nothing when asked whether they support such an act.  Bodily choice has nothing to do with their agenda.  I have heard their case for compassion for female victim (which I get) but the reverse is forbidden.  If you read feminist online comments, they usually say circumcision is not a woman's issue, despite a woman's signature on hospital paperwork.  I have never heard anyone say rape is not a man's issue, or a reason to put heads in the sand so to speak.  If anything, rape and circumcision are both claimed to be the fault of men themselves.  They want to tell only half the story.

[Guest spam dumpster]

Anyone have any thoughts?

Took me a while to read that article and as many of the associated links as I could handle, but here are my thoughts on what this "rape culture" is.

I think I'll begin by telling every joke feminists find funny.  Okay.  Now that I've done that, let's move right along.

I think it's a pejortative for people who question feminazi propaganda. (On a side note, FireFox is telling me, "feminazi" is a word. Way to go, FireFox!)  If you don't buy into their "Women get paid less than women," "Joking is just as bad as raping," "Not supporting abortion means you hate women, "Not hating men means you hate women," and...  I'm going to stop here, but this goes on ad nauseum.  If you don't buy into this offensively obvious, malicious propaganda, then you're a supporter of this "rape culture."

Let's be perfectly frank, with very few sociopathic exceptions, nobody supports rape.  Nobody.  Claiming someone supports rape to demonise them is indicative that you know you're wrong and you don't care.  It's comparable to what the state does.  It's filthy, it's malicious, and it's a blatant violation of the non-aggression principle.

This is why people don't like feminists.  This crap right here.

[RestoringGuy]

 

This is why people don't like feminists.  This crap right here.

 

Yes.  But it should be said that the word feminist applied here means the modern (college) feminist and the resulting welfare state, not classical feminists in history.  Sadly the word is corrupted.   On http://www.cnn.com/LIVING  there is right now a headline: Raising a boy not to be a rapist.  As if rapist is natural and popular and must be programmed out.

Imagine if there were a headline "Raising a daughter not to circumcise boys".

 

[Mister Mister]

  All of this is good discussion, and I am not defending some feminist narrative, or the idea of "rape culture".  I am really trying to understand the mindset of the teenage boys in the video, and the people who were so outraged that they got sentenced to a few years of Juvenile Detention, ruining their "promising futures".  Maybe the majority of people don't engage in this "blaming the victim", I don't know, but even these few tweets make me sick.  It's clear that in many areas, however, society does blame the victim, especially victims of state injustice.

[Mister Mister]

 

 

This is why people don't like feminists.  This crap right here.

 

Yes.  But it should be said that the word feminist applied here means the modern (college) feminist and the resulting welfare state, not classical feminists in history.  Sadly the word is corrupted.   On http://www.cnn.com/LIVING  there is right now a headline: Raising a boy not to be a rapist.  As if rapist is natural and popular and must be programmed out.

Imagine if there were a headline "Raising a daughter not to circumcise boys".

 

 

 

Yes that's really obnoxious.  Recently I read another article with a similar title, maybe "How not to raise a rapist" that was much more sensible.  Among the first words were "DON'T ABUSE YOUR CHILDREN".

[Rick Horton]

 

My thoughts are that I don't accept this "rape culture" narrative.

I apparantly live in a "rape culture", yet after 46 years of life I have not once been told or even heard it intimated that I should rape. So where is this rape culture?

We actually live in a power-over culture because of the widespread belief in authority, i.e. might makes right, we also live in a culture where being weak and vulnerable is seen as being pathetic. As a man I experience this as the "man up" culture.

We also live in a culture where bodily autonomy is disregarded very widely, a big example being children at school.

The feminists cannot deal with the above truths because it doesn't get women as victims into the spotlight and because they want to keep their finger on the gun in the room. While they get attention they can get tax loot and emotional supply.

 

Interesting view

[Rick Horton]

 

A documentary video of a male baby being circumcised looks like a rape.  Feminists will not watch and say nothing when asked whether they support such an act.  Bodily choice has nothing to do with their agenda.  I have heard their case for compassion for female victim (which I get) but the reverse is forbidden.  If you read feminist online comments, they usually say circumcision is not a woman's issue, despite a woman's signature on hospital paperwork.  I have never heard anyone say rape is not a man's issue, or a reason to put heads in the sand so to speak.  If anything, rape and circumcision are both claimed to be the fault of men themselves.  They want to tell only half the story.

 

Circumcision boggles my mind. I don't think about it much. I was circumcised at birth, I think? I mean it doesn't bother me that I was. I've never thought about it. The procedure doesn't have any scientific advatage? I always thought it helped keep the area cleaner but it probably doesn't do anything beneficial does it? Most women, when I hear them talk about it, say they think uncircumcised men are gross. I guess they're just so used to seeing the penis in a circumcised way. I don't consider it abuse, really that men are circumsized. I consider it tradition, but a rather strange one. It reminds me of tribes that pierce their bodies and put pins and spiers through their bodies for ritualistic beliefs. I mean, if that's what they like to do, then who am I to say what they can do with their babies?

[Rick Horton]

So back to the topic. I think rape is awful. When a woman says no, it means NO. And if it "doesn't" mean no, a man should still STOP and take that no as meaning no.

[Mister Mister]

 

So back to the topic. I think rape is awful. When a woman says no, it means NO. And if it "doesn't" mean no, a man should still STOP and take that no as meaning no.

 

But I thought that you don't believe in morality. Your opinion that something is "awful" does not make a moral imperative.  I think a man having anal sex with another man is kind of gross but it's not immoral if its voluntary.  I also think heroine use and pork are awful.

"How can we tell them what to do with their babies".  How can a person "own" a baby?  Put wife or slave in that sentence and see how it sounds.

[Rick Horton]

 

 

So back to the topic. I think rape is awful. When a woman says no, it means NO. And if it "doesn't" mean no, a man should still STOP and take that no as meaning no.

 

But I thought that you don't believe in morality. Your opinion that something is "awful" does not make a moral imperative.  I think a man having anal sex with another man is kind of gross but it's not immoral if its voluntary.  I also think heroine use and pork are awful.

"How can we tell them what to do with their babies".  How can a person "own" a baby?  Put wife or slave in that sentence and see how it sounds.

 

I never said I don't believe in morality. I do judge rape to be immoral. 

Now instead of trying to turn my statement about babies around, why not answer the question? How can we tell them what to do with their babies?  I won't play word games based on equivication, which so many people here think I do, but is obviously what you are doing. You are equivicating Parents and their children with Wives and Slaves. Homie doesn't play that game. Don't divert. How can we tell people what to do with their children? "Try" and answer. REALLY try not to just ask another question. It's an honest question. I think I deserve an answer to it. We can talk about Wives and Slaves another time.

[Mister Mister]

   So how do you define morality?

  Well the words "parent" and "children" are not really relevant when talking about morality.  Rather the question is "how can we tell people what to do to other people".  Well that's the whole point behind morality to begin with.  Unless you can prove to me why something which is normally immoral becomes moral when a parent does it to a child.  There are some adults who are uncircumcised, so why don't we cut up their penis by force?

[Guest spam dumpster]

 

  All of this is good discussion, and I am not defending some feminist narrative, or the idea of "rape culture".  I am really trying to understand the mindset of the teenage boys in the video, and the people who were so outraged that they got sentenced to a few years of Juvenile Detention, ruining their "promising futures".  Maybe the majority of people don't engage in this "blaming the victim", I don't know, but even these few tweets make me sick.

 It's clear that in many areas, however, society does blame the victim, especially victims of state injustice.

 

 

I'm not sure about that.  I don't know the context.  I don't know what happened. The feminist in the blog was calling them rapists who were joking about a rape they just committed.  Many of these social networking posts proclaimed that the sex was consentual or that all parties were drunk, but only the boys got punished.  If the blog post is correct about what happened (not likely), then it is sickening.  But, like I said, I don't have all the facts.  I can't pass judgement.

[Mister Mister]

well they were joking about how "dead" she is, implying that she was blackout drunk.  It may be true that there are false accusations, but in this case it seems that this girl brought on a lot of shame and hatred in exchange for what?

[Rick Horton]

 

   So how do you define morality?

  Well the words "parent" and "children" are not really relevant when talking about morality.  Rather the question is "how can we tell people what to do to other people".  Well that's the whole point behind morality to begin with.  Unless you can prove to me why something which is normally immoral becomes moral when a parent does it to a child.  There are some adults who are uncircumcised, so why don't we cut up their penis by force?

 

Oh, I see. You won't answer the question. Okay. You don't have an answer. I see you want to change my question, but I wont accept those terms, either. I asked a question and you refuse to "refuse" to answer it. 

[lyghtningrod]

 

  All of this is good discussion, and I am not defending some feminist narrative, or the idea of "rape culture".  I am really trying to understand the mindset of the teenage boys in the video, and the people who were so outraged that they got sentenced to a few years of Juvenile Detention, ruining their "promising futures".  Maybe the majority of people don't engage in this "blaming the victim", I don't know, but even these few tweets make me sick.

 

Back when I was that age in the 60s there were certainly people who thought like that, who made crude cruel jokes, but not a single one of them had a YouTube or Twitter account,

I see all these comments ("if she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have been drinking") and know that people have always thought this, but now it is tweeted for all to see, and stored for posterity.

 It's clear that in many areas, however, society does blame the victim, especially victims of state injustice.

Agreed. I see a mentality that says the Institution is more important than the people the institution serves.

"Football is important, therefore football players are important therefore any slight on our players is a slight on us. Anyone who says our Heros are not Perfect is a slut and deserved what she got."

This same attitude extends to Bradley Manning ("he was a soldier, hence his only duty was to follow orders"), Catholic Church (Who cares about those boys, it's the Church we must protect) and the list goes on.

[Mister Mister]

   No I think I am answering your question, I am not trying to avoid it.  The question  "how can you say what parents shouldn't do to their babies", is a subset of a larger question "how can you say what people shouldn't do to other people" which is the basis of any universal morality.  If you think it is legitimate to define Universal moral rules, then how can you justify exceptions for certain conceptual labels? If I say people shouldn't hit each other, the onus is on the person who makes an exception for police officers or parents to explain why this is the case.  Does that make sense?

[Guest darkskyabove]

My apologies to sensitive viewers. This posting is rather heated. The views expressed apply, mostly, to those who "believe" that they are entitled to have power over other humans.

Pardon my French, are these F*****g serious responses. Men who don't understand that there is NO excuse for rape should spend a week in the cell with "Bubba".

Rape is not some "feminist" agenda. Sure, they use it. So what!

It's all about force, and YOUR reaction to it. If one abides by the Non-Aggression-Principle, all force is wrong. If not, come to Forks and TRY to force me. It will be the last mistake you ever make.

It doesn't matter if she/he is drunk. It doesn't matter if she/he is sexually excited. It doesn't matter if YOU think "Whatever the hell you think". The violation of a person's physical being is the most callous, and I would say cowardly, expression of force imaginable. All bullies are cowards. Yeah, I said that. Haven't so-called humans learned anything.

The only way to combat evil is: HEADSHOT! Otherwise, it festers, and infects.

How long would it take for rape to disappear if rapists were eliminated? And I don't mean by the In-Justice system. I mean immediately.

Should women/men be more careful about their circumstances? Of course. Is that an acceptable excuse to violate them? Again, try that with ME. Predation only works on the weak.

I am sad to have witnessed people subscribed to a forum about FREEDOM who, obviously, think "Freedom for me, but not for Thee."

Maybe that will change.

The preceding views are not meant to advocate violence in any way, shape, or form. In fact, just the opposite.

[RestoringGuy]

 

Pardon my French, are these F*****g serious responses. Men who don't
understand that there is NO excuse for rape should spend a week in the
cell with "Bubba".

Rape is not some "feminist" agenda. Sure, they use it. So what!

It's all about force, and YOUR reaction to it. If one abides by the
Non-Aggression-Principle, all force is wrong. If not, come to Forks and
TRY to force me. It will be the last mistake you ever make.

The problem is clear.  Those who generalize to group-blame are advocating violence even when they are feminists.  Let's say if a person suggests black people should be blamed for crimes due to some perceived statistical prevalence of street criminals, it is an assault on the non-guilty blacks.  Same goes for blaming men for rape and lobbying for special gender law (VAWA and FGM act).  The culture is the crime.  I have witnessed women who don't understand that cutting a baby's penis is an assault.  By your own reasoning, you should be declaring those particular women's genitials should be at the mercy of "bubba" and a knife.

[Guest darkskyabove]

Let's cut to the chase. Any who advocate force as acceptable, say so. Arguing a point sideways, upside-down, has no bearing on reality.

The issue of rape is an issue of force. It matters not how some may sneak it into their fallacious agenda.

The issue of women's rights vs. men's rights is a separate topic (what about human rights; aren't women and men both human?). Confusing the issue is tantamount to advocating force.

What I presented, in my "heated" post, was the idea that any, and all, force is, not only morally reprehensible, but, potentially, personally disastrous. What happens when the advocate of force plies their wares upon a more dangerous opponent?

If any wish to quibble on the "feminist agenda", feel free. Just understand, if you quibble about rape of a female, you must also quibble about rape of a male, or yourself, to remain consistent. (Inconsistency being the hobgoblin of little minds.)

Blame is a non-productive avenue, tried for millenia; what are its results?

Now, back to reality. Rape, along with every other expression of force, is WRONG. A "culture" which provides consent for force, by whatever justification, is WRONG. There is one, and only one, exception to the wrongness of force, that being defense. Some have tried to argue that defense is an act of aggression. B******t!!! Without the original aggressive act, defense would not exist.

Do we live in a "rape culture"? Well, what a can of worms that opens. Is not taxation, by the barrel of a gun, not rape of your financial independence? Is not irrationality, disguised as serious debate, not a raping of your mind? See how semantics can be used? Rape = Force.

Rape is the physical violation of another without explicit consent. Implicit consent be damned. Political agendas be damned. Personal quibbles be damned.

What will YOU do, if someone tries to force their will upon you?

[Steinhauser]

Now, back to reality. Rape, along with every other expression of force, is WRONG. A "culture" which provides consent for force, by whatever justification, is WRONG. There is one, and only one, exception to the wrongness of force, that being defense. Some have tried to argue that defense is an act of aggression. B******t!!! Without the original aggressive act, defense would not exist.

Men who don't understand that there is NO excuse for rape should spend a week in the cell with "Bubba".

Remember that scene in Scanners where the guy's head explodes? Imagine it here 'cause I don't want to find and post a .gif.

How is locking a man in a cage to be raped "defense"? That is "punishment," inflicting negative conditions on a person in retribution for a past crime. You are clearly advocating not just forced confinement (an expression of force), but that a disarmed and restrained person be repeatedly abused (an expression of force).

Wait, I didn't even need that first quote. The second one is immediately self-defeating. You're suggesting that a man who meets your definition of rape advocacy or apologism should be raped by "Bubba". Then it immediately follows that Bubba, who clearly advocates rape, should be raped. And who's raping his Bubba's rapist? Why, whoever it is, you better find someone to give him what he deserves. And on, and on.

 

I'm not even going to touch on why feminists lying about rape is appalling and harmful to both men and women. It seems fruitless in the face of more basic contradictions.

[Guest spam dumpster]

Do we live in a "rape culture"? Well, what a can of worms that opens. Is not taxation, by the barrel of a gun, not rape of your financial independence? Is not irrationality, disguised as serious debate, not a raping of your mind? See how semantics can be used? Rape = Force

 

 

All your other highly emotional ranting aside, this makes some real sense.  Is rape, along with other criminality, created by a society ruled by a powerful few forcefully imposing their will on weaker people, thus giving us the subliminal idea that doing so ourselves is okay?

Even though nobody actually advocates rape with word, actions do speak louder than words.  Something to think about.

[Guest darkskyabove]

 

Now, back to reality. Rape, along with every other expression of force, is WRONG. A "culture" which provides consent for force, by whatever justification, is WRONG. There is one, and only one, exception to the wrongness of force, that being defense. Some have tried to argue that defense is an act of aggression. B******t!!! Without the original aggressive act, defense would not exist.

Men who don't understand that there is NO excuse for rape should spend a week in the cell with "Bubba".

 

How is locking a man in a cage to be raped "defense"?

 

So, cut and paste, and rearrange, is the new-tech method of being in possession of a straw man; where did I claim "Bubba" as some form of defense? Or, is it ad hominem: rule out the argument because of a prior unrelated rant. I'm sure we'll accomplish much by using fallacious reasoning to attack my fallacious reasoning.

I can accept being chastised for my ranting. I will work harder at suppressing it.

 

Even though nobody actually advocates rape with word, actions do speak louder than words.  Something to think about.

 

You said it much better than I. Thank you.

[Steinhauser]

where did I claim "Bubba" as some form of defense?

Oh sorry, when you proposed violent people be dealt with violently, it lead me to assume that you considered that to fall under defense, because defense is what you (in your "unrelated" post on exactly the same topic) called the "one, and only one exception" to the rule that all violence is wrong.

 

If your rant was simply an emotional venting, and nothing more, than okay. I apologize for my misunderstanding, if you can understand how your words might not have come across with the clarity you wanted.

 

That aside, I'd love to get to the meat of the matter. If rape is bad, rape of anyone is bad. I think your last post establishes our agreement on this topic.

If rape advocacy of the average citizen (male or female) exists, in any more sense than an ephemeral "force is used wholesale against people so those people get the subliminal idea that using force against others is justified," I have yet to see anything concrete to substantiate it.

 

If there is any kind of rape culture in the West - if rape is considered acceptable, or justified, or "a laughing matter" in any circle - it is the rape of male prison inmates by other male prison inmates.

This was my main contention with your Bubba comment. Perhaps I got emotional as well, but it so clearly illustrated the double standard that pervades common thought. No one in regular society advocates rape of a woman. No one advocates rape of a man walking down the street (although they will certainly discuss that topic less, and joke about it more). But can you honestly say that the rape of prison inmates is viewed with the same open revulsion and disapproval as rape of "innocent" victims? Or is it something regularly laughed at, considered par for the course in the (male) penal system, and written off as "they all deserve whatever happens to them in there"?

 

Rape is not a feminist agenda. Lying about rape to cast women as perpetual victims, while writing off or ignoring male victims of rape is a feminist agenda. And that campaign has shaped pretty much every perception we have of rape in our culture.

[Guest darkskyabove]

Steinhauser: Thanks for accepting my ranting crap for what it's worth.

I am not trying to align with any feminist agenda. Just to be clear, I am male. I do agree that most "feminist" propaganda is fallacious, at best, motivated by a desire for power, at worst.

What bothers me is the idea that "no one advocates rape".That is true, with words, and as long as the issue does not touch them personally. As The Ceej responded, actions do speak louder than words, and, I would add, carry more truth. I'm probably out of my depth here, but recent history, especially, shows me that forced sex is commonly "swept under the rug" so to speak. Blaming the victim is prevalent, and sex offenders are probably more hated than terrorists, even though research indicates they were sexually, or at least physically, abused as children. Which is, again, blaming the victim. Not to condone, just to keep the point clear.

So, "We don't live in a Rape culture". Let's try that on for size. I would argue that rape is an unjustifiable use of force. Period. What other unjustifiable uses of force do we encounter in modern, "civilized", society? Need I produce the entire list? If the use of force has insinuated itself into the very fabric of existence, I would argue that rape is just another manifestation of acceptable force. Used as a scapegoat at times, but "whitewashed" when it affects more important issues: like the local football team, or a priest, or politician.

PS: What about the man, imprisoned for violation of unconscionable drug laws for possession of marijuana, who is raped in jail? Isn't he an innocent victim?

[RestoringGuy]

 

Rape is not a feminist agenda. Lying about rape to cast women as perpetual victims, while writing off or ignoring male victims of rape is a feminist agenda. And that campaign has shaped pretty much every perception we have of rape in our culture.

 

Yes that makes sense.  If a person says "Johnny should be murdered", nobody interprets or reimagines this to apply to all people -- or even any class of people. It just means Johnny and that's all.  When rape is condoned as part of some sick humor or commentary toward one person, the speaker is often said to be supporting rape of all women generally (even when no gender targeting was ever specified).  Now this occasionally happens with race.  A person who insults a famous non-white person is occasionally called "racist" even if an insult was never even remotely racist.  During my academic studies, I have found a coordinated effort on campus to practice group blame, posters like "when will men stop raping" and "stop men's violence against women".  I have learned perhaps too late that it is intellectually dishonest, but I have learned I suppose.  When I see that, I feel very sad.  Many of their words are DESIGNED so only by getting sex change could I escape being hated.

[Guest darkskyabove]

 

If a person says "Johnny should be murdered", nobody interprets or reimagines this to apply to all people -- or even any class
of people. It just means Johnny and that's all.  When rape is condoned
as part of some sick humor or commentary toward one person, the speaker
is often said to be supporting rape of all women generally (even when no
gender targeting was ever specified).  Now this occasionally happens
with race.  A person who insults a famous non-white person is
occasionally called "racist" even if an insult was never even remotely
racist.  During my academic studies, I have found a coordinated effort
on campus to practice group blame, posters like "when will men stop
raping" and "stop men's violence against women".  I have learned perhaps
too late that it is intellectually dishonest, but I have learned I
suppose.  When I see that, I feel very sad.  Many of their words are
DESIGNED so only by getting sex change could I escape being hated.

 

So, you're an "anti-feminist". Of course, I could, simply, examine your avatar to conclude your single-issue status. (Not an ad hominem attack as I, in no way, imply this as a reason to discount your argument.) If you wish to attack the "feminist agenda", why not start your own
thread? You'd probably find me in agreement that their reasoning is
fallacious.

What has this to do with a potential rape culture? It is not only the "feminists" who are questioning this. I am not trying to attack you, or anyone else; I am trying to get to the heart of the matter.

Do you, or don't you, condone force?

Is taxation a use of force? Are there those who "lie" about it to promote their agenda? Does that mean that taxation is not a use of force?

I completely agree that the dialogue has been skewed by sensationalism. So? Let's unskew it.

Is there a "rape culture" in the world? Meaning, is force accepted when convenient.

I say, yes, there is. Humans, both male and female, even the unborn, are treated like cattle, to be bought and sold, or manipulated, into the pasture designated by the self-proclaimed owners. Practicality trumps principle when it comes down to the local "trailer trash" vs. the football team.

Do people lie about being raped? Yes. Does that mean that rape doesn't happen, or isn't "swept under the rug"? No.

Initiation of force is WRONG. A "culture" that has not defined this, exactly, is subject to doubt about its integrity. If any wish to argue that the initiation of force is RIGHT, I will listen.

If we accept that the initiation of force is wrong, any commentary which attempts to side-step the primary issue by obfuscation, or other fallacious skulduggery (Note: fallacy is the politically correct term for lying), is inherently wrong, for it does not address the primary issue.

Premise 1: People accept force, when convenient to their agenda. This is a cultural phenomenon.

Premise 2: Rape is force.

Conclusion: People accept rape, when convenient, therefore a "rape culture" exists.

 

[Steinhauser]

If we live in a rape culture, you can't dispute we also certainly live in a murder culture. Far deeper in one, to something on the scale of probably 1000 or more murders depicted for each rape depicted. (That's a blind and probably way too conservative guess.)

But no one says we live in a "murder culture." Why? Because it's not a gendered issue! (Well, not one that benefits feminists - 76% of murder victims are men.)

 

The only reason to turn "[atrocity]" into "[atrocity] culture" is to blame society, or a large subset of that society as a whole, for the crimes of a few individuals.

The only reason "rape" is the atrocity in question is because rape is a gendered issue. (Mostly due to feminist spin; more men are raped than women.) Everyone inside the "rape culture" becomes easily identified as victims (women) or perpetrators (men).

 

If your point is that people use force over people as a matter of their day-to-day dealings, and that none of that force is justifiable yet most is culturally accepted, fine. I agree with your premise. But calling that a "rape culture" gives it the unnecessary and specific distinction of sexual violence, which (outside of prisons) has never been condoned by those in power, and has never been socially acceptible (at least not this century or last).

 

If you must call it a culture.... it's a child abuse culture.

[Guest darkskyabove]

Good stuff Steinhauser.

I think you're on to something: "Force Culture".

I must rethink giving ammunition to the aggressors. Okay, that's done. No more ammo for them.

A gender-based dialogue serves no one. Are we not all human?

Premise 1: Force is wrong.

[Steinhauser]

Phew I'm glad we actually do agree after all. I had a feeling we were saying the same things but using the wrong words.

I'm retaining too many bad habits from arguing about gender politics...what a toxic dump that landscape is.

[Guest darkskyabove]

I just have the potential to be more hard-headed than your avatar. Oh, wait, isn't Homer soft-headed?

Thanks for staying the course.

And thanks, also, to RestoringGuy. I think if you re-read my posts and substitute "force" for "rape", we might be on a closer page than first imagined.

[RestoringGuy]

 

So, you're an "anti-feminist". Of course, I could, simply, examine your avatar to conclude your single-issue status. (Not an ad hominem attack as I, in no way, imply this as a reason to discount your argument.) If you wish to attack the "feminist agenda", why not start your own
thread? You'd probably find me in agreement that their reasoning is
fallacious.

What has this to do with a potential rape culture? It is not only the "feminists" who are questioning this. I am not trying to attack you, or anyone else; I am trying to get to the heart of the matter.

Do you, or don't you, condone force?

Is taxation a use of force? Are there those who "lie" about it to promote their agenda? Does that mean that taxation is not a use of force?

Conclusion: People accept rape, when convenient, therefore a "rape culture" exists.

 

 

I am sorry I don't understand all your points.  I am a feminist only in that I support equality.  I am anti-feminist only in that I oppose the elevated social standing most females receive.  When there is male elevated social entitlement, I oppose that also.  I oppose force and lying unless there exists no alternative defensive option.  We are probably not in disagreement on these matters.

Culture is just a word, like constellation.  To say what things belong to culture and what does not, you have to pick those things.  And you can pick anything!  Just as you can pick 12 stars and call it constellation Flibstoi, there is a culture of "hitmen vegetarians who like Linux".  If in your view, culture includes all accepted things, then yes you provide a valid existence proof.  So we also have a "flat-earth-believing culture" too.  I am not clear what is being obfuscated exactly.  It would seem you should explain whether culture to you means somebody somewhere does it, or whether you mean behaviors that were chosen to name the culture are typical behaviors.

Many years ago I have heard some sick rape comments and bad jokes, and I agree it is all evil.  We can say let's enforce defensively without brutality, but males genes involve competitive sperm and it is easier to form a blind spot toward male pain.  In youth I thought pandering would win favor, and I found the opposite and I was hated.  Whether it is feminists who judge "male" culture in some way, or traditionalists who think I was too weak, I was at a loss.  Genitals are simply not worth anything unless they are female -or- they are yours.  It's proven by which kicks to the groin are being laughed at.  I am happier now because I realize there is no "culture" at all.

[Guest spam dumpster]

 

Phew I'm glad we actually do agree after all. I had a feeling we were saying the same things but using the wrong words.

I'm retaining too many bad habits from arguing about gender politics...what a toxic dump that landscape is.

 

 

I think the misconmmunication came from dark's overly emotional wording, and overuse of hyperbole (probably due to the emotion).  This is something I've been prone to do myself, so I certainly understand why one would do it and why one would resist it.