Trouble in Canada

[NiggilousOnline]

I live along with Mr. Molyneux up in the Great White North and I seem to run into a uniquely Canadian problem when talking about anarchy with my friends and family. 

Here in Canada our sense of national pride has to be amoung the most pathetic I know of. Our sense of pride and identity pretty entirely consists of our contrast to the U.S. Canadians seem to view their government as an example of a funtional democracy for this reason, regardless of how bad things are, "at lease it's better than the U.S. system." 

So my friends and family may understand that the state is entirely violence, and immoral, but to them it's not that bad. It's not perfect, but it's a "responcible government that responds to the will of the people" (unlike the stupid American system. Hahaha! We are so progressive). They say that the government is a neccessary evil, and that they trust it. It's hard to explain why the Canadian government is so horrible because I find Canadians are much less critical of their government, simply because they're always comparing our system to the American system. 

Has anyone else delt with this silly and stuborn Canadian pride? 

[Existing Alternatives]

 

Has anyone else delt with this silly and stuborn Canadian pride? 

 

You mean, “…at least we have universal healthcare…” kind of pride?

Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer for you - it’s been my struggle up here as well. Please let me know, if you find a solution. The standard response I’ve been given in any argument, was “if you like capitalism/guns/freedom/you-name-it so much, just move to the States.” How do you respond to this? Better yet, even libertarians up here tend to be more of a “liberal” variety, as in “government bad, but somebody needs to provide healthcare.”

My favourite battle was with an NDP-leaning friend of mine about “two-tier healthcare system”… pointing out that Maple Leafs players have their own MRI machines, and don’t have to wait for months for a routine scan seemed to have made a slight dent in his thinking.

 

[MysterionMuffles]

I can understand your confusion. It is tough to criticize the Canadian government because it doesn't seem all that corrupted. They are kind of subtle about it I guess. To many people, our government seems like a joke in which our army consists of one mounty with a slingshot and an old beaten horse. 

I would say that we are pretty lucky that our system isn't too blatantly corrupt. But the fact that drugs are still too criminalized. Not a single province I know of has yet to legalize marijuana. A good argument in this case WOULD be the war on drugs. The fact that people go to jail for non-violent crimes is appalling.

OH and there's this thing with cops here in Canada where they are so bored, they patrol areas just to catch people committing the smallest of crimes so they can get charged up the ass for it. For instance, I once got taking a left turn during the "wrong hours" which is usually designated so that rush hour doesn't clog up. BUT when I took that left turn, there were no cars coming from the end, and although I could have easily used another street before or after it, and of course I should have read the sign--I still got a ticket for it only because a cop was parked nearby to catch drunken St. Patty's drivers. It took months before I could even appeal the case and they disillusioned me with weird choices.

Either I pay in full and get 2 demerit points on my license, or I get a reduced fine with no demerit points. The third choice I can't even remember, but who the hell would actively choose the first choice anyway?! Obviously I chose the reduced fine, but it was utter bullshit. I had to leave work at the middle of the day to sit around the court house in line with other minor crime committers, not get paid for those hours and continue to lose money to pay for something I did MONTHS prior to that day.

What my point of this little story is this: when you argue about the Canadian government still being evil, despite being a "neccessary one" if that even makes sense, you mention how mental it is to get charged for menial things. I don't know what the fair reprecussion is for the "crime" I committed, but I sure as hell don't think taking money out of my pocket as well as pulling me out of work to pay it isn't fair. Not to mention that paycheck got TAXED anyway so I lost out on more income because of something so stupid. 

Well those are my two cents anyway.

 

[Steinhauser]

Very true about the cops. They have quotas for catching crimes - that's right, if fewer crimes happen, individual police stand to lose personally. How's that for motive to prevent crime? Of course, if their numbers are low they shore them up by "farming" minor, ticketable infractions.

And of course, while you're sitting in court without pay, they're being paid to show up. It's just another day on the job for them.

My theory of why drugs are still criminalized is directly connected to how boring and harmless our government seems. Young people, the driving force of change, just don't care.

“if you like capitalism/guns/freedom/you-name-it so much, just move to the States.” How do you respond to this?

Maybe like, "If you like government healthcare/subsidies/regulations so much, just move to the EU." Then perhaps ask them how the Euro's been doing lately.

 

EDIT: Oh, I forgot the topic at hand, of course.

Yeah, comparison to the States is probably the biggest mental barrier to Canadians caring at all about the government. It's true, compared to the fecal tsunami of the US govt, the relatively minor leaky-sceptic-tank lawn puddle of the Canadian govt seems harmless and not worth dwelling on. But this is based on sheer scale alone, the US has reached critical mass that allows for corruption unseen in Canada.

Per capita, Canada probably has more violence than the States.

[The_Dude_Abides]

I'm also (formerly) from Canada and this is a topic that has interested/ annoyed me over the years.   I've concluded that Canadian nationalism can basically be summed up in two words: NOT American.  This is such a deeply rooted part of the national psyche, I don't know if people could ever be deprogrammed.   Historically speaking, Canada was kind of designed to be THE Anti-America though, so I suppose it's not that suprising.

 

side note:  this site has some good commentary on Canadian pride visa vis anti-Americansm you might find interesting.   http://www.thecanadaguide.com/anti-americanism

[The_Dude_Abides]

oh yeah, and very true abou the cops, bored and clearly over police to make quotas.   I remember years ago while visting my parents in their small town, I got stopped by the only cop in town for not coming to a complete stop at an intersection. I was in surbanan area with no other cars at the 4-way- I mean, come on..

[MysterionMuffles]

In a way that's a good thing because if more and more people get charged for miniscule crimes, they start to question the miniscuality (is that even a word?) of the police. That is of course they have any sense or desire of personal freedom. My uncle got charged over $100+ for speeding only 10 km/h over the speed limit ON THE PASSING LANE where you're supposed to go fast anyway. Now I don't know what near accident he may have gotten into or not, but I do think someone reported him as such because of their own personal fear of getting rear ended. I wasn't there, so I don't know if he was nearly tail gating, but still. It usually becomes an outrage for people to get charged with tiny offenses, and that I think is a good stepping stone to uncovering the veil of illusion that the cops are there to serve and protect. In actuality it's just to be bossy and abusive with their authority, no matter how trivial the instance is.

[Connor]

the patriotic tim hortons/ molson canadian commercials are particularly insufferable 

[The_Dude_Abides]

oh man, Tim Hortons recently expanded into the UAE and when they first opened the Canadian expat community here was all estatic .  The most embarassing thing was the Canadian Ambassador actually cut the ribbon at their grand opening in Abu Dhabi..... seriously, our government officials are opening up our "national doughnut chain".   Whatever shred of national pride that may have been lingering within me, died that day.

[PatrickC]

I used to hang out with some Canadians in London (UK) some years back and they would have this thing every time they would meet fellow Canadians (particularly the women). "Aren't Canadians just so nice".

Not that I would have disagreed. Personally this group of Canadians were nice. But it did come off as kind of insincere and rather cheesy frankly. Particularly when they would make this statement whilst amongst other foreigners.

I think as others here have suggested, it comes from the US comparison and very much what they consider to be a progressive European panache the Americans don't share with them. In fairness this kind of bigotry is not just for Canadians of course, many Europeans and Australasians share it as well.

[Existing Alternatives]

 

“if you like capitalism/guns/freedom/you-name-it so much, just move to the States.” How do you respond to this?

Maybe like, "If you like government healthcare/subsidies/regulations so much, just move to the EU." Then perhaps ask them how the Euro's been doing lately.

 

That's funny. I usually refer them to North Korea.

 

Per capita, Canada probably has more violence than the States.

 

I've seen an interesting study somewhere which compares not national averages US vs. Can, but rather regional. The mix of population is very different natonally, but there are certain regions that are very close both culturally and geographically. Some examples would be Greater Vancouver to Greater Seattle, or Saskatchewan to Montana / North Dakota, or New Brunswick to Maine. I don't have the numbers handy, but when I saw them, I was floored!

[Existing Alternatives]

 

I used to hang out with some Canadians in London (UK) some years back and they would have this thing every time they would meet fellow Canadians (particularly the women). "Aren't Canadians just so nice".

 

This is perhaps a tasteless joke, but at least Canadians don’t stage “Rest in Shame” protests during people’s funerals.

Being nice is just another form of propaganda in Canada. Having to travel back and forth between US and Canada on a very frequent basis, I seriously do not see any differences in niceness. At the same time, “nice” citizens are so much easier to rule, aren’t they?

[PatrickC]

This is perhaps a tasteless joke, but at least Canadians don’t stage “Rest in Shame” protests during people’s funerals.

Yes, it seems Thatcher has a special dark place in the hearts of many Brits.

Being nice is just another form of propaganda in Canada. Having to travel back and forth between US and Canada on a very frequent basis, I seriously do not see any differences in niceness. At the same time, “nice” citizens are so much easier to rule, aren’t they?

Yes, it was just an observation I made and could have been just specific to the individuals I knew. and possibly has nothing to do with their nationality. As you suggest, nice people exist everywhere of course (inc the US). I saw a similar belief amongst New Zealanders too and it struck me as a very novel type of patriotism. I don't think I've ever heard the British, US or many europeans consider their citizens as possessing a special type of 'nice'. Plenty of other patriotic nonsesnse of course. []

[Dumitru]

 

Has anyone else delt with this silly and stuborn Canadian pride? 

The Canadian flavour of patriotism is particularly cute, but it's not fundamentally different anywhere else in the world that I've seen.

I left, but I had other options on the table. Not that I consider leaving to be the equivalent to "dealing" with it.