stigskog Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 If I see a story online about hitting kids, i always put a comment in, at least so it doesn't look like everyone agrees that hitting kids is just basic common sense ... heres my comment.. look at the reaction to it ... illogical , irrational, angry, defensive. 8 hours ago Loads of parents raise amazing children and never ever hit, smack, tap them or whatever you want to call it. There is a ton of evidence that it is not necessary at all to smack a child to raise them well. So if it is not necessary why do it ? Smacking teaches a child that it is ok to use violence in order to control a situation.... this is part of the reason why we still have to live in a statist society, and that most people can't even see it for what it is.Smacking is used by failed lazy parents who have failed to reason, explain, negotiate and meet the needs of their child. The point of smacking a child is to scare or shock them in to changing their behaviour. You can also do this by shouting at them, it has the same negative effect. It prevents them from learning to regulate their own behavior. Fear and stress events inhibit the growth of the part of the brain that deals with self-regulation. There are tons of studies about this. Obviously the amount of damage done depends on the frequency and severity, but if it is not necessary why do it at all ? sircomespect 1 hour ago SNORT! ROFL! Ha ha ha ha! Another one!!! 'Loads of parents raise amazing children and never ever hit, smack, tap them or whatever you want to call it. ' And their children are always quiet, respectful of others and never run around restaurants or scream in supermarkets....really it is a total mystery why anyone should have to reprimand a child for anything!? Children are so wonderful and perfect and precious and fantastic and oh just so many things. Never a hindrance never a chore!" And yet............... Whatever parallel universe you muppets step into when you are around children it is nothing like the one I witness every day!! School kids throwing cats into the road, kicking over bins and pushing each other in front of traffic. Smoking on the way to school and yelling instead of talking, swearing, gobbing and challenging every adult they meet. I have seen the elderly being abused, the infirmed ridiculed, teased and pushed over and adults given the same respect you might reserve for a pile of dogs droppings by your precious and amazing children! 5 different Schools (all good, allegedly) I drive past and every one inhabited by the spawn of satan dropped off by vacuous women and men in highly polished 4X4's with Kangaroo bars right in the middle of the road and stay parked blocking traffic until little Clamydia gets through the gates! I have seen the results of your precious and amazing children. Quite frankly a smack is never going to be enough. IT is amazing how blind parents are to the aberrant behaviour of their own progeny. rphudson 1 hour ago @dalmatina: Do you model all your behaviour on dogs and monkeys, or is that restricted to violence against children? oakwoodbank 1 hour ago It is no good comparing human behaviour to animal behaviour or vice versa. Animals do not have a sense of self or theory of mind so their responses are almost always instinctive when it comes to mother animal and offspring relationships. rogerdodger 6 hours ago your comparing animal behaviour and suggesting this is on par with an intelligent person having no other recourse. I'm no Guardian reading liberal, a traumatic event is still with me today over forty years later. sircomespect 1 hour ago ROFL 'my perfect children' !!!! They're so good and never do anything wrong and all I ever did was love them and cuddle them and explain the rules of life and respect and they were perfect in all things and wonderful and loving and giving and amazing. Flowers came into bloom as they walked past and they always helped the elderly and fed the homeless. They always sat up straight they never farted or burped and were never a pain to others!!! What a doughnut!! dalmatina 8 minutes ago To those asking me if I would model my behaviour on animals, I would respond - IF YOUR CHILDREN BEHAVE LIKE ANIMALS, YOU SHOULD TREAT THEM LIKE ONE. Pussy-footing around, whether wringing your hands or simply ignoring quite appalling behaviour, while your brats cause misery to all around them is hardly a civilised thing to do.
PatrickC Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Yes, it's what I've come to expect regrettably, both sad and unpleasent to read. It's interesting that the first commenter flings his vitriol in a similar fashion to that of the school children he supposedy meets each day. I've noticed all too often that when adults experience other peoples children in the wild their sympathies are largely moot at best. I have certainly experenced fear around teenagers in big groups. They are in a state of nature of course, so I steer a wide berth around them. But I also remember at that age feeling a deep resentment towards adults who would blame teenagers for everything. It comes from a culture that like christianity still believes that children are born inherently bad. This is why we are now seeing children as young as 10 being hauled before the courts and not their parents.
Wesley Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I have felt similar feelings reading comments to articles about spanking or other forms of child abuse in the past. You see 80% of the comments and about 100% of the top comments all endorsing spanking, and often in vile ways. There usually is one or two who have a measured approach where we only need a little child abuse to control children who make it into the top comments. I have posted within other topics when I have read these comments and it is just beyond belief some of the things that are ssaid, and then on top of that it gets thumbed up several times. We live in a messed up world.
nathanm Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 I have to assume that the hateful brand of sarcasm coming from "sircomespect" is based on experience. He sees negative behavior, feels anger, reads about you advocating for preventative, positive behavior, but ignores that and pastes in his fantasy about you advocating being nice towards negative behavior. It's the same tactic all the time. They must never have seen anything different in their life. That's how I learned perspective in my own early life, my friends' families had very different environments so I knew other alternatives existed. Apparently this never happened for him. Surrounded by shittiness at all times and the only thing that makes sense is more shittiness. It is the easiest possible emotion to feel, I feel it every time I watch a cop video. But the rage has to morph into sadness if you ever want to fix the problems. Nobody ever looks at an upbeat, happy, positive family and thinks "Aww they're so sweet, they must have beat the crap out them at any early age!" The spanking apologists only work from the model of reacting to total assholes with more assholery. Maybe there needs to be a conspiracy. Maybe hired actor parents need to infiltrate the grocery stores of the world, have their 'kids' throw a tantrum and have the parents react rationally and smooth out the problem just so these hate-filled cynics can SEE the alternative for once in their lives.
MysterionMuffles Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Yeah that guy was just normalizing his own abuse. I have no sympathy for whatever shit he had to feel and receive as a child if he hasn't even found a glimpse in his damaged self that could use some improvement. Nobody ever looks at an upbeat, happy, positive family and thinks "Aww they're so sweet, they must have beat the crap out them at any early age!" The spanking apologists only work from the model of reacting to total assholes with more assholery. Maybe there needs to be a conspiracy. Maybe hired actor parents need to infiltrate the grocery stores of the world, have their 'kids' throw a tantrum and have the parents react rationally and smooth out the problem just so these hate-filled cynics can SEE the alternative for once in their lives. That sounds like such a good idea that I don't care how dishonest it is. All entertainment is falsehood anyway so why not bring the stage to the real world?!
Guest darkskyabove Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Maybe hired actor parents need to infiltrate the grocery stores of the world, have their 'kids' throw a tantrum and have the parents react rationally and smooth out the problem just so these hate-filled cynics can SEE the alternative for once in their lives. You are amazing (in a very good way). That is so simple and obvious: lead by example, even if the example is contrived in order to overcome ignorance. It has been done in the form of satire (Monty Python comes to mind), but imagine the reaction in real-time.
STer Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 Maybe hired actor parents need to infiltrate the grocery stores of the world, have their 'kids' throw a tantrum and have the parents react rationally and smooth out the problem just so these hate-filled cynics can SEE the alternative for once in their lives. This is actually a pretty brilliant idea. Something like "health-modeling flashmobs." And if it was done well and recorded and thrown on the web, then people all over the world could see it. Even once it was in the open that it was staged, it would really open up deep discussion. But a more useful discussion than usual as specific modeled behaviors would be debated, not vague theories.
MysterionMuffles Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 would it be unethical for a kid to co-operate in such an act? because yes I know it's acting, but it is also a falsehood.
STer Posted April 19, 2013 Posted April 19, 2013 would it be unethical for a kid to co-operate in such an act? because yes I know it's acting, but it is also a falsehood. You could use stand-ins like they do with stings and things sometimes. Adults that are able to pass as kids. Just an idea.
stigskog Posted April 20, 2013 Author Posted April 20, 2013 Wouldn't they be too old to have them by the time they can work out how to act them. It would look odd having a 9 year old having a tantrum. A 3 year old cant act.It is a great observation, that such people must not have seen enough evidence to convince them that threats and violence isnt the way. Trouble is they probably need a ton of evidence, like they need to see the whole process, because they must think that those with the peaceful kids in supermarkets must be really brutal when no-one is looking. The sarcastic way the commenters on the newspaper thread say things like "oooh my kids are so perfect, they dont have tantrums, they never do anything wrong" makes me laugh because my almost 3 year old is very briliant and doesnt have tantrums and listens to reason and my 1 year old is unbeliveably happy ..... But thats just probably cos i havent been threatening them since they were born.... I just cant imagine how hitting them or being aggressive at them would mess up their minds.
mythness Posted April 20, 2013 Posted April 20, 2013 Nobody ever looks at an upbeat, happy, positive family and thinks "Aww they're so sweet, they must have beat the crap out them at any early age!" The spanking apologists only work from the model of reacting to total assholes with more assholery. Yes and no. While they do no explicitly say it, some do accept that "hard discipline" is what forged such a happy, positive, and polite child. I'm sorry, but once they go back into the privacy of their car and house, it's a different world. The child and the parents act completely different when not in public. The observer's idea of "happy, polite, sweet, cute" is based on overt behavior; not what's going on in the child's mind. Why do I feel confident about this? Well, as usual, I don't want to share information that will reveal who I am (if anonymous people read this), but I can say for a fact that I've seen the "public vs private" interactions between parent and child of many different families. They accidentally "slip" from time to time and give me a sneak peak of what their private family life is like, even in the presence of a non-member (myself). However, in public, everyone is so sweet and happy, and life is wonderful! You would never guess it is a family that spanks, shouts, threatens, ignores each other, mocks, humiliates, throws things, and so on. It makes me sick. It makes my frustrated.
nathanm Posted April 20, 2013 Posted April 20, 2013 I know people are capable of faking it, but it also becomes detectable. If you can read people's eyes and faces and things that are unsaid you get an idea of what really might be happening. My point is just that if you are confident that you are seeing a truthful happy family, it would be crazy to think that they got that way by spanking and threats. I don't know what goes on inside every household of my friends and relatives, but I think I have a good idea of who screwed up and who didn't with their parenting styles. The evidence is all around in the media as well. Any story about some serial killer, all the TV shows of horribly dysfunctional people…you know darn well those people had horrible home environments. It's just as implausible to imagine all the positive, productive, successful, enviable people in the public eye got where they are because their parents acted like drill sargeants.
Nathan T_ Freeman Posted April 20, 2013 Posted April 20, 2013 would it be unethical for a kid to co-operate in such an act? because yes I know it's acting, but it is also a falsehood. You could use stand-ins like they do with stings and things sometimes. Adults that are able to pass as kids. Just an idea. Why bother? My daughter is 4. She could throw a perfect tantrum on demand, because she completely understands what it is. She sees them happen with her 22 month-old brother when he gets frustrated about not being able to communicate. She also completely understands the idea of pretending. She takes her Play-dough and pretends to make cupcakes. She takes her dolls and pretends they're having conversations. She watches Dora the Explorer and pretends that Dora can hear her when she answers. There is no confusion on her part. In fact, she tries with sometimes-distressing frequency to pretend to be sad. She knows how to fake crying when she wants something. We're working through that very practice right now, in fact; negotiating away from the use of false distress to trigger a reaction from me and my wife. (If you're wondering whether we did something to cause this practice, the answer is yes: we had another baby. When he cries it generally is real distress and we address it immediately. She's nothing if not observant.) Based on this conversation, I'm tempted right now to try this idea out. My only reservation is whether *I* would deliver an adequate performance and demonstration for people to want to follow. I have no idea whether I'd be successful in my own role.Maybe I'll ask her about it tomorrow.
STer Posted April 20, 2013 Posted April 20, 2013 would it be unethical for a kid to co-operate in such an act? because yes I know it's acting, but it is also a falsehood. You could use stand-ins like they do with stings and things sometimes. Adults that are able to pass as kids. Just an idea. Why bother? My daughter is 4. She could throw a perfect tantrum on demand, because she completely understands what it is. She sees them happen with her 22 month-old brother when he gets frustrated about not being able to communicate. She also completely understands the idea of pretending. She takes her Play-dough and pretends to make cupcakes. She takes her dolls and pretends they're having conversations. She watches Dora the Explorer and pretends that Dora can hear her when she answers. There is no confusion on her part. In fact, she tries with sometimes-distressing frequency to pretend to be sad. She knows how to fake crying when she wants something. We're working through that very practice right now, in fact; negotiating away from the use of false distress to trigger a reaction from me and my wife. (If you're wondering whether we did something to cause this practice, the answer is yes: we had another baby. When he cries it generally is real distress and we address it immediately. She's nothing if not observant.) Based on this conversation, I'm tempted right now to try this idea out. My only reservation is whether *I* would deliver an adequate performance and demonstration for people to want to follow. I have no idea whether I'd be successful in my own role.Maybe I'll ask her about it tomorrow. The question wasn't whether a child could do it. The question was whether it would be moral to tell a child to do it for the benefit of some audience of other people.
stigskog Posted April 21, 2013 Author Posted April 21, 2013 Wow , Nathan, you reminded me what exciting times there are to come in the next few years with my kids.STer - I don't know if it is moral. It is lying, but sometimes lying is moral.. for example if a psychopath with a chainsaw asks where your sister is because he wants to chop her up, it would be ok to lie . So (and i am assuming a perfect outcome to the scenario), is it equivalent ? or is it only moral if honesty was already tried but failed ... however you wouldnt be honet with the chainsaw guy.
Nathan T_ Freeman Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Why bother? My daughter is 4. She could throw a perfect tantrum on demand, because she completely understands what it is. She sees them happen with her 22 month-old brother when he gets frustrated about not being able to communicate. She also completely understands the idea of pretending. She takes her Play-dough and pretends to make cupcakes. She takes her dolls and pretends they're having conversations. She watches Dora the Explorer and pretends that Dora can hear her when she answers. There is no confusion on her part. In fact, she tries with sometimes-distressing frequency to pretend to be sad. She knows how to fake crying when she wants something. We're working through that very practice right now, in fact; negotiating away from the use of false distress to trigger a reaction from me and my wife. (If you're wondering whether we did something to cause this practice, the answer is yes: we had another baby. When he cries it generally is real distress and we address it immediately. She's nothing if not observant.) Based on this conversation, I'm tempted right now to try this idea out. My only reservation is whether *I* would deliver an adequate performance and demonstration for people to want to follow. I have no idea whether I'd be successful in my own role.Maybe I'll ask her about it tomorrow. The question wasn't whether a child could do it. The question was whether it would be moral to tell a child to do it for the benefit of some audience of other people. Oh, I forgot who I was talking to. Sorry.
STer Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Wow , Nathan, you reminded me what exciting times there are to come in the next few years with my kids.STer - I don't know if it is moral. It is lying, but sometimes lying is moral.. for example if a psychopath with a chainsaw asks where your sister is because he wants to chop her up, it would be ok to lie . So (and i am assuming a perfect outcome to the scenario), is it equivalent ? or is it only moral if honesty was already tried but failed ... however you wouldnt be honet with the chainsaw guy. I think the moral question here is more difficult. It's one thing for an adult to decide that in a given situation a lie is the more moral choice. But to instruct your children to partake in it adds another level of complexity. Either way I was just pointing out that Nathan's response didn't really address what the person he was responding to had asked.
STer Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Why bother? My daughter is 4. She could throw a perfect tantrum on demand, because she completely understands what it is. She sees them happen with her 22 month-old brother when he gets frustrated about not being able to communicate. She also completely understands the idea of pretending. She takes her Play-dough and pretends to make cupcakes. She takes her dolls and pretends they're having conversations. She watches Dora the Explorer and pretends that Dora can hear her when she answers. There is no confusion on her part. In fact, she tries with sometimes-distressing frequency to pretend to be sad. She knows how to fake crying when she wants something. We're working through that very practice right now, in fact; negotiating away from the use of false distress to trigger a reaction from me and my wife. (If you're wondering whether we did something to cause this practice, the answer is yes: we had another baby. When he cries it generally is real distress and we address it immediately. She's nothing if not observant.) Based on this conversation, I'm tempted right now to try this idea out. My only reservation is whether *I* would deliver an adequate performance and demonstration for people to want to follow. I have no idea whether I'd be successful in my own role.Maybe I'll ask her about it tomorrow. The question wasn't whether a child could do it. The question was whether it would be moral to tell a child to do it for the benefit of some audience of other people. Oh, I forgot who I was talking to. Sorry. Well actually you forgot who I was talking to You responded to my response to Morse Code Stutters. My response was to his question about the morality of it when he asked: would it be unethical for a kid to co-operate in such an act? because yes I know it's acting, but it is also a falsehood.
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