Why did the Soviet Union really collapse?

[PatrickC]

Actually the socialist economic model crushed the USSR...they ran out of money!

 

It's fascinating to realise just how much collaboration went on between the USSR and the USA. The communists have seemingly won idelogicaly at least, given how leftist people are these days. Partially thanks to all those socialists in power from the 30's - 90's in the West, that were Soviet sympathisers. That said, it could arguably be made that even Churchill himself was a sympathiser, given the amount of money he shovelled into their economy. The only significant difference today of the socialists of the SU, was that they had to stop murdering their own people, except foreigners overseas of course.

 

It always struck me as interesting that there was never any kind of review or trial of the Soviet system and it's participants, after it's collapse (like Nuremberg). But I think too many western politicos with far too much grease on their hands never wanted that kind of scrutiny.

[Existing Alternatives]

I have no idea where I saw this link some months ago, but it was a brief clip from an older looking video interview with Gorbachev, speaking in Russian, subtitled in English.  His remark was something like "Everyone knows it was Chernobyl that collapsed the Soviet Union." I have no other context, and assume the subtitle was legit.  I assume that everything else mentioned here also collapsed the USSR, and maybe Chernobyl was the very large log that broke the camel's back.  It will be sadly interesting to see what Fukushima ultimately does to Japan.

 

That sounds silly. Especially, given the five-year time gap between the two events. Gorbachev is currently heavily criticized in Russia for destroying the “greatest country that ever was,” so he would blame anything rather than take the heat. It’s funny how inefficient economic model, dilapidated infrastructure, growing negative popular sentiment, empty government coffers, huge global empire of propped-up governments, and prolong foreign war in Afghanistan could not possibly be it.

 

It always struck me as interesting that there was never any kind of review or trial of the Soviet system and it's participants, after it's collapse (like Nuremberg). But I think too many western politicos with far too much grease on their hands never wanted that kind of scrutiny.

 

At some point newly independent Russian government considered releasing the lists of official KGB snoops and informants. But, at the last minute, they pulled the plug on that, seeing how it contained over 20% of population and fearing nationwide violent reprisals.

 

Any other crimes that the government did own up to happened way too long ago (around WWII) and many perpetrators are dead by now… Even if they weren’t, who would persecute them? The very people who came to power on their coattails?

[PatrickC]

At some point newly independent Russian government considered releasing the lists of official KGB snoops and informants. But, at the last minute, they pulled the plug on that, seeing how it contained over 20% of population and fearing nationwide violent reprisals.

 

Any other crimes that the government did own up to happened way too long ago (around WWII) and many perpetrators are dead by now… Even if they weren’t, who would persecute them? The very people who came to power on their coattails?

 

Yes, well that's a pragmatic view of course. And the Russians will always have their supposedly 'reasonable' excuses too.. But there is no doubting that many of the political elite in the West of more recent years (who were still living), that had no interest in a review of the Soviet past. Lest they be implicated themselves in any crimes or at the very least looking like Soviet collaborators or sympathisers.

[Existing Alternatives]

Yes, well that's a pragmatic view of course. And the Russians will always have their supposedly 'reasonable' excuses too.. But there is no doubting that many of the political elite in the West of more recent years (who were still living), that had no interest in a review of the Soviet past. Lest they be implicated themselves in any crimes or at the very least looking like Soviet collaborators or sympathisers.

 

Of course. In Nuremberg there were clear winners and losers. Despite the fact that both sides committed horrendous crimes, only criminals on the losing side was prosecuted.

[OBBNNOXIO]

The comparison to the Nazi war trials after WW II doesn't really apply to the USSR. There was no war that brought down the USSR. Complete and total state domination brought down the USSR. China almost went the same way. The Chinese communist Government saved their bacon with rapid, sweeping economic reforms.

 

Stefan described it better than I ever could; "Communism is Socialism with a gun, these are just 2 different ways of achieving the same goal. Communism forces socialism, Socialism is a long bureaucratic process perpetrated (in the west) by puppets/stage actors posing as supposed political leaders. These stage actors tell people their virtues and morality and pass laws imposing the complete opposite". In the end the goal is the same complete and total control of everything for less than .0001% of the population(s).

 

Communism/socialism is a newer way for Kings and Queens to rein over their kingdoms. The goal hasn't changed in 1000's of years. Humanity has grown up in many ways with education and technology. The ones that want to rule everything need a more grown up way to implement their rein. Socialism (and its more violent implementation method Communism) are statist ideals compared to the monarchies that ruled Europe for a few millennia.

 

Nothing has changed and its a notable mention; The European monarchs of Ancient Europe are still there, still stinking rich, still major property owners, major share holders of huge corporations and yes they still influence policy. The states have grown as has the world population. In turn statist rulers have grown in numbers. The ancient monarchs aren't the only rulers anymore but they're still rulers.

 

Zeitgeist is bullshit statist propaganda even if its creators are unaware of this fact. Trying to generate support for utopia they lost sight and/or were completely unaware. What they're proposing is exactly what's destroying cultures and countries around the world...as they themselves have made a point of in every single propaganda movie they've released.

 

Same shit different pile, same message different media outlet, selling same ideas with a different salesman.  

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Not a scholar on the subject, I've gone through a few sources regarding Russia (the landmass and civilization on it, not the "nation") and the strange case of the USSR. From what I've been able to garner, the communist concept was a hoax from the beginning to brutally capture power. The concept in and of itself had absolutely no means of producing wealth, and this was made exponentially worse by the fact that the outset of the USSR was marked by killing anyone and everyone who was capable of producing wealth. What was leftover was simply stolen by the small percentage of higher-ups in the same spirit of pre-communist Russia, and the majority of infrastructure was constructed with slave labor via gulag work camps, which estimates say liquidated an amount of people within the 40-50 million range.

 

Whacked-out, ridiculous, set-up to fail, and knowingly in-no-way capable of producing wealth from its outset due to bogus ideology that didn't even remotely reflect reality, the USSR simply lived off of handouts from monopolistic Western financial institutions from the get-go. Being that it was so obvious from the beginning that such a system couldn't produce anything, it was rammed into place because it was known that a police state is more likely to pay the bills -- it's very easy to collect everyone's stuff when "private property doesn't exist". Russia in particular was eyeballed by Western finance because of the awe-inspiring amount of resources available. A quick glance at a world map should give a vague idea of this.

 

To make matters worse, Russian civilization was borne from a mix of Slavs ("slaves") being invaded from the north which created a foundation consisting of a 2-class system, i.e. you're either in the club or you're not. This separation was further entrenched when the orthodox Christianity made its way through the country. While present in all religions, orthodox Christianity has a particularly heavy emphasis on the fact that your rulers are chosen by God and to disobey your rulers would be to disobey God.  This on top of horrendous child-raising practices (example: even today Russian babies are taken out to frozen rivers and dipped into the water through a crack made in the ice as some sort of "blessing") produced a population which seems to have almost entirely lacked empathy, which is imperative in creating a police state where even the lowest-ranked dog in a uniform is willing to devour someone for the slightest bit of personal gain. This was the perfect petri dish for Lenins and Trotskys funded by bankers to bait the populace with bullshit, propaganda, and absolute terror while creating a system of parasites where all transfers of wealth lead to the top. Basically, it was the perfect storm for creating hell on earth, and a perfect enemy of the western world (in the neoconservative sense of things).

 

As for what caused the USSR to collapse? Most of my research has focused on the starting side of the USSR. That being the case, I could conjecture that the collapse was due to the idea being a horrible joke to begin with. I think Alan Chapman pretty much nailed it on the head at the beginning of this thread:

 

 

 

The answer is that they did not have private property which resulted in a lack of market prices to coordinate production.

 

And to paraphrase Carroll Quigley; communist countries could only exist by imitating more free ones. Maybe the "more free" countries realized it wasn't worth it anymore to pump money and resources into the black hole of hell, misery, and terror and decided to let up. Those in charge, as mentioned before in the thread, of course retaining their positions in essence.

 

To back up what I just wrote, or at least give an idea where the I got the information, the following are the most important sources that immediately come to my mind:

 

• Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time, by Carroll Quigley [book: Amazon, Free PDF] (Goes over briefly the evolution of civilizations and in depth with: the foundation of Russian civilization, Russia leading up to 1917, Russia after 1917, and communist "support" in the West.)
• Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, by Antony Sutton [book: Amazon] (The title says it all.)
• The Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn [book: Amazon, Audiobook: ThePirateBay] (For an up-close an personal look of what was going on inside the belly of the beast. I'm still only about a third of the way through this one.)
• Peace Revolution Podcast 071: The Law of Identity vs. the Monopoly of Force [Podcast: link] (includes Gary Allen's "None Dare Call It Conspiracy")
• Peace Revolution Podcast 059: The Cult of Scientific Management / How the Ruling Elite Forms the Collective [Podcast: link] (includes interviews with Eustace Mullins)
• The Evolution of Civilizations, by Carroll Quigley [book: Amazon] (Doesn't include Russian civilization specifically, but will give a good insight as to why any civilization might fail.)
• The History of War in Child Abuse, by Lloyd Demaus [book: psychohistory.com, Audiobook by Stef: Freedomainradio, FullZipFolder] (To get an idea of the societal effects of child abuse and lack of empathy, plus there are some mentions about Russia in particular)
• 20th Century Democide, by R.J. Rummel [Webpage: link] (Just to get some basic facts on the USSR in the broad scope of death and misery)
• New Age Bullshit and the Suppression of the Sacred Masculine, by Mark Passio [Video: youtube, Podcast: PeaceRevolutionPodcast074] (Passio doesn't talk about Russia specifically, but the content he goes over talks about exactly what a tyranny requires in the minds of its slaves in order to control them.)

Also I've heard other books by Antony Sutton are great for this topic, specifically The Best Enemy Money Can Buy [Amazon].

 

Hope this helps and others can find it useful.

-Dylan

[OBBNNOXIO]

Essentially the USSR is now Russia. Russia is still a huge state.

 

BTW its communist doctrine to eliminate the top 20% (top academics, businesses and their owners, artists etc.) of a population in order to bring in communism.

 

Reading Quigley is fine and dandy but its a waste is time. Look at the communist defectors and the statements they made to Western media after they got away.

 

Essentially the country/states i.e. tax farms, are Marxist. They say whatever they want to the media (mainstream media gobbles it up) and then turn around and enact communist laws....constantly.

 

Really great grand post Dylan...but you're wasting people's time. All the stuff you quoted above is old news. The question was essentially did USSR really disappear? The answer is no.

[King David]

I find it funny that nobody has offered that the stagnation they began to realize was also a product of poor distribution chains.  From roads, to trains, to trucks, and machinery, they were always lacking in total distribution capacity.  Even when they were successful at manufacturing or producing what was desired, the products often never even made it to the markets of demand.  Entire crops would spoil at rail yards, fresh produce was almost unheard of in urban centers.  Almost nothing highlights the failings of socialism as well as transportation demands.

 

Say what you will about fossil fuels, truckers unions, and western capitalism, it is the trucks of the west that keep the economy at its pace and out did the USSR.

 

Blue jeans, James Dean, Marlon Brando, and Marilyn helped with their parts as well.

 

KD

[P. Mason]

Counter Economics played a huge part in the collapse. Basically the black market made teh government obsolete and useless. Same will happen in the US. In fact we should encourage bypassing as many gov programs as possible.

[OBBNNOXIO]

Labour Unions are a product of the state, and they follow a Marxist economic model. Unions are socialist organizations that support violence, and take money (taxes = union dues) from people just like governments. They do the same thing with Union pension funds and Union taxes as a government do with income taxes etc...