We are all One

[Mishelle]

Dear Stephan and all,

I'd love to hear your views and have a discussion on the ever-present "New Age" ideal of "we are all One" that is closely related to "love your enemies".  While I understand the motivation behind this is peaceful and well-intentioned it seems to me it further feeds a tyrannical system.  I can feel empathy for those perpetrating abuse, knowing of their suffering, but why must I identify with them as if they are me?  Or as if somehow by loving them they will change from that love? I hope you'll help me see what I am missing here!

[Wesley]

I think I have similar ideas and concerns as you.

Obviously, I do not know why, but my guess would be that in their relationships currently, "loving" someone does cover up what they did wrong. So their parents hurt and abused them in some way and continue to into adulthood, but they deserve love, and thus they are good. It is the idea of getting everyone to become you or your family, and thus they acquire the properties of being morally good no matter what evils may be (or have been) perpetrated.

I will see if anyone else has a better theory.

[TheRobin]

I don't think you're missing anything here.The terms and concepts used in those claims are completely contradictory, making the claims meaningless. So all they do is try to work with the emotional connotation to get people to behave in ways they normally wouldn't and/or that is not in their best interest.

[David L]

Hi Mishelle,

Great topic, and it's a synchronicity for me, as I was just ruminating over this very subject in a few books, and then I come across your post !   Well, if that's not a possible indication of the oneness of human consciousness, then I don't know what could be. Smiles.

For what it's worth, I experience these synchronicities now every day, and usually many a day. LIke the "perfect timing" you experienced in your other post with regard to the Thrive movement, I'm guessing you will agree there's something quite alluring about the idea that We Are All One. 

By the way, just so that you're aware, here's a previous thread started a while back on this forum related to the Thrive documentary...

http://board.freedomainradio.com/forums/p/33221/291010.aspx#291010

 

David

PS: The concept that We Are All One is actually quite ancient, going back at least to the Gnostics, if not much earlier.

[Mishelle]

David, I think we must be reading the same books!  I've had some clarity around this in recent days, because what I was running up against is what felt to me like a real conflict between ethics and spirituality.  If I must "identify as One" with the Tyrant, am I not then undermining my own conscious evolution, and frankly evolutionary superiority? And so I would go around and around with this, trying to understand what exactly the Gnostics meant.  Then it hit me--we evolve as One.  So, without the conscious evolution of the Tyrant society can never move forward, and so we get stuck and have to go back to the beginnings again and again.  Evolution happens in bio-psycho-social waves and if that is being blocked by any powerful force ultimately no one really evolves.

That's what I got so far, what do you think?!

And yes, the syncronicity in my life at the moment is truly blowing my mind [] Hoping it keeps on

cheers

Mishelle

[Mishelle]

Thanks for your reply The Robin,

 That was exactly the feeling I was getting, that these folks are trying to sell books and build empires and so they don't want to say anything folks don't want to hear -- like "The Secret" crap.  I still believe there's A LOT of truth to that, but still, there's ancient wisdom there, otherwise it would not be so appealing!

 

cheers

Mishelle

 

[Mishelle]

Hi Snipes,

I'm glad you took this to the personal level, we can't skip over that and look only at the big picture. This makes a lot of sense, forgiveness is certainly in all our best interests ultimately.  And still, this is routinely abused--just look at the Clintons--scandal after scandal since Arkansas, and folks just forgive and forget and now want her in the White House. It's sheer insanity!

[JamesP]

Stef's talked about forgiveness several times, and it seems that most people use it as a euphemistic code word to invoke your Stockholm Syndrome.  Genuine forgiveness is evoked within you by the other person's actions, not willed.

It's important for us to accept others for what they are by what they do, but it is enabling corruption to say that we forgive them when nothing has happened in reality to generate that experience.

[David L]

 

David, I think we must be reading the same books!  I've had some clarity around this in recent days, because what I was running up against is what felt to me like a real conflict between ethics and spirituality.  If I must "identify as One" with the Tyrant, am I not then undermining my own conscious evolution, and frankly evolutionary superiority? And so I would go around and around with this, trying to understand what exactly the Gnostics meant.  Then it hit me--we evolve as One.  So, without the conscious evolution of the Tyrant society can never move forward, and so we get stuck and have to go back to the beginnings again and again.  Evolution happens in bio-psycho-social waves and if that is being blocked by any powerful force ultimately no one really evolves. That's what I got so far, what do you think?!

 

 

Hi Mishelle,

Yes, we never seem to get beyond the tyrant-victim archetype, because we never consciously realize the Principle of Oneness. But when we realize our inherent inseparability from each other, we naturally do not aggress against others, for to do so is to consciously aggress against our own well being. And this is impossible to do when we are truly conscious.

This is where empathy comes in. And compassion.

People who aggress against others know not what they do to themselves at that moment. They are unconscious of their own inner self-violation. Therefore, we can have compassion for them in that sense. It is like someone who is sleepwalking while banging up their bodies by colliding with all kinds of things that injure them. But once they wake up inwardly and realize they are inseparable from the ones they aggress against, they will also tap into their deeper, truer nature, which is based in a profound conscious goodness which never does harm.

When we identify with the goodness inherent in all beings, whether they are conscious of it or not, it doesn't mean we identify with their actions when they are evil. It simply means we abide in the goodness which they are not yet conscious of themselves, and therefore unfortunately are not expressing at the moment. This is compassion on our part, and it makes us victimless to the evils that others may try to inflict upon us in their psychic sleepwalking. It's kind of like a sober person witnessing a drunkard do all kinds of foolish things to himself and others. One's own sobriety keeps one safe, while able to feel compassion for the soul who knows not what he does to himself and others who are also drunk.

This is how I'm seeing it anyway. What do you say?

David

[STer]

There is a stark division within humanity between those with the capacity for empathy and those without (or with very reduced capacity). I believe this idea of us all being one is often used as a way for victims of abuse to excuse abusers. They are basically saying that there is no difference between the abuser and the victim. But this is increasingly known to be simply incorrect. Many abusers have significant differences in brain and genetics from other people.

This view is also tied into the flawed notion that an abusive person will stop doing harm if we only love them enough. In fact, many abusers are exploiters and will simply manipulate those that attempt to love them (if by love we mean appeasement and excessive kindness.)

One other potential reason for this view is to try to convince the abusers themselves that, since they are one with their victims, they should stop hurting them. However, many abusers are quite aware that they are deeply different from their victims and view kind, loving people as fools.

I think it would serve humanity much more to educate about the significant differences in conscience that exist among humans rather than teach that we are all one as if to say these important and consequential differences do not exist.

I find the New Age philosophies very misleading and actually quite helpful in allowing abusers and exploiters to continue unchecked.

[Stephen C]

It would be cool if people advocating "we are all one" transfered their savings and earnings to my bank account.

[STer]

 

It would be cool if people advocating "we are all one" transfered their savings and earnings to my bank account.

 

Brilliant point.

[Stephen C]

 

 

It would be cool if people advocating "we are all one" transfered their savings and earnings to my bank account.

 

Brilliant point.

 

Point? No seriously, how do I get that to go down? I like money.

Thank you.  

[STer]

 

 

 

It would be cool if people advocating "we are all one" transfered their savings and earnings to my bank account.

 

Brilliant point.

 

Point? No seriously, how do I get that to go down? I like money.

Thank you.  

 

Great point that their real belief in that philosophy would be displayed by their willingness to put their money where their mouth is.

As for making that happen, good luck.

[David L]

What's really cool is to realize your Oneness with Life so you're not a slave to money anymore. :-)

[Stephen C]

 

 

 

 

It would be cool if people advocating "we are all one" transfered their savings and earnings to my bank account.

 

Brilliant point.

 

Point? No seriously, how do I get that to go down? I like money.

Thank you.  

 

Great point that their real belief in that philosophy would be displayed by their willingness to put their money where their mouth is.

As for making that happen, good luck.

 

Heh, thanks. I'd probably find the answer by studying religion. 

[David L]

More thoughts along this line...

Playing the Separation Game, that is the "Let's Pretend" game that we are NOT all one, is a LOT of work.

Question:  How much easier would it be on ourselves if we stopped pretending that we are all fundamentally separate and apart from each other and realized that yes, we really do all breathe the same air, and none of us are born out of thin air, we are born out of something called the human species, which itself has arisen out of the even larger matrix of biological planetary life itself.

Comments?

 

 

[Mishelle]

Hi STer,

Really appreciate this reply, supports the "feeling" I get when I hear this rhetoric of all being One.  I've been thinking about it all week, and while intellectually I can wrap my head around the desire for folks to believe in our Oneness, I get an immediate body reaction that screams NO!  I've actually recently heard from one New Age teacher that we should love others even when they are causing us suffering--whaaaaa?!  He goes on with this BS to the degree he's saying the rape victim should be thankful for the experience of rape because it further enlightened her/him!  Honestly, makes my stomach turn!

thanks & cheers

Mishelle

 

[David L]

Hi Mischelle,

Regarding the idea that we are all one (which you now seem to disagree with??), I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it. Which means, for starters, you must cease to breathe any air outside of your own physical body (which up to this point has been nurtured, maintained and sustained by said planet).

Up for the challenge?

:-)

[Ruben Zandstra]

 

 I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it.

 

Why challenge anyone if you actually agree with yourself?

[David L]

 

 

 I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it.

 

Why challenge anyone if you actually agree with yourself?

 

Because agreeing with yourself isn't challenging  :-)

 

 

[STer]

 

Hi STer,

Really appreciate this reply, supports the "feeling" I get when I hear this rhetoric of all being One.  I've been thinking about it all week, and while intellectually I can wrap my head around the desire for folks to believe in our Oneness, I get an immediate body reaction that screams NO!  I've actually recently heard from one New Age teacher that we should love others even when they are causing us suffering--whaaaaa?!  He goes on with this BS to the degree he's saying the rape victim should be thankful for the experience of rape because it further enlightened her/him!  Honestly, makes my stomach turn!

thanks & cheers

Mishelle

 

 

MIshelle,

It depends what we mean by love. If by love it means we wish the best for the person, then fine. I see no problem, even in the case of someone harming you, wishing the best for them. But the question that arises is why it isn't just as important to love yourself. And that isn't just a selfish thing either. You are important to others in your family and community. So my question for this New Age teacher would be why it isn't just as important to love yourself which would then require you to stand up for and protect yourself. Also, standing up to the person harming you could enlighten them just as much as them harming you can enlighten you.

This logic isn't so terrible when it's applied in all directions. But when someone applies it only or almost always to encourage love from the victim to the abuser and conspicuously fails to put as much effort into encouraging it in the other direction, you know something is off.

[STer]

 

Hi Mischelle,

Regarding the idea that we are all one (which you now seem to disagree with??), I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it. Which means, for starters, you must cease to breathe any air outside of your own physical body (which up to this point has been nurtured, maintained and sustained by said planet).

Up for the challenge?

:-)

 

What does "We are one" even mean? In some ways we are all connected and in other we are separate. That balance of interconnectedness and separation is crucial. To simply say "we are one" ignores all the ways there is space between us, and that space underlies the diversity that is so crucial to resilience. We rely on both connection and space to survive and thrive. It is unhealthy to lose sight of either one.

[STer]

 

Hi Mischelle,

Regarding the idea that we are all one (which you now seem to disagree with??), I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it. 

 

That is a faulty test. The inability to live in complete isolation doesn't prove we are "all one." It just proves that to some degree, we rely on others. You can see how faulty this proposed test is by looking at the opposite test. What if I said that I challenge you to live complete enmeshed 24/7 with everyone else on the planet with absolutely no space or privacy whatsoever. I bet you can't do that either. In fact I know you can't. You'd be physically crushed, not to even go into the emotional torment. Does that prove we are totally separate with no connection at all?

This is all-or-nothing thinking and is faulty. We can neither live with total enmeshment or complete separation. We live in the balance in between.

[Alan C.]

[view:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsTQ1cM-Hpg:640:390]

[Pepin]

Personally, I think when people say this and really believe it, that they are describing a state of consciousness they have experienced and claiming that it is true. I have had many odd sorts of states of consciousness, including the cliché "everything is connected" one, but I see these as just different and altered states of consciousness. People who meditate are controlling and entering altered conscious states, some of which include projection onto objects such as: a flame, people, animals, and the universe. 

Certain fields of psychology from what I understand seem to claim that these states of consciousness were the result of evolutionary processes, that they did perform a role at some point in the past, and now they tend either be dormant or expressed in unconscious manners.

This is all to say that I think there are two parts to this. The feeling: which I don't think there is anything wrong or irrational in experiencing, and the claim that the feeling describes something objective: which is irrational.

[STer]

 

Personally, I think when people say this and really believe it, that they are describing a state of consciousness they have experienced and claiming that it is true. I have had many odd sorts of states of consciousness, including the cliché "everything is connected" one, but I see these as just different and altered states of consciousness. People who meditate are controlling and entering altered conscious states, some of which include projection onto objects such as: a flame, people, animals, and the universe. 

Certain fields of psychology from what I understand seem to claim that these states of consciousness were the result of evolutionary processes, that they did perform a role at some point in the past, and now they tend either be dormant or expressed in unconscious manners.

This is all to say that I think there are two parts to this. The feeling: which I don't think there is anything wrong or irrational in experiencing, and the claim that the feeling describes something objective: which is irrational.

 

I agree. And if the feelings alone were a sufficient basis on which to proclaim what is objectively true, then the feelings of those who feel separate or disconnected would have to be given weight, as well. So we're back to epistemology and why I don't believe that simply feeling something is enough to support truth claims (other than the truth that you are feeling something).

[David L]

 

 

 

What does "We are one" even mean? In some ways we are all connected and in other we are separate. That balance of interconnectedness and separation is crucial. To simply say "we are one" ignores all the ways there is space between us, and that space underlies the diversity that is so crucial to resilience. We rely on both connection and space to survive and thrive. It is unhealthy to lose sight of either one.

 

Oneness and separation obviously cannot co-exist together, but oneness and the APPEARANCE of separation can.

At first glance It APPEARS like my body is separate and apart from the world, but a closer examination reveals it is not separate. It is made up of the world, just like the wave of an ocean is made up of the ocean.

 

[STer]

 

 

 

 

What does "We are one" even mean? In some ways we are all connected and in other we are separate. That balance of interconnectedness and separation is crucial. To simply say "we are one" ignores all the ways there is space between us, and that space underlies the diversity that is so crucial to resilience. We rely on both connection and space to survive and thrive. It is unhealthy to lose sight of either one.

 

Oneness and separation obviously cannot co-exist together, but oneness and the APPEARANCE of separation can.

At first glance It APPEARS like my body is separate and apart from the world, but a closer examination reveals it is not separate. It is made up of the world, just like the wave of an ocean is made up of the ocean.

 

 

Oneness and separation certainly can co-exist because systems exist at different levels. A variety of parts work together to create a unified whole at one level. And yet underneath they are separate parts. Your kidney is a working system. Yet it is made up of many cells that each are separate. And yet each cell is a working system made up of parts and so on.

Check out the concept of a "holon." This term refers to something which is both a whole in itself, as well as a part of a larger whole at the same time.

This aspect of things being holons is fundamental to how systems work. And the concept of "emergent properties" is also key here because it shows us that each system level can have characteristics as a whole that we couldn't have predicted from any of its parts.

[STer]

If interested here is the wikipedia page about the holon concept and another page about holons on a site named after the concept.

[David L]

 

Oneness and separation certainly can co-exist because systems exist at different levels.

 

Hi there. Different does not mean separate (although it can SEEM separate). The Oneness differentiates Itself into myriad levels, or holons of order, which express the inherent order of the unmanifest Oneness. I'm guessing you are familiar with Ken Wilber's work? 

[STer]

 

 

Oneness and separation certainly can co-exist because systems exist at different levels.

 

Hi there. Different does not mean separate (although it can SEEM separate). The Oneness differentiates Itself into myriad levels, or holons of order, which express the inherent order of the unmanifest Oneness. I'm guessing you are familiar with Ken Wilber's work? 

 

I think the problem is you're trying to make separateness all or nothing. There are degrees of separateness. Two things can overlap 20% or 50% or 75%. Nothing in the universe is 100% separate, that is true. Nor are things in the universe 100% overlapping. They are both connected and have space. You are trying to call any amount of overlap between two things "being One." "Being One" is too extreme a phrase to express something much more nuanced like "All things, to some degree or another, are connected." Those two ideas should not be conflated.

Wilber is actually mentioned a few times on the Holon wikipedia page as he has expressed some views on this.

[Ruben Zandstra]

 

 

 

 I'd challenge you to try to live in complete isolation from the planet, and see if you can do it.

 

Why challenge anyone if you actually agree with yourself?

 

Because agreeing with yourself isn't challenging  :-) 

 

So you are proposing deadly challenges to people not to make any point in particular, it's just to break with the boredom of actually being one?

[David L]

There is nothing boring about the realization of Oneness, which lies beyond mere agreement. NOTHING is more exciting. Challenging the sense of separation, rather than just sleepwalking in it, is the way to awaken from the dream. This world is not at all what it appears to be. In the same way we previously thought it was flat, we presently think it is outside of us.

[David L]

 

I think the problem is you're trying to make separateness all or nothing. There are degrees of separateness.

 

I would say there are degrees of a SENSE of separation, without there being any actual separation in reality. I know that's a very challenging position to take from the point of view of the body and the five physical senses, but I stand by it.