joaor Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 I do not agree with the techniques my wife is using to raise my 3yo son but currently I am the only one that is earning a living. In the last 2 years I have gone from minarchist to anarchist. My wife still sees validity in the state and religion. My main goal is to be able to talk to someone that has gone through the same thing. It is easy to deal with the incompatbiliy but it is tough to watch my son being raised by a tyrant. Is it better to divorce or stick with the relationship? I know it is going to be tough to answer but there may be options that I have not explored. I appreciate all of you.
pretzelogik Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 I remember some of Stef's podcasts where he mentions his preference for a statist who is a peaceful parent over an anarchist who parents by domination. My anarchism caused a lot of trouble in my marriage initially, but I realized the state was really a metaphor for the win/lose paradigm that we were using to conduct our relationship (a reflection of our childhoods). As we learned to negotiate the state became less of an issue. Perhaps if your son was raised peacefully, the isse of the state would be less bothersome. A question to ask would be: what the chances of him being raised peacefully would be if you were not in the picture? When you say talk to someone, are you referring to a new mate? There are a few hangouts and groups that you can connect with over the net that are voluntarist that would give you an avenue of expression and serve as a resource for empathy. I have found them to be very encouraging. Our road has been very turbulent, but we worked it out. I am sure it is difficult to see your son raised in a tyrranical way, I don;t have any solutions for limiting his exposure to this other that making the tyrant aware of the fact that there are alternatives and she is likely inflicting this on him as a result of her trauma, rather than for his benefit.
joaor Posted May 26, 2013 Author Posted May 26, 2013 I guess my problem with statists in general is there idea of peace is not peace. My wife has had her fifteen year old reject her and I know she wants to keep my 3 year old under control as long as she can. Yes I have to be around to show him the truth is to never agress against another unless in self-defense. If it was peaceful I would be okay with peaceful. I keep hearing my wife say that she wants appreciation from him. My son owes her nothing. This is too one sided so I will stop with the rant. I try to negotiate but I don't want to argue in front of my son. His name is Josiah. I don't want a new mate to talk to; I want a group that is voluntaryist. There are meetups but none that I have found yet. She does have her baggage and I have my baggage but how do we discern who's baggage is worse? I hear people complain about shit all day that is meaningless in my mind. While I complain about freedom all of the time. To me self-ownership is supreme. This is going off on a tangent but hopefully you get the point. My goal is never make my baggage an issue to associate with someone. I have principles that I use to help me choose who I associate with. Thanks for the reply. I definitely need to work on my negotiating skills.
pretzelogik Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Why don't you PM me and I will have you added to some of the circles that have regular discussions about voluntarism and non-violent communication. It's very refreshing to have this conversation with like-minded people. I have yet to meet one in person, though. Mark Twain said: "I have had a lot of problems in my life, most of which never happened". Which is to say that freedom (as I am struggling to understand) is in large part being free in ones own mind. I have ghosts that tie me down far more that the state or my significant other ever could. Sometimes it seems easier to focus on the things that are farther away because the inner work can be the most challenging.
JamesP Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 It would be incredibly healthy for your son to witness negotiation, but not to witness fighting. It would also be quite unhealthy for your son to experience his parents divorcing. I can't tell you what I think you ought to do because I don't know you or your wife, but it's your son's welfare that matters here. What would be best for him is for his parents to negotiate and to not split. It's also not about the abstracts, not really. Have you and your wife discussed your respective childhoods? Have either of you spent any time in counseling, separate or together? There are many, many ways to approach this issue that I would say should be pursued before resorting to divorce.
Existing Alternatives Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Sometimes we could be unfair to our loved ones: it could be very hard to catch up with our fast-evolving sense of good and bad. Today you are for small government, tomorrow you are for none, what gives? “What!? You never read Ayn Rand!? How dare you step into my parlor!” But the more important point here is prevalence of violence in your child’s upbringing. I would suggest to progress with baby steps: can you agree that physical violence against a child is bad? Next step could be: should physical violence be completely banned in the family? And, so forth. At the end of the day, our ideas are not counter-intuitive, but rather counter-cultural and could take some time and logic to convey. Another important question you should consider is whether or not the relationship between you two (husband-wife) is worth saving. If all you disagree on is how to raise your child, that’s not the end of the world. At the same time, divorce is always an option. While it could be negative experience for a kid, you can always make an argument that two happy families are better than an unhappy one. Yet another, perhaps the most extreme option you have is “disownership.” Now, I don’t particularly like or advocate it, but Harry Browne would tell us that clearly defining which parent is in charge of the child (may or may not be you) could remove some of the problems you are having. All the best!
tasmlab Posted May 28, 2013 Posted May 28, 2013 Hi Joaor, Goodness man, do you LOVE her? If you are looking to get divorced because of this hobby we call anarchism, than maybe your heart isn't into to it to begin with. I'm so bonkers in love with my wife of 15 years that I couldn't even imagine typing what you did. Now I love my three kids too. How tyrannical is she being? Is she just giving him bad ideas about god and the state or is she hitting him? The former is easily survived (most of us went through it) and you'll be super-ahead of the curve in reversing those ideas. Your kid will be a mental giant if you can step in early and often. If she's physically abusive then you have something to work out! And while I bet Stef could (or maybe wouldn't) make a compelling case that abuse and the acceptance of state/religion could be tightly causal, you can certainly treat them as separate problems. So I think I just gave you no advice, but that you are even bringing up divorce is probably an indication that you want to do it. (Here's my Junior Varsity Psych advice based on a 200 character post from a stranger - preposterous!) But in my experience, somebody who loves their wife doesn't talk like you are. Peace!
cherapple Posted May 29, 2013 Posted May 29, 2013 I do not agree with the techniques my wife is using to raise my 3yo son but currently I am the only one that is earning a living. In the last 2 years I have gone from minarchist to anarchist. My wife still sees validity in the state and religion. My main goal is to be able to talk to someone that has gone through the same thing. It is easy to deal with the incompatbiliy but it is tough to watch my son being raised by a tyrant. Is it better to divorce or stick with the relationship? I know it is going to be tough to answer but there may be options that I have not explored. I second what James said. If you can talk to your wife about your childhoods, that is the way to go. It's not about politics, anarchy, religion, or any of the other infinite surface issues that couples argue about and split up over. It's about the ways in which your own unresolved childhoods are coming out as defensive behaviors and affecting your relationship with each other and your child. You won't be able to fully see each other, or your child, until you are willing to see yourselves—particularly your child selves. What do you plan to do if you divorce? Do you plan to take your child away from his mother? Or do you plan to share custody and give your son an option of having a home at least part-time where he is respected and treated well? I'm sure you're thinking through the options, but I am writing from the perspective and uncomfortable position of one who chose divorce. I did not foresee all the consequences of my choice. They will play out, for good or bad, over the rest of my life, my children's lives, and their children's lives. I hope the balance is for good, or I would not have made the choice I did. If I could go back, I would try harder to connect with my children's father with skills that I have now that I didn't have three and a half years ago, but given that I married him in order to exile my child self, my only choice in relation to him was and is to forget myself. He's defensive, angry, blaming, and shaming about me remembering my history. He chooses family—mine as well as his—over me. Once I found people who were remembering their histories, however, there was no going back to forgetting. I wouldn't want to. I don't want to be the parent who insists my own children forget. It's a very difficult and devisive situation, and I'm sorry to see anyone, any child, going through it. If you can in any way reach your wife, exhaust every effort to do so.
Mellony Posted May 29, 2013 Posted May 29, 2013 Hi Joaor! I recently went through what you are going through. I was married for 8 years to a Libertarian who held a position on city council. He started out principled but eventually he voted to raise taxes to pay for a discrepancy in the police pension fund caused by the last city manager....I lost all respect for him. On the homefront, we didn't fight but he was a domineering physically and emotionally abusive jerk. He spanked the kids, beat our dog in front of the kids, made messes for the kids to clean up, and would throw and break things when mad. I became an atheist and he started taking our boys to church without asking me. I decided that environment wasn't healthy for anyone in the family and I divorced him. I'm not sure exactly what is going on in your house but you're not alone. Now that I am divorced I could never marry or even date a statist religious man. I just have no respect for them.
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