I admire atheists

[Phillip Brix]

I personally consider myself a deist. i belive God exists, but i honestly doubt he listens to my prayers or will grant me an afterlife.

i tried very hard to be an atheist. to belive that the unvierse is competely uncontroled by a higher power, that everything in my life can be explianed logically and rationally, that the world always makes sense if you have the right principles, that moral code can be derived solely though intution and philosphy, that i have no one to blame but myself when i can't achieve i certain goal i set for myself. but i find it impossible to believe these things.

the amount of personal integrity it must take to truly be athiest is beyond my coprehension. i envy you guys.

[Guest darkskyabove]

 

I personally consider myself a deist. I believe God exists, but I honestly doubt he listens to my prayers or will grant me an afterlife.

I tried very hard to be an atheist. To believe that the universe is completely uncontrolled by a higher power, that everything in my life can be explained logically and rationally, that the world always makes sense if you have the right principles, that moral code can be derived solely though intuition and philosophy, that I have no one to blame but myself when I can't achieve I certain goal I set for myself. but I find it impossible to believe these things.

The amount of personal integrity it must take to truly be atheist is beyond my comprehension. I envy you guys.

 

Sorry to break it to you; atheism, in its unadulterated form, claims none of what you've stated.

1. Control of the universe is espoused by theists, atheists can't answer that question, as there is zero evidence.

2. Everything can be explained logically. That would be nice, but then reality pulls out her hammer and bonks us.

3. Moral Code: work in progress. (After how many thousands of years?) Obviously, theism's moral code isn't binding (not enough pages on the forum to list the abuses).

4. Why do you feel the need to blame?

As to integrity, it does require a full measure to stick to principle in the face of widespread irrationality.

 

[Pepin]

It was quite a challenge for me, but more on the relationship side, not so much on the rational side.

The concept tended not to make a lot of sense to many in many different respects due to a lot thinking about the idea as a child. I believed it because the fear of hell was inflicted far too heavily onto me by my grandmother as a very young child, around the age of four and through my teens. I was often spanked and given hour long lectures about the devil, what hell was, how I was going to hell if I didn't change my ways, how even good people go to hell, how the rapture could happen at any moment and how I'd be left behind, and so on. I was quite a good kid, and I never really talked back and almost always did what was asked of me, yet this was never reflected in the relationship with my grandmother. Other adults seemed to love me and my amazing behavior.

It was something that affect me in daily life. I'd be in a store, and wouldn't be able to find my mom, and I would start to wonder if the rapture happened and if I got left behind. The thoughts that I was having that were in opposition to the existence of God gave me a strong amount of anxiety and confusion, and I often ended up crying. I avoided thinking about God for quite some time, and would often have to quell thoughts that popped up.

After going to college, my thinking on the subject became more liberated. I think that is because of being away from the relationships I had been in. I still believed in God for a good bit of time, but I began to realize that it became the elephant in the room in terms of what I was not willing to apply rationality to.

One day, I decided to be consistent with all of my beliefs, and said "fuck it". Once I became aware of the arguments in opposition to the concept of a deity, I couldn't believe in God, because it was proven to me that God can't exist. It was not within the domain of opinion, or even claims that could not be proven. I was not surprised of this at this point, as a lot of Stefan's podcasts had helped me in understanding childhood and methods of control, though I was surprised that a lot of the thoughts I had previously were legitimate disproof's.

It was honestly one of the most difficult things to apply rationality to.

[JKPgamer]

It's actually interesting because I am almost exactly the same way.  I treat God as a personal preference.  I prefer a universe with a God in it over one without.  That being said I don't treat God as real...I understand that rationally a God cannot exist.  So in the future and in my daily life I understand that "God exists" is a false statement.  I even argue the atheist position.  I will not teach my kids that God is true.

Of course this has resulted from mental scar tissue.  My mother is a very sympathetic and postive person in my life and she saved me from an abusive father.  She is a firm believer in "spirituality" so my preference has formed out of my bond with her, but as I said I would NEVER pass this on to any child.

[Anjin-san]

 

 

i tried very hard to be an atheist

 

If you're trying hard to be atheist, you'll never become atheist.  It's like struggling for serenity.  You can, however, try hard to understand that gods are logical contradictions, to understand reality and search for evidence that won't be found, and to deal with the emotional turmoil that years of programming will bring up when you even consider atheism.  For me, after doing this work and finally understanding the logic, I just relaxed into atheism.  I was just ready, and I had my "Ah ha!" moment.  Do the work, and just be honest.

[Lowe D]

Thanks for your statement of admiration, phillip.

[NotDarkYet]

Thank you, if your admiration is real.  Though I suspect you are trolling and being passive agressive. 

 

Anyway, I happen to find your deist position not admirable. 

 

i tried very hard to be an atheist.  (try?  Is it like picking up a rock?  Do you think atheists just WILL themselves into the idea?)

to belive that the unvierse is
competely uncontroled by a higher power (as opposed to what?  I see no controller, and you're invoking an unnessesary and self-contradictory element)

that everything in my life can
be explianed logically and rationally,(as opposed to what?  Should things be explained without reference to reason? And by what means would you ARGUE FOR that position?)

that the world always makes sense
if you have the right principles (as opposed to what?  If the universe DIDN'T make sense, how would you even know?)

that moral code can be derived solely
though intution and philosphy ( as opposed to what?  tea leaves?  chicken entrails? )

[tasmlab]

 

I personally consider myself a deist. i belive God exists, but i honestly doubt he listens to my prayers or will grant me an afterlife.

i tried very hard to be an atheist. to belive that the unvierse is competely uncontroled by a higher power, that everything in my life can be explianed logically and rationally, that the world always makes sense if you have the right principles, that moral code can be derived solely though intution and philosphy, that i have no one to blame but myself when i can't achieve i certain goal i set for myself. but i find it impossible to believe these things.

the amount of personal integrity it must take to truly be athiest is beyond my coprehension. i envy you guys.

 

Hi Phillip

It's perfectly natural to think their might be control in the universe (some outcomes of nature look so elegant that they looked designed at first look). This would be trusting your sensual perception.*  "Everything" can't quite be explained logically and rationally, we're still working on it, morality still is a WIP, and there is externalities and luck associated with achieving goals, so it's not just blaming yourself.

So, you've come to the same list of unknowns and un-solved-fors that plague everybody, but then you've arbitralily made a nice cover-all solution by believing in a God.  Lacking these answers, don't you think it would be more satisfying to throw your hands up in the air and say you don't know instead of claiming an absolute knowledge?

Why do you need know everything?  

And, you don't need to give up thinking about this now.  You don't have to claim failure in your thoughts and then just quit.

(It sounds like I'm making a case for agnosticism, but I'm not)

* I don't beleive in a designer

[Phillip Brix]

Hi Phillip

It's perfectly natural to think their might be control in the universe (some outcomes of nature look so elegant that they looked designed at first look). This would be trusting your sensual perception.*

i think science has a hard time explaining various things. for example gravity. what exactly is it? we know objects accerate toward eachother, but right now science seems to have 3 different thoeries of how gravity works. i'm not saying God is a good answer to the problem. its not. we should definitly explore what causes this motion. but untill science can explain the motion of the solar system, the motion of the stars around the galaxy, and the motion of the galaxies away from eachother, i'm not conviced science has the answer.

 "Everything" can't quite be explained logically and rationally, we're still working on it, morality still is a WIP, and there is externalities and luck associated with achieving goals, so it's not just blaming yourself.

I think as a diest it's easy for me to blame God when things go wrong. maybe its a crutch, but its a useful one. as an athiest, if you don't achieve something you have your heart set on, who can you blame but yourself?

So, you've come to the same list of unknowns and un-solved-fors that plague everybody, but then you've arbitralily made a nice cover-all solution by believing in a God.  Lacking these answers, don't you think it would be more satisfying to throw your hands up in the air and say you don't know instead of claiming an absolute knowledge?

I'm not claiming i absolutely know god exists, i'm saying i intutively assume he does. there have been several events in my life that i jsut can't explain in a logical rational manner. nothing major, but many minor things. like, one time i was playing football with my friends agaisnt a professional baseball sports team. while had the ball, one of them, instead of tackling me, tripped me, hard. i flew heals over head and landed directly on my neck. not only did i not break my neck, i didn't feel an ounce of pain. I am fully convinced God has something to do with that. and i have several other events that i attribute to God as well.

Why do you need know everything?  I don't. but i do feel i should know the important things. and knowing how the universe works feels pretty darn important to me.

 

[TheRobin]

I don't quite understand what you mean wit the words "explanation" and "knowledge" then, given the way you use them in your post.Could you tell me a bit more about that?

[Guest darkskyabove]

 

I think as a diest it's easy for me to blame God when things go wrong. maybe its a crutch, but its a useful one. as an athiest, if you don't achieve something you have your heart set on, who can you blame but yourself?

...knowing how the universe works feels pretty darn important to me.

 

 

Again, I would ask you, why the "blame" thing? I submit that it is possible for one to make all the best possible decisions for a given scenario, and still fail, due to variables outside one's control. Where's the blame? I'm not saying that there is no blame ever. You just sound obsessed with it.

As to knowing how the universe works, that's a project which has involved many, many people for many, many years. How do you expect to catch up? Have you taken Philosophy, Calculus, Chemistry, Biology, Physics, etc.? That would merely scratch the surface. Then add Nuclear Chemistry, Biochemistry, Microbiology, Anatomy, Physiology, Astrophysics, Particle Physics, and so much higher Math that your head might explode. And again, that would not be the complete list, just a deeper scratch.

It's one thing to read some stuff in the media "about" science and make claims about what is, or is not, known. Quite a different thing to have actually studied the science in question and have understanding rather than assertion based on third-party information. "I Googled it", is far, far from being able to say, "I studied it, and have an understanding."

 

[Pepin]

I am fully convinced God has something to do with that. and i have several other events that i attribute to God as well.

So if these events did not happen to you, would that be a disproof of a diety?

On a bit of a tangent, I had an instance in college where I began to have an odd experience where I experienced my perception of God. I considered myself Christian at the time, and I certainly believed in God. It manifested visually in a blue aura around my sight, but mostly internally, with the communication without words. I knew it was God, in a similar manner that you just kind of know something in a dream. It was very weird, and difficult to explain. My reaction to this was "oh no, this isn't happening is it... uhhh this is so corny.,, uh, I just need to get to bed and this will go away". I treated it like any other hallucination or irrational feeling, and though I was large annoyed with having to deal with it, I was also kind of frieghtened because the presence of God was rather overwhelming and powerful.

In retrospect, I had an experience that most people would have taken to be ultimate proof of God's existence. Thankfully I did not. This is an experience I don't really share because it is difficult for others to relate to, and to understand how my actions made sense granted that I believed in a God when it happened. It is like I am crazy for having the experience, or I am crazy for not accepting the experience to be a proof of God. Though I know I don't need to say it, but I am an atheist.

[Guest darkskyabove]

And for the record, the term "atheist" is redundant and non-applicable. The meaning of the word implies that there is theism to be anti- to. It is a word created by irrational people to denigrate those that disagree with them.

As a "human", I don't need to disagree with people that claim impossible things. Moreover, I will never accept their obsession with forcing others to follow their madness. I would simply appreciate it if they got the HELL out of my way.

[tasmlab]

 

 

I'm not claiming i absolutely know god exists, i'm saying i intutively assume he does. there have been several events in my life that i jsut can't explain in a logical rational manner. nothing major, but many minor things. like, one time i was playing football with my friends agaisnt a professional baseball sports team. while had the ball, one of them, instead of tackling me, tripped me, hard. i flew heals over head and landed directly on my neck. not only did i not break my neck, i didn't feel an ounce of pain. I am fully convinced God has something to do with that. and i have several other events that i attribute to God as well.

 

 

How did you decide that it was god?  Magically protecting your neck is clearly the domain of a Fairy God Mother.  Or what prevented you from inventing some other device, like maybe magic Earth energy or an Angel?

If you don't mind an unsolicited recommendation (it's the internet!), you sound very curious about this.  Try taking a little dive in the space and read a book on it.  Sam Harris' "End of Faith" or "Letter to a Christian Nation" are absolute delights to read even if it doesn't change your views. (You can ignore his call for a world government).   Richard Dawkins is a bit snarky but "the God Delusion" was a fun read.  And I beleive Stef has a book on it (haven't read it, but it's on order) and he's done a zillion podcasts.

[tasmlab]

 

And for the record, the term "atheist" is redundant and non-applicable. The meaning of the word implies that there is theism to be anti- to.

 

 

How is there not theism?  Dear, your soaking in it right now.  Phillip brought it to this board.  It's manifested right here by Phillip's beleif.  The god doesn't exist, but the belief in human minds seems to be not just real, but downright pervasive in the last 6,000 years across billions of people.

I get what you are saying, but nit-picking the term ruins some of its short-hand utility, in my opinion.

[Anjin-san]

 

And for the record, the term "atheist" is redundant and non-applicable. The meaning of the word implies that there is theism to be anti- to. It is a word created by irrational people to denigrate those that disagree with them.

 

 

To be truly precise, which is very important in debating, "atheist" does not mean "against theism" or "against god(s)."  The prefix "a" means "not" or "without."  It does not mean "against."  "Anti" means "against."

So, to be "a-theist" means to be without theism, or not thiest, and thus not a believer in god(s), from "a theos," meaning "without a god."

The word was created by rational people, not irrational people, to be precise in communication, and not to denigrate those that disagree with them.  How irrational people intend that word to be understood when they use it may be another matter, however, on which I will not comment here.

 

[Guest darkskyabove]

@Anjin-san: Thanks for the correction. My meaning was based on current usage, but I agree that precision is the better path.

[Phillip Brix]

So if these events did not happen to you, would that be a disproof of a diety?

hmm, good question. i would say for me yes. if could explain every
aspect of my life in a logical rational manner, i would cease believing
in God.

How did you decide that it was god?  Magically protecting your neck is
clearly the domain of a Fairy God Mother.  Or what prevented you from
inventing some other device, like maybe magic Earth energy or an Angel?

I'm saying that i atribute my minor mircles to a supernatural event,
and i attribe supernatural events to God. if I had been born in China, i
probably would belive that what happened was caused by Budda. I fully
accept this.

[tasmlab]

 

So if these events did not happen to you, would that be a disproof of a diety?

hmm, good question. i would say for me yes. if could explain every
aspect of my life in a logical rational manner, i would cease believing
in God.

How did you decide that it was god?  Magically protecting your neck is
clearly the domain of a Fairy God Mother.  Or what prevented you from
inventing some other device, like maybe magic Earth energy or an Angel?

I'm saying that i atribute my minor mircles to a supernatural event,
and i attribe supernatural events to God. if I had been born in China, i
probably would belive that what happened was caused by Budda. I fully
accept this.

 

 

So it sounds like (correct me if I'm mistaken) that your beleif is arbitrary.  I would find that very frustrating.  You'd be better off it seems following scripture; then at least you could point to the book as to what guided the decision.

[Phillip Brix]

it's arbitary in the sence that it's a belief i kinda grew up with. just becuase i can't logically prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

i can't really follow scripture becuase the bible contradicts itself all over the place, and i really hope God isn't as cruel and vindictive as he's protrayed in the bible.

as i said earlier, i don't pray, or really belive my prayers are being answered. but i think there are events that occur that can't simply be explianed with science.

 

 

 

[DoubtingThomas]

 

 

And for the record, the term "atheist" is redundant and non-applicable. The meaning of the word implies that there is theism to be anti- to.

 

 

How is there not theism?  Dear, your soaking in it right now.  Phillip brought it to this board.  It's manifested right here by Phillip's beleif.  The god doesn't exist, but the belief in human minds seems to be not just real, but downright pervasive in the last 6,000 years across billions of people.

I get what you are saying, but nit-picking the term ruins some of its short-hand utility, in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure I follow his meaning, but I agree with disliking how the term "atheist," has come to be used in "short-hand."

As far as I am concerned, an "Atheist," is one who is not a theist. That includes deists. Most people don't like that and I understand their qualms, but what else is an atheist?

I certainl wouldn't try to describe all atheists are devoid of irrational beliefs or faith. Most of the self-proclaimed atheists I know are statists who worship the federal government.

Hopefully that wasn't too much of a tangent and for the record, I would term myself a strong atheist. I have no reason to suppose god(s) exist and find the concept to be either self-defeating or unprovable.

[Joey M]

 

that everything in my life can be explianed logically and rationally,

that the world always makes sense if you have the right principles,

that i have no one to blame but myself when i can't achieve i certain goal i set for myself. but i find it impossible to believe these things.

 

These three things aren't necessary to not be a deist anymore.  I'm an atheist, and not everything can be explained currently, the world certaintly doesn't always make sense to me, and there is nothing wrong with putting blame on others while not letting it stop you from pushing on. Personally, I don't see the point in admiring what someone isn't. I'm not well versed enough to help you realize that deism is wrong, but I wish you the best of luck.