Beauty as a red flag

[Jeremi]

I'd like others opinions on this. It seems that Stef has a point that the societal standard for beauty (attraction at the physical level) has a tendency to cause people to neglect philosophy when pursuing relationships, but my interpretation seems to be that Stef means we should avoid beauty at all costs. Am I misinterpreting the point? I'm not terribly experienced with relationships but I tend to find that I always have a small element of physical attraction with the other sex initially which eventually becomes far secondary to attraction on an emotional level. I don't feel like I've been terribly shallow with the types of girls I've pursued in the past but there has been a minor element of beauty involved in most cases. Can the "minefield" of beauty be successfully navigated under any circumstances; is it worth trying to navigate it?

 

What if my standard of beauty does not correspond exactly to a societal standard? For example, I personally find fashion models to be unattractive given how anorexic and undernourished and caked in make up they tend to be.

[_LiveFree_]

I think Stef's point is more like, if someone has lots of physical beauty, that means the odds are stacked against them being intellectually and emotionally advanced. Genetic physical beauty means that this person has most likely had people handing them things and providing a cushion for them their whole lives. In other words, they haven't had to work as hard at actually solving problems, because the solution to every problem is the same,  "be beautiful". This also means that they haven't had the need to gain self-knowledge, because again, the solution to everything is "be beautiful". Now if someone has worked very hard at being physically beautiful, that means they've put in a lot of time in doing so. And it also means that physical beauty is high up on their priority list. And that means that they are wanting to be noticed for their appearance as opposed to any other trait they may possess. 

 

Now all of this is in degrees of course. In fact, a little vanity is a good thing. (brush your teeth and hair, shave, shower, exercise, etc.) And all of this takes time. Just remember, people can really only be exceptional at 1, 2 or maybe 3 things in their life. 

So I think the overall message is not to "avoid physical beauty at all costs", but simply to be aware that physical beauty comes with sacrifices just like everything does. When looking for a partner, try and find a whole person; someone who has balanced physical beauty with everything else that you deem important in a partner. 

 

Can the minefield be navigated and is it worth it? Don't know, dude. Trying to figure that one out, too. At this point in my life, I'm simply incorporating into who I am the things I find beautiful, valuable, attractive, what have you. Instead of looking "out there" for it, I'll make it "in here". Maybe by doing that my "mine dectector" will become supersensitive and I'll be far less likely to blow myself up! (which has been a problem in that past! lol)

You ask very important questions.

[Guest darkskyabove]

If our evolutionary heritage is to seek out mates that provide the best opportunity for successful offspring, to what degree has the media saturation of unrealistic beauty undermined our basic instincts?

[Stefan Molyneux]

For the record, fashion models are not generally designed to be attractive to men, but rather to show clothes well for women. Modern manufacturing methods have been able to make cloth thinner and thinner, which tends to look better on thinner women.

Also, with beauty, the exception is usually the rule – when food was scarce, overweight women were considered attractive – now that food is plentiful, thinner women are considered more attractive. For men, when manual labor was most common, not having muscles was attractive; now that non-manual labor is most common, having muscles is attractive.

[Stephen C]

[^o)]

Anyway, how about a chat about beauty tonight? See what we can come up with.  

[ribuck]

Even the Bernanke has an opinion on this. From a commencement speech that he delivered to Princeton graduates:

"... Remember that physical beauty is evolution’s way of
assuring us that the other person doesn’t have too many intestinal
parasites. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for beauty, romance, and sexual
attraction–where would Hollywood and Madison Avenue be without them? But
while important, those are not the only things to look for in a
partner. The two of you will have a long trip together, I hope, and you
will need each other’s support and sympathy more times than you can
count ..."

[Pepin]

I tend to have a bias to look over far more if the chick is hot than if she is not. If a very atrractive, semi attractive, and not very attractive chick were to do something on a date that I did not like, it would stick in my mind the most with the least attractive chick, it would be something to get past with the semi attractive one, and I'd likely be able to move past it with the very attractive chick. To put it this way, my standards go down when I have something to look at. I think this is called thinking with your dick.

I don't/can't think badly of myself for this, but rather it is something I try to be very aware of when interacting with attractive chicks. I've gotten a lot better with this, especially with a lot of thought.

[Guest darkskyabove]

Might be even easier without thinking of women as "chicks".

[kalmia]

Most young men try to win attention from attractive women by doing them favors. These women normalize this as their view of the way the world works. "Ask the universe nicely, and you will get what you want." Or something like that. Take a look at Facebook for example. Look at the women who will ask for some small favor and get a mass of cocks willing to help them out. It is a very distorted view of the world that hits them particularly hard when they hit the wall, and their behavior stops working.

SInce they are normalizing this, they are unlikely very conscious of it. They are constantly exchanging the value of their appearance for what they get, while others are forced to come up with some other value to exchange. 

They secretly want to be valued for something else. If you learn to not put up with their shit, even if this is difficult at first. They will value you more for it. It shows that you don't value their beauty that much.

[PatrickC]

They secretly want to be valued for something else. If you learn to not put up with their shit, even if this is difficult at first. They will value you more for it. It shows that you don't value their beauty that much.

This is quite true. In a world where no one challenges you and accepts every silly thing that jumps into your mind. Having someone challenge that effectively (and kindly) is very often a source of relief for them.

I'd say that men in general have a tendency to favour women, beautiful or otherwise. Men just seem to be driven by a desire to meet womens needs.

[Pepin]

 

Might be even easier without thinking of women as "chicks".

 

The language used in my post was purposeful and in support of the context of the content. I'm am not going to hide this part of myself through a viel of words, yet rather admit to it fully.

[cherapple]

To admit you hold a conclusion is not the depth of honesty. Why do you think of women as "chicks"? You may already be exploring this—I'm not saying you're not, and it's great if you are—but in-depth exploration of your conclusions about women might lead you to gain some real traction in finding a women who isn't just a "chick." Perhaps I'm speaking the obvious, and I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but sometimes the obvious is the most difficult to see. 

[tasmlab]

I think the overall lesson would be to not pursue someone simply because they are beautiful.  I wouldn't recommend purposefully avoiding beauty - maybe your philosopher girlfriend will have had the misfortune of being born with good looks.  If beauty is their only feature and you can figure that out pretty quickly, then you can avoid that individual.

Defacto attraction will make a person seem beautiful, so how will you know if you are just pursuing a beauty or if you found somebody who really floats yer boat?

As an older person (42!) I very seriously wouldn't limit your relationship pool to girls who embrace philosophy.  First, you are probably young which means everybody you would pursue still has a lot of mental growth ahead of them i.e., a lot to figure out.  Indeed, this applies to people of all ages, but especially the young.

And, there's only maybe 1 or 2 such girls on the planet.

And, this is a hobby.  My wife doesn't spend hours listening to FDR podcasts and reading Rothbard, she's got her own interests and we both share our interests with each other but don't feel like we both have to have the identical use of free time.

You want to find somebody who is nice to you, at least intellectually curious even if largely ignorant of philosophy, and virtuous.  That's my opinion.

[Pepin]

To admit you hold a conclusion is not the depth of honesty. Why do you think of women as "chicks"? You may already be exploring this—I'm not saying you're not, and it's great if you are—but in-depth exploration of your conclusions about women might lead you to gain some real traction in finding a women who isn't just a "chick." Perhaps I'm speaking the obvious, and I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but sometimes the obvious is the most difficult to see.

It isn't a conclusion so much as an observation of past behavior. It is something that I have a drive towards doing, but wish not to do. 

I don't think the focus of the conversation should be on the word "chick", as it was meant to exemplify the behavior I was describing. Using the word "woman" would be in conflict with the behavior and part of myself I am describing.

I don't attribute these aspects of myself to the self, but rather one of the many parts that make up me, especially in that this behavior/impulse is opposed to my values. The behavior is of course irrational and I wish not to act on it.

Part of its origin is the biological drive to mate with the most attractive female. Another is to show off that I am with a attractive woman, so some form of social validation. Another is feeling as though I am likely to be criticized if I am with an unattractive woman. Another being the companion to someone who needs superficial support. I could go on, as this is a subject I've thought about a lot, but I think that is enough.