Gaurav251 Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 My fathers religion is hinduism and he always tries to spread his belief to me even though I never want to accept these fairy tales in my life, how ever it always annoys me how he will ask me questions I dont know the answer of "who made humans, who killed the dinosaurs, who made the universe" and always in the end remarking "god did it!" in that typical average priest man way. Its just so hard to keep my sanity afloat with him that I just ignore him and everything he has to say now, but I wonder what people would do if their father was a person who didnt accept evolution? EDIT:I also might as well add that my father thinks war is a good thing and that humans are naturally born violent (while hypocritcaly stating religion is peaceful to me). I also seem to think hes one of those people who cant live with out the state, from a historical background I can see why, as he used to work in the Indian Navy but gave up on it because it was to stresfull for him but that was when we used to live in India. Now he works as a public school teacher in Canada and I dont really bother asking him any questions about what he does at work considering I already know first hand experience of these public schools.
LovePrevails Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 you coul always go ahead and ask him why he believes that is true you can't really argue with a preference, you can change peoples opinions if they are opinions most people believe lots of things just becasue they "prefer" them to be true, despite any evidence, those views are almost impossible to change
Alan C. Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 who made humans, who killed the dinosaurs, who made the universe These are loaded questions in that they implicitly assume that a "who" was responsible. Humans were not made; they evolved from less complex organisms. My encapsulated explanation of evolution is that as populations of organisms expand over time, they fill niches as variances in offspring produce adaptations to thresholds in the environment. All dinosaurs didn't go extinct. When most people think of dinosaurs, they think of animals such as sauropods and some megafauna which no longer exist. However, many species survived, some of which remained nearly unchanged for millions of years. There is compelling evidence to suggest that a mass extinction event occurred as a result of, or in concert with, a meteor impact. Nobody knows for certain how the universe formed; only what has happened since.
Guest darkskyabove Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 One of the predominant issues concerning criticism of evolution (and science, in general) is the misconception of "progress". The idea that humans "evolved" from less complex organisms into a more complex organism leaves open the idea that there is some inherent design factor (that more complex, somehow, equals better). This is another example of anthropomorphic arrogance, and is completely false. If people have trouble with the idea that humans descended from the same evolutionary branch as the apes, what more trouble would they have with the fact that ALL life on earth descended from bacteria!!! What is the most dominant form of life on earth? Bacteria. They live in every possible niche in the biosphere, from Antarctic ice, to lava beds, to the depths of the ocean floor. In, fact, humans could not survive without the bacteria in their intestinal tracts which allows them to digest food. The idea of "progressive" evolution has been debunked. Anyone interested in rational evolutionary theory should begin with Stephen Jay Gould (RIP). He had a unique gift for putting abstract concepts into layman's terms. One of his premier achievements was to introduce the left wall of complexity (http://brembs.net/gould.html) In summary, if a single-celled bacterium is the least complex form of life, there is nowhere to go but towards the more complex. Through time, more and more complex organisms have arisen and gone extinct; while bacteria has remained and expanded its reach. The emotional construct of anthropomorphism has invaded nearly every facet of human existence. Humans are NOT the center of the universe. The sooner we realize it, the better our chance for survival.
STer Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 how ever it always annoys me how he will ask me questions I dont know the answer of "who made humans, who killed the dinosaurs, who made the universe" and always in the end remarking "god did it!" in that typical average priest man way. So ask him who made God. Not that this will likely change his mind. He'll probably just say "God was always there and didn't need to be made." But it might be interesting to see. If he says that - as well as any of these other things - you could just always ask "How do you know?" Unfortunately, logical argument is unlikely to change his mind. It would be better off if you try not to take his beliefs personally and rather take a curious viewpoint as to how his beliefs work in his mind.
Gaurav251 Posted June 7, 2013 Author Posted June 7, 2013 how ever it always annoys me how he will ask me questions I dont know the answer of "who made humans, who killed the dinosaurs, who made the universe" and always in the end remarking "god did it!" in that typical average priest man way. So ask him who made God. Not that this will likely change his mind. He'll probably just say "God was always there and didn't need to be made." But it might be interesting to see. If he says that - as well as any of these other things - you could just always ask "How do you know?" Unfortunately, logical argument is unlikely to change his mind. It would be better off if you try not to take his beliefs personally and rather take a curious viewpoint as to how his beliefs work in his mind. Unfortunately I already asked this question in my old conversation with him and I got the same answer as you have just said, I would repeat this and he would give the same answer saying that "nobody can make god, god is eternal" and stuff like that, unfortuantely my dad is not a rational person from his traumas in the past (especially in the military) so I dont really expect him to change his mind any time soon.
STer Posted June 7, 2013 Posted June 7, 2013 how ever it always annoys me how he will ask me questions I dont know the answer of "who made humans, who killed the dinosaurs, who made the universe" and always in the end remarking "god did it!" in that typical average priest man way. So ask him who made God. Not that this will likely change his mind. He'll probably just say "God was always there and didn't need to be made." But it might be interesting to see. If he says that - as well as any of these other things - you could just always ask "How do you know?" Unfortunately, logical argument is unlikely to change his mind. It would be better off if you try not to take his beliefs personally and rather take a curious viewpoint as to how his beliefs work in his mind. Unfortunately I already asked this question in my old conversation with him and I got the same answer as you have just said, I would repeat this and he would give the same answer saying that "nobody can make god, god is eternal" and stuff like that, unfortuantely my dad is not a rational person from his traumas in the past (especially in the military) so I dont really expect him to change his mind any time soon. It's good that you recognize that because it's pretty frustrating trying and trying and hoping that someone like that will change. Odds are they won't and even if they did it would likely not be by you badgering them with logic. Perhaps your best bet would be to just try to get off the religion topic and move to the more personal issues behind it all. Ask him about his military service, how he felt about it and so on. Maybe over time you can get him to open up on those types of things and that will probably have more impact than debating religion, which for him sounds like more of a symptom than a cause, anyway.
tasmlab Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Kind of a digression, but I always wonder why so many people, many who don't invest the mental resources to even pick out which reality show they will choose to watch, fancy themselves knowledgeable about the formation of the universe and the creation of man et al. I saw a 16 year old with a creationist bumper sticker on her car, and I knew that she didn't think about much of anything in the world (e.g., never mulled about science or philosophy or economics or ethics or a technical discipline or aethetics, whatever. Just probably thought about clothes), but why does she feel it necessary to have an opinion on the formation of the world?
Lowe D Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 @ Gaurav251 Would you say that the truth is the most beautiful gift you could give to your father?
Gaurav251 Posted June 10, 2013 Author Posted June 10, 2013 @ Gaurav251 Would you say that the truth is the most beautiful gift you could give to your father? I dont know what truth I can really give him if he doesnt want to accept it, and I dont want to force this truth onto him either, its just so hard for me to make a right decision when it involves family members that are close to me.
Lowe D Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 I don't understand what the decision is. What is it?
Gaurav251 Posted June 10, 2013 Author Posted June 10, 2013 I don't understand what the decision is. What is it? Do I continue to talk about his abuse, childhood, and his problems he has now or do I leave it alone and just move on, sorry if I am not making sense I am not that much of a social person.
Lowe D Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 I hope you don't mind, but I still don't understand totally. I thought you were talking to him about his religion, trying to convince him that it is fairytales. To which he responds by dismissing your arguments, which you clearly worked on very much. So he's dismissing your self worth as well. You mention childhood abuse, though. Are you talking to him about abuse he inflicted on you, as a child, or abuse inflicted on him, when he was a child in India? I don't think it's a good idea for you to talk to him about those subjects until two conditions are satisfied. 1. You don't live in the same house as he does, or rely on his income for your survival. 2. You've spoken to a therapist about your childhood experiences with your father, and given yourself some time to process it. Only you'll know the right amount of time, but it could be years.
Gaurav251 Posted June 10, 2013 Author Posted June 10, 2013 I hope you don't mind, but I still don't understand totally. I thought you were talking to him about his religion, trying to convince him that it is fairytales. To which he responds by dismissing your arguments, which you clearly worked on very much. So he's dismissing your self worth as well. You mention childhood abuse, though. Are you talking to him about abuse he inflicted on you, as a child, or abuse inflicted on him, when he was a child in India? I don't think it's a good idea for you to talk to him about those subjects until two conditions are satisfied. 1. You don't live in the same house as he does, or rely on his income for your survival. 2. You've spoken to a therapist about your childhood experiences with your father, and given yourself some time to process it. Only you'll know the right amount of time, but it could be years. Well I havent talked to him about anything other then religion and what happened to him in the navy, I was rather dwelling into whether I should talk to him about these kinds of things, But I guess its a good idea not to talk to him about it as right now I still depend on him for income and survival and for that same reason I have not gone to a therapist since I dont make an income of my own and thus cant afford one.
Lowe D Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Is there any way your father would pay for you to visit a therapist, assuming you can find one you're comfortable with? You don't have to tell him why, or you could lie about it. He may prefer to think you have problems because you are strange, genetically flawed, or because the planets were poorly aligned when you were born. Those are all nonsense reasons, but it doesn't matter what he thinks if he's not sitting in therapy with you.
cherapple Posted June 10, 2013 Posted June 10, 2013 Do I continue to talk about his abuse, childhood, and his problems he has now or do I leave it alone and just move on, sorry if I am not making sense I am not that much of a social person. Why are you focused on your father's abuse, his childhood, and his problems? What is it that you would like him to understand, and why do you need him to understand it? Have you tried to talk to him about your own childhood experiences? There's nothing wrong with asking him about his experiences, but It seems like you are hoping for some kind of relief by changing or correcting your father's understand of himself and the world. If he admitted tomorrow that there is no god, what would that fix for you? You can only change yourself. It is up to him to change himself, if he wants to. The evidence (just from what you've written) is that he doesn't want to. What is the feeling that comes up for you—if you want to share it—at the thought of him preferring to remain irrational?
Gaurav251 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Posted June 11, 2013 Well I already knew that I cant really change my father that much but i wanted to make sure and double check with people who have more experience dealing with family then me and wonder if there really is anything I could really do, but if there isn't much I can do (or anything at all) thats fine too, its rather this is how my relationship has always been with him, me ignoring him, him trying to spread his faith to me whenever theres a chance for a conversation but otherwise being quiet about everything else, and so on and so forth. But I dont think I really care about making my dad rational and logical and opening up doors to philosophy. Its just when I see him remain irrational, it feels like its a infectious disease that I will be caught with sooner or later as long as I stay with him, and that scares me. @ Lowe D Unfortunately my parents wont pay for a therapist for me, as they think its a waste of time and that money can be spent on better stuff. They also bring up stuff about how the therapist will give me pills that will make me end up worse then I already am, or they will give me electric shocks if I say something wrong.
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