Is becoming atheist a major intellectual achievement?

[tasmlab]

Despite being forced to go to church every Sunday until I turned 18 and left the home, I was pretty sure God didn't exist.  And then in my early twenties became very convinced and vocal about my atheism, going so far as trying to convince others and such.

At the time, at 22, it felt like making the decision to be atheist was a major intellectual achievement.

But now 20 years later, it seems kind of 'duh'.  Like "Yea, the sky is blue, ice cream taste good, ice is cold, fire is hot, God doesn't exist."  It's not really a big achievement to see something so obviously and plainly true. And it shouldn't be.

So will this happen with my conversion to anarchism?  It took me a long time to put it together and I had quite a bit of help from the likes of Rand, Rothbard, Stef and others.  Is it a major intellectual achievement?  Or in 10 years will I look back and think "ice is cold, fire is hot, the state shouldn't exist, blah blah"?

I guess it is a question of pride and growth.  My kids feel a lot of pride when they do something, like first get dressed by themselves.  And then later as they age, it's just getting dressed.

[Alan C.]

The major intellectual achievement is showing the integrity and fortitude to critically analyze and question assertions in the face of hostility.

[MysterionMuffles]

Yeah it usually becomes second nature but savour the hell out of the intellectual growth and it'll become an integral part of your life. I felt this way about Eckhart Tolle's message of being present. Back then I really was consumed by my thoughts and even though some of his teachings have become invalid through my intellectual growth with philosophy, the core principle of only using the mind towards constructive means has helped a lot in choosing to think rationally and to think only when needed. It has helped a lt to weed out the other mind garbage that used to plague my mind so with the addition of full atheism and anarchism, I'm pretty sure they too will be part of something bigger later on that will be easier to grasp thanks to what I'm learning now.

[Flake]

Atheism in it's weakest form is logically obvious. There is no proof for God's existence therefore there is no reason to believe God exists. Anarchism isn't as logically obvious. Many reasons exist to convince a person that government is needed. Those reasons are false, of course, but it takes much more thought to realize that. I think atheism is no intellectual achievement at all, anarchism that has been accepted based on reason, is a intellectual achievement, how big a achievement is another question.

[albatross]

As you've already stated, it shouldn't be an intellectual achievement... though it certainly can feel like one. The impact of the revelation probaby depends on how heavily indoctrinated you were.

My parents were extremely religious (Catholic) people while I was in grade school. On an instinctual level, it never made sense to me. At best, I could conceive of a collective unconscious. However, there was something very comforting about prayer and ritual that I wanted to hold onto. In highschool I began to realize the tradeoff. I could feel guilted, gullible, and confused 99% of the time, and then buy into faith's illusory promise in moments of dispair. Choosing truth and freedom over faith was extremely empowering. 

Funny that you used your children's acheivements as a metaphor. Today I overheard a collegue complain that her child's pre-school was having a 'graduation ceremony'. She said that when she was growing up in India she didn't celebrate until she was finished with college. 

I wonder if milestones help or hinder. Do they motivate you to keep going? Or do they cause you to believe you've reached the end?

[tasmlab]

There is a fairly important sacrement in Catholic and Protestant churches called "Confirmation" where you confirm your beleif.

My mother mis-sold me on the concept.  She said it was "when I get to choose to believe in God myself."  

After I finished, I announced that I wasn't going to Church anymore, since I was able to make the choice on my own, I would choose "no".

She quickly corrected me: "No, it's when you choose to believe in god."

[tasmlab]

I digress, but look at the word "protestant".  It's really protest-ant, as in one who protests.  Probably coined when Henry VIII and crew were prostesting against the Catholic church.  I've never noticed that.

[Kevin Beal]

Luckily for me I was born an atheist and was never propagandized to believe in gods. It was no work for me.

[MysterionMuffles]

I found confirmation to be a really peer pressure driven ritual despite of how teachers denied the fact. They really would say it should be your choice buuut you don't get to miss school for a fun retreat and all these other goodies. I really wish I didn't go but it doesn't mean anything. When I told my cousin she said "but you went for confirmation," lol as if that was the point of no return. Me and my friends really thought that was the case but obvious bs is obvious. If religion was so great they should never introduce it to kids on the age where confirmation becomes available. I only went to extend my middle name.

[albatross]

 

I only went to extend my middle name.

 

Heehee. I remember the confirmation class where we had to choose our patron saint name. I can't think of a single kid who took it seriously. We all tried to find the strangest and most obscure saints. Well, they're all strange. But some are wierder than others.

When you're a teen, most of your values are determined by your peers. I don't think I would've been so skeptical of religion if I didn't have friends who were atheist.

[JamesP]

I would say that it is a considerable achievement if you had to fight your way through historical relationships and propaganda.  In that way, it is not only an intellectual achievment, but an emotional and self-awareness achievement as well.

It's not the conclusion that matters, but the process.  It was a simple analogy that flipped me from agnostic to atheist: "are you agnostic about leprechauns?"  But prior to that, I struggled greatly with all of the historical moral burdens.  I had to fight against the "loss of community" despite the empirical fact that I had not experienced any actual help from anyone in the church communities I was involved in.  No curiosity about me, just exhortations about the importance of prayer and devotion--if they paid any attention to me at all.

So for me, that was the triumph.  That was the most difficult part of it... I would say that the intellectual aspect was easiest, for that was the part that betrayed the cracks in religion's inflicted edifice.

Does that make sense?

And yes, I think that once you've accepted an argument, it does become more natural over time, especially if you work to adopt the values that the argument entails.

[Jose Perez]

When you talk about being or becoming an atheist or an anarchist – as opposed to simply accepting certain truths – it sounds like you think of this achievement in terms of how it compares to other people. So – as we say in philosophy, "compared to what?" – compared to religious people and statists I'd say neither is a major intellectual achievement at all.

On the other hand, if you mean it as an achievement in terms of personal relationships and virtue then it is a huge achievement. Perhaps you want to differentiate this from a mere intellectual achievement, and here is why:

One of the reasons we know statists and religious people are bad people in most cases is that they are conscious and responsible for what they do, and this consciousness implies that they have the intellectual and empirical ability to work out the non-existance of god, as well as the invalidity and immorality of the state – albeit in a very repressed or primitive manner. We are all born atheist ancaps.

[tasmlab]

I don't know if this is part of it, but there was a certain level of <i>confidence</i> in the ideas that was important.  There was no risk in telling my family I was part of the program, but lots of argueing if I came out on the Atheist side.  So there was a cost to talking about it, and that couldn't be done without a lot of certainty.

This now seems trite, but it didn't at the time.

Oddly, people have more violent reactions to me saying I'm a libertarian over an anarchist.  The former most people think is some sort of weapons-grade republican.  Now they just think I'm nuts.

:-)

 

[jpahmad]

It is not an achievmenent.  It's a virtuous disposition that's congruent with reality.  Some of us had to shed more bulls#$* than others to get there, but I think it is more like just letting the force of gravity take you there than actual mind crunching work.

 

Joseito, I wouldn't say religious people are "bad" people though.  Some are bad yes, but, some atheists are bad as well.  Manyreligious individuals have been so indoctrinated since birth, that they are actually not conscious of certian "religious" thinking patterns.  And there is a lot of fear involved as well.

It's action that separates those that are good from those that are bad.  And I know many religious people who don't do or say anything harmful or destructive.  If they want to believe that they go somewhere in the clouds when they die, then why not?  As long as they don't push this idea on the young without presenting alternatives.

[Wesley]

It's action that separates those that are good from those that are bad.

Like telling children that disobeying them or mythical beings will lead to eternal death and torture for such evil sins. You know- threats. As long as religious people don't do an action like that, then they can believe whatever crazy garbage they want.

[tasmlab]

 

 Manyreligious individuals have been so indoctrinated since birth, that they are actually not conscious of certian "religious" thinking patterns.  And there is a lot of fear involved as well.

 

I sort of think about this when I here well-deserved liberal outrage at the Westbrook type church people who actually are angry enough in their beleifs to hold "god hate fags' signs at parades and such.

If you think about the level of multi-generational mental abuse they had to go through to become like that, both from their domineering pastors and insistent parents, you can almost feel sorry for them.

 

[Jose Perez]

 

Joseito, I wouldn't say religious people are "bad" people though.  Some are bad yes, but, some atheists are bad as well.  Manyreligious individuals have been so indoctrinated since birth, that they are actually not conscious of certian "religious" thinking patterns.  And there is a lot of fear involved as well.

 

Bad people are conscious of their acts by definition; they are also not exculpated by fear. I didn't say that all religious people are bad, but I imply that most are, of course.

 

It's action that separates those that are good from those that are bad.  And I know many religious people who don't do or say anything harmful or destructive. 

 

The standard for badness is in the power disparity between parent and child. 

 

If they want to believe that they go somewhere in the clouds when they die, then why not?  As long as they don't push this idea on the young without presenting alternatives.

 

but they do push it, of course. This is what many, including Stef, dont want to see. You have to be pretty unempathetic to think that any parent - let alone religious ones - can abstain from using his power to push his values; that they will just listen to you, stand aside and regard the salvation of their own children, the universal nature of values that binds them to them and the "for your own good" as a matter of opinion. Not only is this unempathetic, it is ridiculous.

Every bit of behaviour in the face of your children, conscious or unconscious, bears the mark of the values you live. And trust me, when the child is hurt the parent knows the reason - is conscious.

[Metric]

Something called a "major intellectual achievement" should involve an actual discovery or creation, not just a personal fight to come to terms with reason.  The latter, at best, would be a "personal intellectual achievement."

[MysterionMuffles]

 

 

I only went to extend my middle name.

 

Heehee. I remember the confirmation class where we had to choose our patron saint name. I can't think of a single kid who took it seriously. We all tried to find the strangest and most obscure saints. Well, they're all strange. But some are wierder than others.

When you're a teen, most of your values are determined by your peers. I don't think I would've been so skeptical of religion if I didn't have friends who were atheist.

 

did you go to catholic school but had atheist friends? How did that work?

also I meant to say that if religion was so great it wouldn't be introduced UNTIL the age of confirmation.

[jpahmad]

 

It's action that separates those that are good from those that are bad.

Like telling children that disobeying them or mythical beings will lead to eternal death and torture for such evil sins. You know- threats. As long as religious people don't do an action like that, then they can believe whatever crazy garbage they want.

 

You are correct.  I am considering the making of threats as "action"  even though there is no physical movement.  Instilling negative, harmfull ideas in someone's head, like warning of a Hell and eternal torture, is abusive action.  Howewver, not all religious people do this. 

Many individuals are what I refer to as "passive" religious.  They keep many things to themselves and selectively omit actions and/or lines of thought that could be damaging to others.

[jpahmad]

 

 

 

Joseito,

I know what you're saying.  It's imposible to raise a kid, and direct them to make one choice over another, without calling upon your own value system at some point.  So therefore, there is no way your own personal beliefs cannot effect the raising of your child.

That being said.  From my own personal experience.  My parents are of two different faiths.  My mother Catholic, my father Muslim.  Before myself or any of my siblings were born, they made an agreement not to push one religion over the other.  So, as a result, I never had to go to church, or mosque.  I was never read any biblical stories or stories from the Koran and pretty much just grew up figuring things out for myself.  (I figured everyhting out after my mother told that there was no Santa Claus)

Now, I know you're going to say that somewhere in there, my parents snuck in their value systems when raising me by directing me to make one choice over another.  And that they couldn't have done this without their own value systems kicking in.  True, absolutely true.  However, I'm an atheist now.  And my parents still love and accept me.  And my mother is still Catholic and my father, well, I think he secretly thinks it's all baloney too.  Ha, Ha.  He won't really admit it though.

So, what I'm saying, is that it is possible too make a rational choice (not pushing one religion over another when getting married) and still have core religious superstition floating around in your head.

[TomK]

It is/isn't an achievement depending on what it is you do with this realisation, and how far this realisation extends. If freeing yourself from falehood allows you to move onto greater things, to further your understanding of yourself and the world around you, to be free(er) and happier, then yes, it is a huge achievement, as it will change the entire course of your life, and inevitably the lives of others, for the better.

If becoming an athiest is followed by an all-consuming obsession with atheism, and a rejection of religion becomes a hatred of religion, this is less positive. You have realised a truth, but instead of changing your life for the better and moving on to new truths, you simply fall back toward the falsehood, albiet from the opposite viewpoint. Maybe this is useful in turning others away from a lie, which may in turn be an achievement of sorts, but in the context of the 'individual' is a waste as you are still a slave to a lie. Becoming an atheist, but never escaping religion.   

And if you simply move from one falsehood to another (goodbye Jesus, hello Mr. President!), then it is also less meaningful, as you have escaped a single falsehood rather than falsehood in general. A step in the right direction, perhaps, depending on the direction you are heading...   

[jpahmad]

I'll tell you what an achievemnt would be:

  Convincing someone else, through your words and/or actions, to leave the chains of religion behind and walk out into the wide open.  But you must be compasionate at all times.  Understand the fear that has been driven in to them, and lead the way for them, through sharing your life experience. 

And remember this, people are emotional first, then reasonable.  You must apeal to their emotions!