Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 Hi Everyone! I had an interesting debacle with my mother the other day and I would like to get some input from the boards here. I apologize that the post is long and really appreciate anyone who reads through it all to give me a comment. The debacle involved a video Skype call which first involved me getting upset and rather close to explosively angry at my mother. This cooled down to a level we both appeared to find acceptable. By the end of the call my mother attempted to guilt me into saying I loved her, to which I told her that I refused to answer. The call ended on a strange note and I later found an email sitting in my inbox which was... annoying to say the least. But before I get to that, a bit of history and a more specific description of what went on during the call. My parents divorced when I was 4 and my mother gained custody over me and I was allowed to see my father once every other weekend. My mother was the type that probably won't come as a surprise to anyone frequenting these boards: helicoptering, melodramatic, beautifully rhetorical when it came to being right, and always searching for ways to "discipline" her child (I was the only one, by the way). Her favorite methods of doing so were humiliation and taking away things I liked. She didn't hit me very often but was practically an artist when it came to twisting anything I said or felt against me. She was also what I like to call a "wannabe fundamentalist Christian". That means she believed in all the garbage, however just couldn't seem to find the energy to do it herself. Thus I forced to church, forced to pray, forced to read the Bible, and forced to "honor thy mother". She had severe anger problems and would blow up at a moment's notice. It was like living with a bomb with an unknown length of fuse. She would go back and forth between how much she loved me and how readily she would kick my out of the house if I didn't "honor and obey". By the time I was a young teenager I realized that literally anything I said was simply used as cannon fodder against me, and I learned to tell her and show her absolutely nothing and became adept at making up lies and stories to throw her off the scents of me associating with "Satanic" activities (you know, like reading the Lord of the Rings or something equally as evil). Even if she couldn't catch me with anything, she would often just make things up and get me in trouble for them. I would rarely challenge her accusations because the punishments for her fantasies were usually not as bad as her knowing the real information. Plus if I ever used logic or rationality, I would be met with arguments like "Yea, well that makes sense and all, but I'm mom, so too bad." Staying at the house was like being in a constant state of war; my only defense was a shield of apathy and emotionlessness. When I was 14 my dad's life more or less fell apart and he was barely able to take care of himself, let alone me every other weekend. This was a huge blow to me as those two days every two weeks were the only chance I had to feel safe. Now there was nowhere to run. When I was 16 (and here we're getting to the point of the story) my mom bought a miniture poodle which had been kept in a cage the first 3 years of its life and was a bit... nervous to say the least. This poodle had been bought after the death of the standard poodle, which I had never liked as it had the tendency to eat all my books. I took an immediate non-liking to the new poodle and, unfortunately poodles being like the 2nd smartest race of dog in the world, it immediately picked up on this and took an immediate non-liking to me. Here's where the problem starts. The miniture poodle had a voice of the old standard poodle times 10. If it was barking in the room, two people literally couldn't hear each other if screaming. This Voice of the Lapdog God was thus directed at me pretty much the entire time I was in the house. For example, one of its favorite things to do was to sit outside my room at 6 in the morning and bark at me until I woke up. Now, I'm not saying I couldn't have handle the situation better, as my solution was to hit or kick the dog whenever I had the chance outside of eyeshot from my mom or my step-dad (who looooooved the thing like it was his only baby). However, I began to notice an interesting trend. First, whenever I was unable to speak with my mother because the dog was barking so loudly, my mother would blame me for inciting the dog (by just standing there, I guess), then usually follow by coddling it. Second, if my mom and step-dad weren't home, the dog didn't say a peep. When I would walk into the house it was rather routine that the dog would run excitedly to the door to see who it was, see it was me, freak the fuck out and bark at me aggressively, piss me off to the point where I came close to kick it, then run behind my mom or my step-dad to continue barking - neither of which would make any attempt to stop it and it would usually receive coddling, and often in the case of my step-dad a treat to "shut her up". It was obvious as day to me that the dog considered my parents the alpha dogs and me the omega dogs, and there was absolutely nothing in the world I could do to change the dog's behavior if my parents, the alpha dogs, did nothing about it. Fast forward several years and the story repeats itself over and over. Almost unfailingly, whenever there was a "contest" between me and the dog, my mom and my step-dad chose the side of the dog. To be fair my mom eventually attempted to put the dog in a crate when I came around (this was after something resembling a deFOOing experience when I was 19 and I didn't stay there anymore), but my step-dad would usually come home and let her out and the situation would continue. The picture is probably clear by now: in the hierarchy of the family, I was well below the dog. However, my childhood training went deep and I still said nothing. I wasn't allowed to. I would just keep everything inside and respond by not showing up to my mom's house so often. An interesting illustration with this point came from my best friend from childhood when I was 20. We didn't see each other very much by then and we were at a birthday party of a friend in Seattle. While we were drinking we someone got on the topic of my mom, whom he had seen enough to be well-acquainted with what I've told so far, and he looked me straight in the face and said, "I can't believe you're even able to go out in public today and interact with people." Fast forward again: I'm 26 years old now originally from Washington State. A little over three years ago I bought a one-way plane ticket out of the state without telling anyone and haven't been back since. I moved first to Vermont and then to Europe. I've received much pleading from family and friends to come back because they "miss me and love me so much" (yet always manage to come up with something more important to do when I suggest they come visit me -- side issue), most of all from my mother. I've ignored it for the most of three years, giving her indirect and vague answers. However, in my travels I've made a lot of self-discovery and self-empowerment, and the other day during this Skype call I finally had enough. A friend of mine did something similar a few months after I left Washington. However, instead of doing Vermont/Europe he did Hawaii/Asia (somehow I've managed to go to nothing but cold places and him to nothing but hot places -- alas, another sidenote ). He met a Fillipino girl and is taking her home to now to get married, and I'm planning on coming back for the wedding. This news is relatively recent during this Skype call with my mom I finally announced that yes, I intend to come back, and I even have a rough date. To conversation went then something like this: Mom: "Oh... where you gonna stay?" Me: "Probably Anthony's." (That's the friend getting married.) Mom: "You know, you're welcome to stay here if you want. Well, if you can get along with the dog at least." At this point there was no problem. She said it in a considerate way - just letting me know that the "dog problem" was still there (poodles are also one of the longest-living races of dogs, as well. Ungh). No, what got me is the following: Mom: "You know, Calvin (my cousin, roughly 19) comes over and has the same reaction with the dog. He does the same thing you used to do and gets her all worked up." One could say this is about when the blood rushed to my face and my eyes went wide. I felt myself dumping my whole previous life of shutting up and keeping everything inside into the dumpster and I erupted at her. Out of the absolute hell she had brought on me during my time in that house, the dog being one of the prime tools for doing so, she had the audacity to not only casually bring it up, but to bring it up in such a way that I was the singular antagonist of the story. I let her know this in a rapidly accelerating amount of anger. At first she remained calm and seemed to try to treat me as a child throwing a "brat attack" (her word for temper tantrum), but I think some of my words started hitting home and she tried to finaggle her way out of it. She kept attempting to throw the blame back on me or change the subject, but I kept bringing her back and eventually got her into a corner. She tried to accuse me of guilting her and a couple other things, before finally giving up and asking me what exactly it was that I wanted. She said she felt guilty about a lot of things regarding me and that she didn't know what to do. I told her that I wanted "some fucking consideration" and that I didn't appreciate being the butt-end of every childhood story whenever it suited her fancy. This calmed her down and I got the surprising answer of, "Okay. Yea. I can see that. I'm sorry." At this point this was enough for me and I would have forgotten it and been merrily on my way. But as I mentioned at the beginning, my mom then asked me, "Do you love me?" with that wonderful hint of "there is a bucketful of guilt waiting for you if you say no". I looked at her as square in the face as one can over a videochat and told her that I wasn't going to answer that question. I was ready to explain that it's not real love if you have to intimidate someone to get it, but before I could she hit me with one of her classics. When I was young and she wanted me to do something trivial and usually servant like, if I "coughed up an attitude" she would often say to me, "Do I have show you my Caesarian section scar?" This of course translates to: "Do I have to show you the contract of your obligation to me?" She would then always pull up her shirt and point to the big scar on her belly and come up with some story about how much she's done for me until I went and did whatever she wanted. My response: "YES! Show it to me so I can still NOT ANSWER." She stopped lifting her shirt halfway through the action. The conversation cooled off from here and ended on a weird note. I spent a few more minutes in a minor huff before eventually letting it go and putting my attention on other things. It was pretty much out of my mind before I got the email a few hours later. The subject of the email was "The Anatomy of the Spirit by Carolyn Myss" and simply contained a link. Here it is: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=carolyn+myss+youtube&view=detail&mid=DAD18F7A9CE5BAD62AE3DAD18F7A9CE5BAD62AE3&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR If you're like me, you'll probably make it through about a minute of the video before you need to puke. The message my mom was sending to me was obvious: "YOU need to forgive ME or else you will never be able to get your spirit back." Whatever that means. Now, if I was ticked off during the conversation, I was enraged now. A typical answer for someone trying to avoid responsibility - as soon as she's called on the shit she did to me as a child, the topic turns to "forgiveness". With burning eyes and fingertips, I sat down and wrote her the following email: Did you send this to me because of the call from earlier? "...that something was done to you that never should have been done and as a consequence your entire life is a disaster." ...I find that rather insulting. Are you implying that I feel that my life has been a disaster due to my treatment as a child because I got angry at what I felt was an inconsiderate remark from you? Are you confusing forgiveness with me just telling you whatever nice thing you want to hear like "I love you"? Do you think that threatening me with the guilt of obligation evidenced by your Caesarian-section scar if I don't say such a phrase would make the love or the forgiveness genuine? Do you realize that manipulating people into giving you these things can only provide you with fakes and frauds? With dusty and creaking antique shells of emotions? Do you realize that to force someone to promise something is to guarantee for yourself a lie? I have spent my whole life taking shit from people because I learned as a child that it was my job to take everyone else's shit without question, because their problems, opinions, dictates, orders, feelings, and whatever else were ALWAYS more important than mine. In fact, I even learned that to show my own from this list was actually "manipulative" and deserving of punishment. Is it any wonder that I developed into a teenager that showed no emotion when any act of feeling on my part was taken as an opportunity for "discipline"? Is it any wonder I never spoke when every word that came from my mouth was warped, twisted, and shoved back down my own throat, as if the very audacity of me expressing an idea or opinion was the grounds for violence against me? Is it strange that I was constantly lethargic and non-responsive when anything I ever showed interest in was ridiculed, mocked, criticized, and absolutely despised? Forgiveness, indeed! Now that there is a shred of tension and hardship, I am expected to do all the work? Now that the wrath of dangerous emotion flows in the other direction, forgiveness is suddenly the answer? And if it were, do you think that simply reciting the phrase "I forgive you" magically generates this quality? Was this the value system and dispute-resolution method that was in use whenever I did something "wrong"?You mentioned "fiery" and that's damn straight. I recommend getting used to it. I spent my whole life taking shit from everyone because I learned at home under the continuous threat of screaming, violence, and even the eternal prying eyes of God himself that it was MY JOB to take other people's shit. I am officially letting you know that I have quit and I will never, EVER again take anyone's shit; any offering of guilt, any attack of hatred, stab of jealousy or shame will be shoved straight back with the exact same force they were thrown at me. I will no longer allow anyone to emotionally bully me. I'm aware now where my boundaries are and anyone who crosses them without my permission, anyone who tries to take my space through domination of any means, will be met by the violence and self-defense of my personality. I will no longer stand idly by and let someone convince me, regardless of the argument, that they have the right or the privilege to hit me, whether the fists be physical, verbal, or emotional. When it comes to a person taking someone else's space, an inch is as good as a mile, thus I will fight, kick, scream, tear, and bite for every single inch. Forgiveness is not the issue here. Space, and thus individuality, is the issue here. Any attempt in the future to take my space will result in a just-as-fiery demonstration as the one today. -Your Son The link I included is of Elliott Hulse explaining the importance of the word NO. Despite being rather scathing, I thought I was clear in this email and expected a semi-intelligible response at least. Here's what I got: All universal thought Dylan. Do you think you are new to this stuff. I am just telling you, from experience. Let it go...and give your mother a break. I am far from perfect. Namaste. (Note: Remember this "Namaste" is coming from the old wannabe fundamentalist Christian.) I have yet to respond to this because I simply don't know what to say. I feel like I just asked for directions downtown and got a response about the moon being made of cheese. Thanks if you've read this far. My question now is... what do you do when a parent simply chants "forgiveness forgiveness forgiveness" whenever you try to bring up a real issue? Obviously she can avoid what I'm saying easier in an email as I can't demand her to stay on topic mid-sentence, but I'm also not sure what I could even say in a conversation. Constructive feedback is most appreciated! -Dylan
Wesley Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 My question now is... what do you do when a parent simply chants "forgiveness forgiveness forgiveness" whenever you try to bring up a real issue? What happened when you did something wrong as a child? Did she chant forgiveness over and over? Or did she punish you without even trying to empathize with you? I think you will find that this forgiveness standard is a one-way street. I forget the philosoper who told this, but it has been mentioned several times. In the Bible, there are two conflicting moralities for someone who does something wrong. "An eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek". The philosopher decided that when the ruler harms the subject, then the subject should turn the other cheek. When the subject does something the ruler doesn't like, then it is an eye for an eye. This to me is not the epitome of a healthy relationship. This is a ruler and ruled Christian morality.
JKPgamer Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 My question now is... what do you do when a parent simply chants "forgiveness forgiveness forgiveness" whenever you try to bring up a real issue? You are asking for a rational answer from someone who by all empirical evidence is an irrational person. "When dealing with someone who is irrational, contradictory, and inconsistent..."fighting back" with rationality, logic, and consistency won't make someone look at themselves in a rational manner...in fact they will be so scared of rational reality they will deny it all just to hold on to their illusions...so in stealing a phrase from the movie War Games - "The only winning move is not to play."" This is something I wrote after dealing with the irrational in my life. What your mother did to you is terrible and I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that in your life. It is good that you are angry about it. My only suggestion would be to try and understand why you want validation for that anger from her? I've been where you are and my final conclusion with an abusive father is to just not speak with him anymore. I don't think your mother will ever recognize that she did wrong and change her behavior. What I see from her is "I know I did wrong to you but I want to continue to do wrong so forgive me and love me for my immorality towards you instead of trying to find my virtues." One thing you need to discover is SHE is looking for validation from YOU that it was ok to treat you the way she did. That's what she wants when she says "forgiveness." Don't give it to her she doesn't deserve it.
Wesley Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 "The only winning move is not to play." Agreed. However, realizing this usually involves going through the process of trying to play and trying to win several times as the computer in War Games did. The end most likely will be not playing anymore. My post was for if you still think there is hope to reach her and her to listen to your wants, needs, desires, and reason in general. It probably is good to ask whether winning is possible before continuing to play. Try again and again until you no longer want to. At least that was how I approached it.
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted June 13, 2013 Author Posted June 13, 2013 What happened when you did something wrong as a child? Did she chant forgiveness over and over? Or did she punish you without even trying to empathize with you? Exactly. I mentioned this in my email to her with the "Was this the value system and dispute-resolution method that was in use whenever I did something "wrong"?" Apparently it was interpreted as hot air from my direction. JKPgamer[/url]"]You are asking for a rational answer from someone who by all empirical evidence is an irrational person. I'm not sure where I implied this, but I certainly didn't mean to. I'm well aware approaching an emotional problem rationally is about as useful as running into a wall. This is the reason I exploded like a volcano instead of trying to talk it out. Also, I guess I need to point out again that I've already gone through a "deFOOing" stage with her when I was 19 and she knows damn well that she no longer has any control of my life, not even via threat of taking away her love and support. 3 years from home has demonstrated this rather succinctly. I don't mind talking to her and we get along fine now, assuming she doesn't bring up old topics where she just paints me as the total bad guy. I suppose the deal is that when she does this, I see it as a brand new attack, while she continuously interprets it as me lingering on the past, thus making an attempt to show me as the aggressor instead of her. Which now that I think of it, it looks to me like the course of action is to make this obvious. That is, show her that I'm not initiating aggression, rather defending myself to the aggression that she has initiated. The "is that the same integrity I was given when I was young?" argument is completely valid, but I think it's too easy to swat off as me "delving on the past". I'm still open for any advice, though. I don't really need understanding, philosophizing, or sympathy - I feel pretty comfortable on that stuff. I'm looking more for tactics which other people have found to be effective. -Dylan
JKPgamer Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 JKPgamer[/url]"]You are asking for a rational answer from someone who by all empirical evidence is an irrational person. I'm not sure where I implied this, but I certainly didn't mean to. I'm well aware approaching an emotional problem rationally is about as useful as running into a wall. This is the reason I exploded like a volcano instead of trying to talk it out. Well this is just my subjective experience from reading your post. Your mother admits there is a problem and she's guilty but instead of trying to make restitution and treat you like an adult all she is doing is saying "yes I fucked up but I'm not going to change so you should learn to forgive." She isn't trying to fix the cause, she's trying to fix your reaction...which is irrational in my opinion. My question to you again is: Why is it important to you that she change? I realize having a moment where you and your mother connect would be a great thing, but she seems to want to avoid the issues in general. I know you don't want philosophizing but I just think trying to analyze your reasons would help you. I don't have any tactics for you I'm sorry if my posts weren't what you were looking for...the only tactic I found with my manipulative father was to "not play the game." I will never have that grand reconciliation moment but why would I want the approval of an abuser?
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