thatsmrshem Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 hello, I de-converted from the religion of my parents to Atheism a few months ago. It eventually came out to my parents that I no longer believed, like all things kept in secret do, and so a "discussion" followed because my parents are extremely religious. while talking atheism vs their religion with my parents (who are Judeo-Christians), they brought up a historical occurrence that stunned me a little. My mom said that on september 29th, 2008 the stock market (or more specificly; the DOW) dropped 777.7 points or 7%. This is a big deal for her because the number 7 is considered a holy number, plus september 29th of 2008 was the bilbical holiday of Rosh HaShanah. She brought this up because she wanted an explanation for miracles and wonderous signs. I looked it up to make sure it is factual and according to a couple different sources it is true (here is one for reference: http://www.startribune.com/business/29904294.html ) I am really at a loss as to how to respond; I would really appreciate some help because its really the only thing I have not been able to answer and unfortunently this one instance is a pretty bid deal to my parents. Please ask me any questions that you may have to better understand or to help me. Thank you
Alan C. Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 It's nothing more than a coincidence. Your mom's religious inculcation conditioned her to recognize patterns of no significance. See patternicity by Michael Shermer.
thatsmrshem Posted July 3, 2013 Author Posted July 3, 2013 Wow, thanks for such a speedy reply! My parents are those kind of people that beleive that every-thing happens for a reason (and by that I mean God planned or enacted it), So can someone detail an agruement I can try to use as to explain to My parents that coincidence can truely be just that, coincidence (Beside from the article that Alan Chapman linked)? Again thanks so much, and thank you in advance!
Wesley Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 Wow, thanks for such a speedy reply! My parents are those kind of people that beleive that every-thing happens for a reason (and by that I mean God planned or enacted it), So can someone detail an agruement I can try to use as to explain to My parents that coincidence can truely be just that, coincidence (Beside from the article that Alan Chapman linked)? Again thanks so much, and thank you in advance! The argument is that it is a coincidence that may happen once when you have 100000's of occurances of random numbers (random number of lots of zeroes). From experience, it is unlikely that a rational argument will be able to penetrate this. Why do you think it would be able to?
thatsmrshem Posted July 3, 2013 Author Posted July 3, 2013 Thank you for the help. Well Im new to talking to people about Atheism so I might be a little too optomistic about reaching people with logical arguements.
Pepin Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 What was your reasoning at the time for verifying what they said? Why did it matter?
thatsmrshem Posted July 3, 2013 Author Posted July 3, 2013 I think your asking me why I looked up the claim my parents made and why I cared if It was true, please correct me if I am wrong. Well My religious upbringing has been very centered on the apocolypse and the return of the christ. So one of the things I was taught is too look for "signs and wonders." So I guess the posiibility of the claim being true because It was so astonishing (atleast to me) brought out a sort of fear that I may be wrong and could go to Hell like I was told as a kid. I think I see why you asked this question. you are trying to get me to see that how I have been trained to react to every so called "sign or wonder." Thank you
Wesley Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I think your asking me why I looked up the claim my parents made and why I cared if It was true, please correct me if I am wrong. Well My religious upbringing has been very centered on the apocolypse and the return of the christ. So one of the things I was taught is too look for "signs and wonders." So I guess the posiibility of the claim being true because It was so astonishing (atleast to me) brought out a sort of fear that I may be wrong and could go to Hell like I was told as a kid. I think I see why you asked this question. you are trying to get me to see that how I have been trained to react to every so called "sign or wonder." Thank you I may be wrong, but often questions are asked truly for curiosity. I could not presume to know what is going on for you or why it is a big deal, so I ask questions in order to clarify it more. Others here do the same, while others at least think they know what is going on and will try to direct things more. Not all questions know the end. Back to the issue, I would begin to analyze this situation. It seems like it is a way to manipulate you that someone could claim a chance occurance of numbers that have existed sometime recently and associate it with something religious and use that to control you or keep you in your place. This isn't really your fault as it is how your brain has wired itself to survive in an environment that demanded this. Your effort should be to analyze these instances and to not be manipulated by them. In a strange way, your knowledge of this issue now makes you responsible for not being maniulated by it in the future. How many possible religious numbers or days could exist? How often can these occurances happen by chance? Even if it did mean something, why has this day not happened when 1000s of these predictions were made in the past? You will find that these are not signs or wonders, but mathematically occourances and scientific events. You may always pause a bit when someone claims this, but the goal is to get to a situation where you are able to stop, logically analyze it, and reject it as a sign or wonder. Rather, it is just something that happened. It only means something more if you attach that meaning to it.
Pepin Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I think I see why you asked this question. you are trying to get me to see that how I have been trained to react to every so called "sign or wonder." Thank you Glad I could help, though I'd generalize it to irrational methodologies as a whole. I may be wrong, but often questions are asked truly for curiosity. I could not presume to know what is going on for you or why it is a big deal, so I ask questions in order to clarify it more. Others here do the same, while others at least think they know what is going on and will try to direct things more. Not all questions know the end. I believe she/he interpreted the purpose of the question correctly.
UndeadRufus Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 My mom said that on september 29th, 2008 the stock market (or more specificly; the DOW) dropped 777.7 points or 7%. This is a big deal for her because the number 7 is considered a holy number, plus september 29th of 2008 was the bilbical holiday of Rosh HaShanah. She brought this up because she wanted an explanation for miracles and wonderous signs. Just to nitpick, it was 777.68 points, or 6.98%. People who cling to absurdities like numerology are typically all too willing to round up or down to suit their wishes.
Stephen C Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 Have you ever seen the movie 'Pi'? It's worth a watch, I be thinkin'.Sol Robeson: Hold on. You have to slow down. You're losing it. You have to take a breath. Listen to yourself. You're connecting a computer bug I had with a computer bug you might have had and some religious hogwash. You want to find the number 216 in the world, you will be able to find it everywhere. 216 steps from a mere street corner to your front door. 216 seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere.
Stephen C Posted July 7, 2013 Posted July 7, 2013 There are 216 letters in your post. Imagine?! That would be epic.
Metric Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 The first digit will be a 7 one time out of 9. The first two digits will be a 7 one time out of 90. The first three digits will be a 7 one time out of 900 -- roughly 3 years. The fourth digit was not a 7, nor was the leading digit of the % gain. I am guessing there are ~100 days of some religious significance on the calendar. So, you can expect this particular "sign of the end times" (that no one would have cared about until after the fact) to happen roughly every ten years. Now that your mom has pushed in all her chips on this issue, do you get a free pass?
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