"Kids need to be hit more!" - A Work Conversation

[Jay Paul]

I witnessed an interesting conversation today at work, and I'd like to share a little bit of what I heard with you all and hear y'all's thoughts. 

I'm a 19 year old intern at a physical therapy office and when a co-worker pointed out how a tool used to measure the angle of flexion in a joint resembled a paddle another much older co-worker commented that when she was in school the teachers used larger wooden paddles on the children. Then all of a sudden the office broke into what sounded like a violence-against-children advocacy group. Adults of all ages 20-30-40-50-60, everyone who were present were spewing all sorts of verbal acid about how kids should be beat more at home, kids not being hit is government schools is why the youth today is so misbehaved, etc. 

Personally, I found the whole discussion disgusting and was the only person to my knowledge who didn't say a thing the entire discussion. I wanted to stand up and bring to everyone's attention they were promoting the use of violence on defenseless and dependent children with the goal of modifying their behavior instead of attempting to reason with the child why their behavior that would have provoked a beating is considered negative, and then with the child reason a moral principle for refraining from such a behavior... but instead I held my tongue. I can't say why I simultaneously felt the urge to speak up, but also keep my feelings to myself about this sensitive subject, but that's something I hope to discuss with some of you here.

 

[Jay Paul]

I recall a podcast in which Stefan talks about Christina's experience in a similar situation where she was at a business conference and whoever was leading the discussion used a metaphor she didn't agree with and she felt like correcting the man, but also felt anxiety about speaking up, and she stayed quite. If someone could help me find what podcast that was, so that I may listen to it again now that it's so relevant for me today I'd be very appreciative.

[nathanm]

Although I haven't experienced anything that blatant, I do feel your pain, Jay.  I rarely speak out when a group of people are talking a bunch of shit.   Not in real life, that is.  Cause I fear I will be attacked and it hurts.  It may be that speaking honestly will alienate everyone I know, which is a horrifying thought.  I know that as long as I stay within safe subjects I can get along and there will be no discomfort.  But I suspect this is something which has to be struggled through to arrive at a place of being a contented pariah who at least does not have to pretend.  I dunno about you, but doesn't it suck that the only people you know who agree with you are on the fucking internet?  Isn't that rather sad?  But how could that be true?  Surely there has to be local opposition to the status quo as well.  Perhaps breaking the silence will ally them to you as well.

Of course these situations are even worse at work.  Work is where people who may have polar opposite personal ideas can come together for mutual financial gain.  There would likely have to be a massive realignment of the workforce if everyone wanted to have some philosophical synergy with their co-workers.  But if it's the case that protesting child beating plants a seed that eventually gets you fired from your job, it will still suck of course, but you will have to conclude that 'Good Riddance!' to such a pack of assholes is probably the right idea.  I was fired from my first big job in my chosen field, and it sucked hard, but it led to a better gig where such problems became ancient history.  I am not sure if any of this ramble is of use, but I just thought I would share that you're not alone in your reluctance to rock boats.  Perhaps small steps are a good plan, just inject a little off-the-cuff contrary opinion here and there and see if anything sticks.  We live in a world where thoughtless jerks with the biggest mouths usually are in control, and yet the world is only truly moved forward by the tiny voices of reason amongst all their noise.

[Aaron727]

How is the world ever going to change if good people hold thier tongues in the face of evil? I dont fully understand peoples reluctance in speaking up in these situations but In my opinion if you want to change things you owe it to yourself to speak up despite your discomfort. Does it really matter to you that some jackass is offended that your defending children? Whenever I speak up I feel extremely good afterwards regardless of the outcome of the conversation because I know I did what was right. Once you do start to speak out against violence it will attract good people to you despite what they may have previously believed. The truly evil will be repulsed by you and will know not to bring up certain topics around you because they know they will be publicly shamed. At my previous job no one would dare talk about spanking or religion in front of me and this made my time at work a lot more bearable. I work from home now but I made some really good friends at that job because of how openly I talked about these issues.

A long time ago I asked myself if I wanted to dream about a better world or if I wanted to actually live in one. I think its a good question to ask yourself.

 

[_LiveFree_]

 

How is the world ever going to change if good people hold thier tongues in the face of evil? I dont fully understand peoples reluctance in speaking up in these situations but In my opinion if you want to change things you owe it to yourself to speak up despite your discomfort. Does it really matter to you that some jackass is offended that your defending children? Whenever I speak up I feel extremely good afterwards regardless of the outcome of the conversation because I know I did what was right. Once you do start to speak out against violence it will attract good people to you despite what they may have previously believed. The truly evil will be repulsed by you and will know not to bring up certain topics around you because they know they will be publicly shamed. At my previous job no one would dare talk about spanking or religion in front of me and this made my time at work a lot more bearable. I work from home now but I made some really good friends at that job because of how openly I talked about these issues.

A long time ago I asked myself if I wanted to dream about a better world or if I wanted to actually live in one. I think its a good question to ask yourself.

 

 

 

This is self-destructive. Unless you feel prepared and WILLING to accept the responsibility and consequences of your actions, speaking up just because "it is right" can lead to far worse than good. Being a "shotgun for truth" is about as useful as being a watergun for truth. Laser focus is what is required. If you are hunting an elephant in the dark, the last thing you want to do is to fire off a shotgun that is going to be really loud but only piss off the elephant. What you want to do is to fire a highly energized and focused laser right into it's brain. 

The shotgun approach has a very low chance of successfully killing the elephant and you're likely to get yourself trampled. Then you won't be alive to try again in the future. Having the truth is not enough, you MUST use your brain in delievering it. 

This relates to one of the arguments against the Judea-Christian God. How could an infinitely smart being who can see all things past/present/future choose to deliver the news of his existence and of man's salvation, to an obscure tribe of violent people, in a language that would be dead in a few hundred years? What a dumbass. If I want to confirm a date with a girl, I call her up and talk to her directly. 

 

Maybe God should have gotten laid. 

 

If Jay didn't feel ready or willing to speak up, then he made the right choice. Scouting your target before attacking is a sign of a keen mind. 

[Aaron727]

 

This is self-destructive. Unless you feel prepared and WILLING to accept the responsibility and consequences of your actions, speaking up just because "it is right" can lead to far worse than good. Being a "shotgun for truth" is about as useful as being a watergun for truth. Laser focus is what is required. If you are hunting an elephant in the dark, the last thing you want to do is to fire off a shotgun that is going to be really loud but only piss off the elephant. What you want to do is to fire a highly energized and focused laser right into it's brain. 

The shotgun approach has a very low chance of successfully killing the elephant and you're likely to get yourself trampled. Then you won't be alive to try again in the future. Having the truth is not enough, you MUST use your brain in delievering it. 

This relates to one of the arguments against the Judea-Christian God. How could an infinitely smart being who can see all things past/present/future choose to deliver the news of his existence and of man's salvation, to an obscure tribe of violent people, in a language that would be dead in a few hundred years? What a dumbass. If I want to confirm a date with a girl, I call her up and talk to her directly. 

 Maybe God should have gotten laid. 

 If Jay didn't feel ready or willing to speak up, then he made the right choice. Scouting your target before attacking is a sign of a keen mind. 

 

I am always willing and prepared to accept responsibility for my actions. You assume alot about my approach. I always speak out against evil (except if someone has a gun to my head or is going to put me in jail) and when I do the arguments are rooted in evidence and reason. I have exceptional verbal skills and I am quite good with verbal debates. I shame someone if we have had weeks if not months of conversations and they are unwillng to accept the truth. I have never in all my adult life been "trampled" for speaking up but maybe im just lucky. Is it possible that by saying you cant bring truth to a tribe of violent people your making an excuse not to live your principals? You are definitely not going to bring truth to them by sitting idly by. You will never know if people will accept truth unless you present them with it. If jay doesnt want to speak up thats his choice and it doesnt make him or anyone esle a bad person. Now If your goal is to change the world you really should in my opinion speak up. The voice of truth needs to be a lions roar not the squeak of a mouse. I know I have had wonderful success in my approach and it may work for others aswell but I cant be sure.

Writing this post makes me think of all the times when I was a kid and no one did or even said anything to defend me agiasnt evil. It makes me sick. I think thats why I have a hard time understanding peoples reluctance to speak up. It also may be why I will always speak out agianst the evil in this world. If people claim to have certain values I would urge you to live them or atleast work on it so you can get to a point where you dont feel scared to.

 

[_LiveFree_]

 

 

This is self-destructive. Unless you feel prepared and WILLING to accept the responsibility and consequences of your actions, speaking up just because "it is right" can lead to far worse than good. Being a "shotgun for truth" is about as useful as being a watergun for truth. Laser focus is what is required. If you are hunting an elephant in the dark, the last thing you want to do is to fire off a shotgun that is going to be really loud but only piss off the elephant. What you want to do is to fire a highly energized and focused laser right into it's brain. 

The shotgun approach has a very low chance of successfully killing the elephant and you're likely to get yourself trampled. Then you won't be alive to try again in the future. Having the truth is not enough, you MUST use your brain in delievering it. 

This relates to one of the arguments against the Judea-Christian God. How could an infinitely smart being who can see all things past/present/future choose to deliver the news of his existence and of man's salvation, to an obscure tribe of violent people, in a language that would be dead in a few hundred years? What a dumbass. If I want to confirm a date with a girl, I call her up and talk to her directly. 

 Maybe God should have gotten laid. 

 If Jay didn't feel ready or willing to speak up, then he made the right choice. Scouting your target before attacking is a sign of a keen mind. 

 

I am always willing and prepared to accept responsibility for my actions. You assume alot about my approach. I always speak out against evil (except if someone has a gun to my head or is going to put me in jail) and when I do the arguments are rooted in evidence and reason. I have exceptional verbal skills and I am quite good with verbal debates. I shame someone if we have had weeks if not months of conversations and they are unwillng to accept the truth. I have never in all my adult life been "trampled" for speaking up but maybe im just lucky. Is it possible that by saying you cant bring truth to a tribe of violent people your making an excuse not to live your principals? You are definitely not going to bring truth to them by sitting idly by. You will never know if people will accept truth unless you present them with it. If jay doesnt want to speak up thats his choice and it doesnt make him or anyone esle a bad person. Now If your goal is to change the world you really should in my opinion speak up. The voice of truth needs to be a lions roar not the squeak of a mouse. I know I have had wonderful success in my approach and it may work for others aswell but I cant be sure.

Writing this post makes me think of all the times when I was a kid and no one did or even said anything to defend me agiasnt evil. It makes me sick. I think thats why I have a hard time understanding peoples reluctance to speak up. It also may be why I will always speak out agianst the evil in this world. If people claim to have certain values I would urge you to live them or atleast work on it so you can get to a point where you dont feel scared to.

 

 

 

OK, but this thread isn't about you. 

[Aaron727]

OK, but this thread isn't about you. 

 

When I started to live my values it was one of the biggest and greatest changes in my life. I wanted to share my experience in this thread so that people are aware that really amazing things can happen when you speak up in uncomfortable situations. It might help someone to know that its possible for their lives to actually improve in many ways by following their conscience. This thread is about speaking up in public about evil and that is what I have been sharing.

 

[_LiveFree_]

 

OK, but this thread isn't about you. 

 

When I started to live my values it was one of the biggest and greatest changes in my life. I wanted to share my experience in this thread so that people are aware that really amazing things can happen when you speak up in uncomfortable situations. It might help someone to know that its possible for their lives to actually improve in many ways by following their conscience. This thread is about speaking up in public about evil and that is what I have been sharing.

 

 

 

Dood, count how many times you've said "I" in this thread so far. You sound like a baptist preacher or mormon missionary. You're proselytizing instead of using logic or reasoning to engage in discussion. You're saying "I've had this experience, and it was so great so everyone else should, too! And if they don't it makes me sick!" or some such mess. 

Here is the last line of the original OP...

"I can't say why I simultaneously felt the urge to speak up, but also keep my feelings to myself about this sensitive subject, but that's something I hope to discuss with some of you here."

 

Maybe we can refocus a bit. 

[Wesley]

 

Here is the last line of the original OP...

"I can't say why I simultaneously felt the urge to speak up, but also keep my feelings to myself about this sensitive subject, but that's something I hope to discuss with some of you here."

 

Maybe we can refocus a bit. 

 

(Potential) Advantages to Speaking up:

Feel like you are making a differnce (very likely to be just a self-serving illusion)

Possiblly (though very unlikely) make a difference in someone's life by at least getting them to doubt what they are doing

 

(Potential) Disadvantages to Speaking up:

Social Ostracism

Bomb in the Brain series shows that disagreement can lead to people reinforcing their existing positions, this making things worse

Losing Job (somewhat unlikely)

Certain straining of any existing relationships with co-workers

 

To me, in a purely economic sense it seems that the positives are almost negligable and will not happen, at least minor to potentially negatives will occur. I would personally start looking for another job or something if at all possible, but I would probably not speak up because of these outcomes and (justified) fear of the likely negatives compared to a likely irrational hope of positives.

[Aaron727]

 

 

 

 Dood, count how many times you've said "I" in this thread so far. You sound like a baptist preacher or mormon missionary. You're proselytizing instead of using logic or reasoning to engage in discussion. You're saying "I've had this experience, and it was so great so everyone else should, too! And if they don't it makes me sick!" or some such mess. 

Here is the last line of the original OP...

"I can't say why I simultaneously felt the urge to speak up, but also keep my feelings to myself about this sensitive subject, but that's something I hope to discuss with some of you here."

 Maybe we can refocus a bit. 

 

Is there some rule about using the word "I" too many times? All I can offer you is the approach that worked for me(If you don't think its a good idea then don't listen to me). It may not work for you as I have clearly pointed out in my previous posts. Most enlighten people would feel diguested after hearing people talk about beating kids and then holding their tongue.Try speaking up and tell me how that feels? What about the amazing friends you can make by speaking up? What about all the cold blood reptiles you get to cut of out your life because you speak up? It might be worth a try. I don't think everyone should do exactly what I do but I have had great success and I want to share that success with people. In regards to the last line nathanm made a great post about the ambivalence of speaking up

[Aaron727]

 

 

 

(Potential) Advantages to Speaking up:

Feel like you are making a differnce (very likely to be just a self-serving illusion)

Possiblly (though very unlikely) make a difference in someone's life by at least getting them to doubt what they are doing

 (Potential) Disadvantages to Speaking up:

Social Ostracism

Bomb in the Brain series shows that disagreement can lead to people reinforcing their existing positions, this making things worse

Losing Job (somewhat unlikely)

Certain straining of any existing relationships with co-workers

 To me, in a purely economic sense it seems that the positives are almost negligable and will not happen, at least minor to potentially negatives will occur. I would personally start looking for another job or something if at all possible, but I would probably not speak up because of these outcomes and (justified) fear of the likely negatives compared to a likely irrational hope of positives.

 

Do you think social ostracism could be put in the advantage column? Wouldnt not socializing with evil people be a positive force in your life? I'm curious to know where you get the idea that its very unlikely you can make a difference in someones life? Do you speak out agiasnt evil whenever it presents itself and always fail to make a difference? One advantage you missed is when you speak up the good people and the evil people are revealed to you. A lot of good people have been propagandized and the truth has never been presented to them.

[Wesley]

 

Do you think social ostracism could be put in the advantage column?

 

Not if he is dependant on the job.

Wouldnt not socializing with evil people be a positive force in your life?

Not if he is dependant on the job.

I'm curious to know where you get the idea that its very unlikely you can make a difference in someones life?

Every single one of them was on the pro-spanking side in the OP.

Do you speak out agiasnt evil whenever it presents itself and always fail to make a difference?

I do not always speak out, but I do sometimes when I think that something positive can come of it. Even then, it can be a flip  of a coin.

One advantage you missed is when you speak up the good people and the evil people are revealed to you.

In the OP, they are all already revealed as evil.

A lot of good people have been propagandized and the truth has never been presented to them.

True, but you still know pretty quickly if someone is able to be changed or not. Most people have no desire to change and will continue to reinforce negative behaviors. People openly advocating that children need more violence is pretty derranged and I would not want to be near those people. If someone is actively hurting a child or threatening a child, then I would stand up regardless to try to get them to feel social shame or at least for the kid to know that not everyone thinks its right. However, this is not the case in this situation at all. I trust the OP's feelings that it was not correct to speak out as things likely would turn negative.

[Aaron727]

Well we agree that losing your job over a spanking debate is pretty unlikely so im not sure how much of an issue that would be (depends on management I guess). I also wanted to point out that just because everyone is on the pro spanking side of the debate we cant make a snap judgment that they are evil. What if they were spanked as children and all their life they were told it was a good thing? By speaking up you find the people willing to change(atleast we can be certain of it once we have presented the arguments). It may be a flip of a coin or worse but if there is even a chance you can make a difference isnt it worth it? If you speak up now some assholes know not to bring up spanking around you and you can get on with your job. I think there is a strong case to be made for speaking up.

[Jay Paul]

Fortunately for me I only have a couple more days ofinterning there over the next two weeks before I happily return to college. 

 

Reflecting back on my experience it was discouraging most of all to hear my fellow interns in equal support of corporal punishmentas my older co-workers. I couldn’t help but foresee them hitting their ownchildren when they eventually have their own, and think about what negativeeffects it would wreak on their children's unborn souls. Their ignorant callousness wasannoying, frustrating, as well as petrifying. I had a relative idea how I wouldfeel afterwards if I didn’t speak up, but had no idea what would happen if Ispoke my mind, so being the cautious person I am I kept my peace and let themhave their hell.

 

After reading everyone’s comments here, on a page I posted thisto on facebook, and on Stefan’s facebook page, where I saw he reposted this to (Thankyou very much for that by the way, Stefan!), I believe now that I made a gooddecision. I say “a good decision” and not “the correct/best decision” meaningthat there could have been other positive routes I could have taken, but theone I took wasn’t necessarily negative for me. I think I could’ve spoken mymind and let everyone know that I personally don’t condone violence againstchildren in a calm manner that wouldn’t have provoked a verbal attack onmyself, but I appreciate myself for being patient and taking the time to domore research on this very important matter, so that in the future I’ll feelless reluctant towards sharing my opinion, because I’ll be better armed.

 

I’m not one to make excuses, but I’m only 19 and have beenlistening to Stefan just over 6 months now, so a lot of these ideas are stillrelatively new to me. But I’m doing what I can to educate myself about theseimportant subject matters that Stef discusses, and I’ve recently beganpracticing debating with myself, so I can feel more prepared when I initiatedebates with people, because I don't have any people to talk in my personal life to about these subject we discuss here.

 

I’d like to thank everyone who’s taken the time to respondto my post. I got so much more of a response from the FDR community andeveryone else who responded on other threads than I ever expected. It’s beenimmensely beneficial to see how many people care, and are willing to sharetheir opinions with me. 

[Andersfilosof]

Hello Jay.  In my opinion, the best you could possibly hope for in that situation is just to express your ideas and see if the people you were talking to were capable of being planted with the seed of doubt regarding their views about aggression.  If these people see all the other adults and parents defending spanking, even if deep down they have some doubt, they're highly unlikely to let it show around other parents, because that would be an implicit criticism of their past decisions and the other parents' past (and potentially future) decisions, and as you're well aware, most people can't handle that, least of all people who have abused another human being.

At the same time, it's not wrong to not speak up.  You don't owe anyone the truth.  I had a conversation with a couple of coworkers a few years ago about spanking.  One lady mentioned she had spanked her kids when they smaller/younger, and another guy chimed in with "Parenting 101" (not in a sarcastic way either).  I mentioned that I was spanked and that spanking had been proven to reduce IQ points, and it's fundamentally teaching the kid to use force when someone does something they don't like. 

I heard the usual objections from the lady, and I didn't push any further, partially because I would get rides home from her sometimes and almost always worked next to her and I didn't want it to be awkward, and partially because based on previous anecdotes and stories she'd told me about her life as a single mother, I understood she was very cerebrally narcissistic and constantly blamed others (including our managers) for things not going her way, so subconsciously I saw her as a lost cause and didn't take her to task for her responses to my initial arguments.  Quite honestly, I don't regret my approach.  I made my viewpoints known, and threw some seeds out there, without making my work situation awkward thereafter.

[Cornellius]

I am sorry that you had to go through such concentrated anguish. I would have fainted. People of all ages getting together in spouting with pride some of the most despicable and selfish plans on Earth...I understand why you were torn. You felt the fear of being in a room full of crazy people and the anger of standing up for the millions of children that were being conspired against on that room. And you had great retraint too, not to fall into the trap of bringing yourself down to their level. I realize that the situation was hopeless; you weren't going to change a group of people on your own.

[MysterionMuffles]

Baby steps. I think you can RTR by saying you feel uncomfortable about the subject, and the first person to ask you why without insulting you just might be someone who might agree with you. But of course only conforming to the crowd. Its suicide taking on a whole group but if you feel strongly after the initial conversation maybe try talking to at least one person you know to be at least a bit intelligent and open minded.

 

Aaron its great that it worked for you and that youre lucky it did, but you need to consider that expressing virtue is sometimes too much for peoples mythologies. I agree you need to speak up but you also need to pick your battles.

 

Jay I think you did the right thing keeping silent if you really need this job for the next two weeks. If you dont have any personal or close to personal connections with your coworkers then it shouldnt be too much of a problem to graciously leave them believing in their indoctrination long after you leave the place.