what proof / evidence do atheist need?

[Kawlinz]

o you have non supernatural proof that will convince you of god? Basically, describe a scenario that will make you believe in god and no longer claim as atheist / agnostic using whatever you think will make it so. If you say it's not possible, isn't that the same as theist who say not believing in god is impossible? Fundamentally, both arguments are the same.

 

I see two ways out. One is to come up with a scenario which would convince one to believe in god (scientific method of hypothesis testing). Second is to know about everything (ie, become a god). If one claims we don't know and we can never know, that's pretty much the same as theists who claim they know and there is no way to be otherwise. Maybe there's nothing wrong with being a religious atheist, but in that case, I might as well go join religion / church and have better social life.

 

By the way, I wonder if theists have this kind of discussion. Proof of god is all around them, but do they ever discuss what proof would be needed to not believe in god? That's probably a topic for another forum.

 

I already said that if contradictions can exist or happen, then yeah, I'd be open to the idea that god could exist. But if that were the case, then belief and non belief might be the same thing, and we'd have no disagreement. Then again, disagreement could be the same as agreement, and we wouldn't be having the conversation. Then again, having a conversation and not having a conversation could be the same thing and.... I think you get the idea.

[Alan C.]

If you see a being that shows itself and claims to be god and shows you...that it creates universe on a whim, you will believe it to be god?

 

I'd consider that to be very compelling evidence.

[catfood]

I'd consider that to be very compelling evidence.

"I am catfood, your god. I show myself before you. I created this universe that which you occupy. I also create many other universes on a whim, some of which I let you see through your dreams."I doubt you're ready to start believing in catfood as your god and stop atheism. I certainly won't. And if catfood shows the multi universes to me all the time and on my request, I'll question my sanity before believing it as god. But maybe you're less rigorous and now believe catfood to be your god.

[Alan C.]

Showing and claiming aren't the same thing.

[catfood]

Showing and claiming aren't the same thing.

Unless you don't live in this universe or don't have dreams, catfood has shown you all that you require. He even told you so to make it easier for you. What else do you want? Moving the goal post?

[Pepin]

It really depends on the criteria or definition. I'd also need a way of checking that I wasn't dreaming or tripping on a combination of LSD and DMT with a pinch of crystal meth.

 

If it is the God that created the universe and then stopped being and plays no role in human or physical affairs, then any proof would contradict the idea.

 

If it is the God that does play a role in material reality, then the God sending me knowledge of the winning lottery tickets would work for me, provided that she allowed me enough time to buy them. Though I now trap myself in a bad situation, because if a voice came from within me claiming to be God and that these are the winning lottery tickets, I'd see that more is a mecosystem part going a bit off the deep end. So maybe if I am looking over a shopping mall, and right as the voice is talking to me, the people in the mall arrange themselves in a way that would spell out the lucky numbers. But in that case, I'd likely question whether I was hallucinating. Hmm...

 

Perhaps the best proof I could think of would be being told knowledge of a physical theory that can be easily empirically verified with our time, and where the knowledge is far outside the current capabilities.

[catfood]

...

Perhaps the best proof I could think of would be being told knowledge of a physical theory that can be easily empirically verified with our time, and where the knowledge is far outside the current capabilities.

Besides LSD and hallucinations, you also have to consider the possibility that the being could be alien from advanced civilization affecting the bio-mechanical machinery in you (or us) to make it seem like he's god. If what you suggest came to pass, I'd certainly question it as possibly being an alien. By the way, it's not she, although if she let me F her, she's a step closer to god IMO.

 

I'm watching star trek now, and it's amazing how much of this Gene covered in the 60's.

[Alan C.]

Unless you don't live in this universe or don't have dreams, catfood has shown you all that you require. He even told you so to make it easier for you. What else do you want? Moving the goal post?

 

That isn't what you said. You asked if a being appeared and shows that it could create a universe on a whim, if that would be convincing enough.

 

Then you wrote:

 

"I am catfood, your god. I show myself before you. I created this universe that which you occupy. I also create many other universes on a whim, some of which I let you see through your dreams."

 

You haven't shown anything. You've made a claim. You've moved the goalpost by changing the standard of proof mid-argument.

[Dogbyte]

I already gave you the reasons, 10 of them. I listed them numerically in this very thread. Which one do you have an issue with?

 

 

all of them. since you brought up contradictions, i wonder what you thought about the contradiction of having a cosmos precede itself with respect to causation? would the cause be material? or immaterial? 

[Kawlinz]

I addressed that

[Dogbyte]

I addressed that

 

ok i see. thanks