Hello, can you please feedback on my conduct and ...

[LovePrevails]

...what you think motivates my opponent in this debate

 

https://www.facebook.com/rockstarguy/posts/4770219788007?comment_id=4508672&offset=0&total_comments=33

 

do you think I said/did anything out of order/unscrupulous/offensive?

 

also did you think the other person was unreasonable when they backed out?

[Rob_Ilir]

I think the conversation was over and backed out at " Lenient justice is regarded as a weakness to be exploited." 

 

He already set up the parameters of who is justice, and who will be the exploited. The unscrupulous/offensive remark was part of the exploited part, as that is "human nature" according to that statement. I wonder what part of " Punishment Does Not Prevent Violence" set him off.

[Stephen C]

That's generous of you, Rob. I thought the conversation was over at "Middle East crime rates don't back this theory"

[TheRobin]

I'd rather focus on what you think and your motivation to stay in the conversation for that long. And if you truly think that your question was offensive.For what it's worth though, I didn't find it offensive, I was actually quite confused when the other guy suddenly said somethign about being offensive, as I couldn't figure out what he could possibly be talking about. After that idk, it just looks a bit like you're begging him to keep debating. This person has clearly shown to you from the start that neither evidence nor reason interests him particularly, so why did you stay in the debate so long in the first place? 

[MCM]

Some 'jibe' got his defenses up...but I could not find any jibes in your content. Something touched a soar spot in him and he took offence. 

 

Stanley Sammeroff I think I would like to stop here, it was offensive. I am not debating my upbringing or yours. Perhaps in future you should consider leaving out personal jibes its a sign of desperation.

 

I really think the subtext of his responses is: I had a violent upbringing and I haven't turned out violent., robbed nursing homes, abused drugs etc". But he did not want to reveal these painful details.

[LovePrevails]

Ok thanks for the feedback guys, I was just checking -

 

first for clarity, a little bit on my emotional reactions to reading feedback,

when I read things like "I'd rather focus on what you think and your motivation to stay in the conversation for that long."

I feel a sort of pain, like I'm being accused of doing something wrong - I know this isn't your intention - and yet it arises

it's the second time it's happened when I asked for feedback here

 

I really didn't like the term "it looks like you're begging him to stay in the debate"

it was perceived by part of me as a sort of accusation of being needy and I didn't think that was what I was doing

I think it's just the word choice, it has no reflection on the intention of the poster

 

These subtle feelings are weird and they interest me because they point to a vulnerability

 

Re: why did you continue the debate

I wanted to present all the evidence before dismissing him out of hand as then there can be said to be "no stone left unturned"

the person has no excuses they had access to all the data and persisted with their opinion against reason and evidence

 

I asked you guys to look at it (and thanks for doing so) to make sure I wasn't guilty of any "jibes" because if I was I would like to correct the situation  as I value my integrity and it is linked to my self-respect, as part of my self-respect comes from holding myself to high standards of integrity

 

ok so lets go on

 

did I think it was offensive?

NO! I just asked a question! If I had said "you probably had a punitive consequences imposed on you and that's why you think that" then it would be an accusation and could be construed as offensive - given it was merely a question I don't think it was! He could have as easily said "I'm not comfortable with those questions."

 

I'm not sure what Rob means by:
"He already set up the parameters of who is justice, and who will be the exploited. The unscrupulous/offensive remark was part of the exploited part, as that is "human nature" according to that statement. "

 

What does that mean???

 

 

finally, I think FreeOn's statement "I had a violent upbringing and I haven't turned out violent., robbed nursing homes, abused drugs etc". But he did not want to reveal these painful details."

 

could be insightful

[Rob_Ilir]

 

I'm not sure what Rob means by:

"He already set up the parameters of who is justice, and who will be the exploited. The unscrupulous/offensive remark was part of the exploited part, as that is "human nature" according to that statement. "

 

What does that mean???

 

Hi LovePrevails.Sorry for not being clearer before. What I attempted to say was that the other guy already made up his mind about the subject, including who plays what part in it, and he was in his way to bully you to his position through any trick he could find, shamming won in the end. 

 

Stephan C also made a good observation that the facts will not matter to him in the debate. 

 

Would you have done the same if both of you did not share the same last name or didn't have any relations?

[LovePrevails]

ok thanks for clarifying that is useful

 

 

I think I am going to continue engaging in useless debates for a while yet, I want to start trying some new approaches

instead of just shooting off a list of reason and evidence i want to try more socratics and asking questions

 

I've never been very good at not jsut stating my position with inference to reason and evidence

 

i'd liek to see reactions to, "So what do you think motivates them?" rather than saying "you're wrong because..>"

 

 

it may not make a difference but at least I will have see it work (or not work) for myself

[MCM]

These subtle feelings are weird and they interest me because they point to a vulnerabilities

 

 

 

Although none of us intentionally want to be abusive we can be in the most careless ways. You asked  for comment on specific questions and you received:  judgement, cynical observations and psychoanalysis about things outside your frame of reference. It was like a kid showing a parent their painting and the parent responds "why did you even bother painting that". I'm so super-conscious these days of not being emotionally abusive in any way and your 'subtle feelings' are perhaps a response to some subtle and indeed unintentionally abusive responses.

[Soren]

Well my impression reading this was this:

He set the terms for the discussion with his first comment and you followed suit in the same lane not raising the level. It seems to me that you don't actually provide evidence for the uninformed reader.

And a few things I noticed:

You state facts but all you got to back them up are statements and very brief videos of James Gilligan.

Plus you go on to indirectly call your opponent primitive and wrong minded:

 

"People become violent as a result of suffering severe trauma such as childhood neglect, abandonment or abuse (physical, emotional and/or sexual) --- that is not my opinion but established social science based on all the psychological data available to us. (Ie. if you go into prison you will find people who in childhood were never cuddled, hugged, played with, protected, guided, comforted, soothed, read to, listened to
or tucked in, but mainly growled at, barked at, insulted, smacked, beaten, sexually assaulted and ignored.)

The idea that "tough justice" ie. inflicting more trauma on an already traumatised/abused individual will make them better rather than worse is the result of a primitive kind of thinking ie. if you do something unpleasant to me then I will do something unpleasant back to you to teach you a lesson. The psychology shows clearly that It Does Not teach them a lesson, it makes them worse because they are now humiliated and want to get revenge.

The reason why people continue to believe this even though all the data shows it is a wrong-minded way of looking at the situation, is usually because they were treated punitively as children, exposed to punishments, spanking, "strict-discipline" and told it was "for their own good" and so looking at the situation clearly for what it is would also ential having to reassess their own childhood for trauma and wounds inflicted on them advertently or inadvertently by their own care-givers. That can obviously be a very painful process for most people."

 

"I already apologised, so I'm sorry if you were offended, it wasn't intended that way and I retract anything you found personal. "

This statement I find disingenuous and insulting, first: you turn an apology into an explanation of the word apologise like he is a child. Then you say its a spray and pray apology "...I retract anything you..." you don't seem to actually care if he was offended or what offended him.

 

Also its you who bring in the word "offensive" in to the conversation "I see, well I'm sorry if that was offensive, it...." You can't know if he would have said it was offensive if you had not introduced the word.

Soren