Religion as a hobby

[James Dean]

I have an interesting theory for you guys, and it makes sense to me, I just wanted to get some feedback for it.

 

I'm an atheist, and have been for pretty much my whole life. I think that organized religion is destructive to society and corrupts people's minds with magical thinking that prevents them from thinking objectively about reality. However, the other day I was thinking, would it be possible for people to know there is no god, know there is no mysticism in real life, think with 100% clear headed objectivism, and still enjoy the ritual and the practice of religion. 

 

Who knows what their motivation might be, maybe they are a cultural enthusiast and just want to experience the ritual, maybe they are just drawn to the symbolism and find the poetry beautiful and inspiring, what have you. If they understood that it was all pretend, that it was just a 'for fun' kind of thing, would it still be as destructive or even negatively impact people at all?

 

In my sociology class, we were reading a few excerpts form Emile Durkheim, and he discussed that human beings like to gather together in groups and that it gives them a rush of creative energy, the likes of which would be impossible individually... without copious amounts of drug use that is. Maybe these gatherings and rituals would be benign if people understood it was all fantasy; roll playing akin to civil war reenacting and regular everyday theater.

 

The only problem I could find would be the susceptibility of humans to do destructive things while in a state of group think. If these meetings or rituals were being preformed, the people involved would be in a state of group think, with all the juicy deindividuation that goes along with it. If someone wanted to corrupt a group it would be pretty easy, like an instant cult, "just add water!"

 

Let me know what you guys think! 

[Existing Alternatives]

I think you are onto something. For that matter, I think most people attend religious services, holidays, etc. in a similar way they go to movies, theatre or other performances. You can even go further by suggesting that "belief" under these conditions is similar to "belief" in the reality of movies.

 

You can never really get away from group-think. A religious group is just one of many possible groups that are as succeptible to it.

[nathanm]

I can't speak for the snake handlers or the dancing and belting out gospel tunes crowd, but I know that if an atheist willingly attended Catholic Mass on a regular basis for recreational purposes such a person should probably be immediately euthanized for the good of humanity.

[James Dean]

I can't speak for the snake handlers or the dancing and belting out gospel tunes crowd, but I know that if an atheist willingly attended Catholic Mass on a regular basis for recreational purposes such a person should probably be immediately euthanized for the good of humanity.

so you are saying that there is something inherently bad in religion? I'll give you that there is something inherently morally reprehensible in presenting falsehood as truth, as a lot of churches are wan't to do, but when if there was an implicit or explicit recognition that it was all just fantasy, kind of a role play, would that still be inherently evil? if so, is DnD inherently evil?

[tasmlab]

I think you would have to be a masochist to attend church services or even coffee hour afterward as an atheist.  The former are uniformly tedious and just imagine the awful conversations to be endured in the later.

 

This said, my atheist family will cherry pick some things related to religion for enjoyment, such as:

 - celebrating Christmas and Easter (lots of presents and bunnies, no Jesus) and sometimes enjoy the religious music or cartoon.  Little drummer boy comes to mind.

 

 - I have told them the Christmas christ story and the crucifixion story, but as a curious historian not truth-sayer.  My 7-year-old daughter asked "did the government kill Jesus?" which is a rich question to ask an atheist/anarchist!  I didn't know whom to chew into more.  (my answer "eh, yea, them and the Jews")

 

 - Lots of good classical music has religious themes.

 

 - I let my in-laws take the kids to a play at the church which they enjoyed.

 

 - I sponsored a soup kitchen night a couple years ago as a gift to my father-in-law.  Essentially buy dinner for 200 or so indigents.  It was through a religious group and they said a prayer.

 

I guess none of this would be considered 'religion as a hobby'.  It's more  picking a few nice things that they happened to do and, in truth, hope that none of the belief stuff bleeds in while we do it.  One might think it would be dicey with kids, but it's pretty easy to navigate.

[nathanm]

so you are saying that there is something inherently bad in religion? I'll give you that there is something inherently morally reprehensible in presenting falsehood as truth, as a lot of churches are wan't to do, but when if there was an implicit or explicit recognition that it was all just fantasy, kind of a role play, would that still be inherently evil? if so, is DnD inherently evil?

Not really, I'm saying there is something inherently boring in the catholic mass.  Even if you do accept the religion this can be the case. 

 

I would also argue that many people who do regularly attend church are doing so for reasons other than religion.  The people who do genuinely buy into the stories are usually the more vocal and crazy types and they receive more attention.  This is just my experience, I have rarely encountered someone who was real passionate about religion. 

 

If a person has gone as far as identifying as an atheist I can't imagine they would still want to attend church for some secular aesthetic reason.  I dunno, the big stone building is cool, but not enough to make me sit through a mass.  Maybe the organ music, if they have one, can be nice.

[TheRobin]

I remember my music teacher once told us a story, when he visited some tribes in an african country (iirc). They had this thing (I assume religious but not sure) where they'd dance really hard and rhytmic and to drum music, and it got mroe and mroe intense to the point that it was so intense, they got scared and ran away from the group and musicians.

Only to later sneaking back towards the music and starting the process all over again :)Is it more that sort of "you can enjoy it without believing in any supernatural deity"-sort of thing you had in mind?

[AngryGerbil]

The subject matter of religion incites a lot of hateful feelings for me, so it's hard to imagine it from a different perspective like this...but I believe the only experience from regligous practices that would be of any value would be the community environment and support system it offers. When you're part of the same church it's almost like you become part of a family. At least in some religions. On a deeper level than with other group activities like a baseball club or something. However that supposed 'deepness' could really just be a hightened motivation to control those 'in the family', and would crumble once the controlling nature of religious belief was removed.I think connecting with loving groups of people can be a beautiful thing, as long as it's not from a controlling place.I hope that made some sense! This is my first post :x

 

(My account says I posted 6 times before actually, but that was 4 years ago and I have no clue what they were)

[James Dean]

I suppose I didn't really have masses or church services in mind, though I agree, they are dreadfully boring. When I have the displeasure of being forced t go, I try to access my inner anthropologist and see it from the angle of, "human beings are fascinating, aren't they?" But my smug detachment just makes it more of a snorefest... 

 

I guess I was thinking like Buddhist rituals, but not exclusively. It could really apply to any personal or small group ritual, i think the key would be participating. Maybe like a hippy-dippy drum circle or other nature based religion, you get a bunch of friends together and burn some herbs, offer up some food and dance around a fire while drinking a lot of wine. If understood that it was all total fantasy, it could still produce some sort of altered or exalted state of mind that could lead to something valuable.

 

I'm interested to know what you guys think, i'm just kind of thinking on my feet here. 

This said, my atheist family will cherry pick some things related to religion for enjoyment, such as:

 - celebrating Christmas and Easter (lots of presents and bunnies, no Jesus) and sometimes enjoy the religious music or cartoon.  Little drummer boy comes to mind.

 

Interesting point. This gets at something else, maybe not , "religion as a hobby," but more the inherent value of mythology. Maybe that could be extended to talk about religion as sort of 'participatory mythology'... hmmm

[Pepin]

Maybe like a hippy-dippy drum circle or other nature based religion, you get a bunch of friends together and burn some herbs, offer up some food and dance around a fire while drinking a lot of wine. If understood that it was all total fantasy, it could still produce some sort of altered or exalted state of mind that could lead to something valuable.

 

Well I think that would be fun and interesting, though that could be the wine. The hypnotic/tribal/spiritual aspects to self are underutilized in the modern day, and tapping into them might be productive in building relationships and self-development.

 

Personally, I could use some form of activity that allows me to let loose in a social environment. Though it probably has been good in the long run in so far as the context, I am really quite disappointed that I haven't ever had the sorts of experiences and feelings that others do during these sorts of events. I find this frustration rather difficult to convey accurately, and to some degree it is irrational.

However that supposed 'deepness' could really just be a hightened motivation to control those 'in the family', and would crumble once the controlling nature of religious belief was removed.

 

Could you expand upon this? The idea that is popping up in my mind is that theists are taking the "thou shalt not question your parents/god" from childhood and are recreating this sort of involuntary environment through their practice of religion. Though I might be far too tired.