An AnCap in Law School?

[VforVoluntary49]

This past week I started attending my first year of law school in Ohio. I became an anarcho-capitalist/voluntaryist about 8 months ago, which was a few months after I decided to attend law school. I examined how I felt about my decision to continue down this path and while I know there are going to be many career paths and decisions closed to me, I still felt/feel that this is the correct path for me, where I can use my skills and my mind in the most productive way possible and hopefully I can find a niche where I can advance or exercise many of the principles of philosophy we discuss here at FDR.

 

However, even I didn't realize just how into the belly of the beast I was headed. I have been sick for about 2 weeks, so I wasn't able to really prepare myself as fully as I had hoped and the emotions and thoughts have been coming one after another. It's true what they say-you can't unlearn what you have learned going down this anarchist path, and you can't unsee what you have seen. While it is an exciting field, the fellow students often brilliant and thought provoking (as are the teachers), and the subject matter and dreams of grandeur, wealth and purpose permeate the halls, I can't blind myself to the blood underlying the system. Every time a profesor speaks of regulations, laws, taxes, statutes, etc. without flinching, acting like they are just words on paper and aren't words with the power of guns aimed at peoples' heads, I cringe twice. When they speak in awe or reverance of politicians, judges, etc. with glowing language for the good they do, for the good our nation has done in the realm of liberty and legal freedoms (which in its small defense is more than other "nations") I can't join in, because I see the pain underneath it all. And the desire to forget, to bend on principle, to "play the game" ill be there, every day, for the next 3 years and beyond. It hasn't been bad yet, but making it through the classes, the internships, the bar, etc. while maintaining my integrity may be the hardest thing to do, and the desire to sell out in some small ways, to paint myself as just a very conservative, libertarian leaning student who still fits within the normal "allowed" spectrum is something I will have to wrestle with. I don't know what will happen if someone (especially a prof) asks me point blank what my religious views (atheist) or political views or familial views are-in that instant, should I stand on my principle and shoot myself in the foot in some ways, or should I find a diplomatic answer and trade the integrity of a fleeting conversation inn the moment for the ability to achieve greater goals in the end.

 

I don't know how this year will go, nor do I don't know what decisions I will have to make or how they will turn out. If any has entered law school as an AnCap before (or changed partway through as well) any advice, tips or just your story would be most, most helpful, and anyone else with advice on how to conduct yourself with integrity in similar situations would be helpful and appreciated as well.

[LovePrevails]

wow what a quandry

 

you never know, your qualifications may someday give you the knowledge to write insightfully about the absurdity of the law and how easily it could be replaced with something superior

 

if it's too much pain to stand you always have the option of getitng out

 

however, if you are determined to stay on you could see yourself as a sort of "anthropologist" - a researcher from another culture, in amongst the natives, trying to see and understand what really makes them tick and where they are coming from. You can report back to planet libertopia?

[John Corvidae]

I didn't go to law school, but I got some letters after my name, too, and became an AnCap while working on that degree.  I recently listened to a Sunday show and a woman on that show said it well.  You go through a period of wanting to tell everyone and then a period of keeping it to yourself.  I am a very expressive person and I still want to tell everyone!  I just reserve it now, for people I deem appropriate.  

 

If you are familiar with some good mainstream Libertarian rhetoric and positions, I would just recite them in conversation, if I were you.

 

I deal with this at work, too, and it's how I handle it.  There are some solid (and extreme) Libertarian writers.  Thomas Sowell comes to mind.  Even Milton Friedman said some things that feel good to the heart of a true voluntaryist, and you can regurgitate some of that, and hopefully maintain your sanity.  

 

I do not think you will ever get away from it.  I do not know why you want to stay in law school and continue, and (in all fairness) I have strong doubts as to whether or not you are making a good decision, but it is yours to make.  I think the correct answer for us who believe in civilized societies, is to turn our backs on violence completely.  That said, I have not figured out a way to do it and maintain my sanity.  I am working on one, though.

[pretzelogik]

This is a very curious situation.  What piques my interest the most is how one in law school, or those practicing, manage the inconsistency of the legal system.  On one hand, the system is based on rational argument, yet on the other hand the system is entirely arbitrary.  So, successful lawyers must construct sound arguments, to a degree, yet give credence to the arbitrary whims of psychopathic judges and uniformed jurors.

 

I am sure it is possible for a lawyer to do some good in terms of protecting the innocent form abuse by the state, but his allegiance would always be first and foremost to the state itself.

 

It seems impossible that a career in law could meet ones need for consistency, which could correlate to a high toward the ingestion of alcohol by those in the legal profession.

 

I understand your dilemma.  I cannot say that I would bail due to a commitment to philosophy, my curiosity might get the best of me for wanting the see the system from the inside.  It is definitely an anthropological expedition for one with your perspective.

[Wesley]

If i ever ran into legal trouble, I would love to have an ancap lawyer to protect me. I do not think you could prosecute people, but if you use your knowledge of the law to protect people as much as you can from the violence of the state, then that would be awesome. I think there is at least one law firm out there whose job is they sell civil disobedience insurance. People perform civil disobedience and buy the insurance. If they ever get arrested, then the law firm will protect them from the state. Or protecting people from IRS audits or other tax crap would be very worth-while.

 

You can be an immediate protector for people against the state. Just organize your law career around defense against the law, or entrepreneurship to help out businesses navigate the rules, taxes, etc. You can be like that person who joined the enemy team to spy on them and help people survive as much as you possibly can. As much as you eventually want to abolish the law, in the immediate future, we all need some good lawyers to protect us. 

 

This may not be totally relevant to your question I am realizing. I am only trying to show you that you do not need to give up your principles to be an ancap lawyer.

[Rayakins]

My first steps into Anarchism / Libertarianism were actually as a result of studying Jurisprudence as part of an ultimately unsuccessful (for me) Law degree. None of the arguments for the existence of or obedience to the law made any real sense to me so I began to side with philosophical anarchists. It was a very traditional British Law School and this did not seem to be within the acceptable range of responses...

 

Wesley's point is great though. If you look at the recent events with Adam Kokesh - he would be unable to do most of what he does without sympathetic lawyers on his side.

[VforVoluntary49]

I appreciate all the opinions, they do make good sense. The inconsistency is glaring, even within the first week of classes. It's so easy to get caught up in the glowing language used and how the profs speak of the system at hand, and I've found myself more than once wishing it were true, that we do have one of the greatest legal systems ever, that we do have a constitution that protects people's rights and that the system just needs tweaking. But I feel the anchoring of the philosophy discussed here, grounding me to reality, and through all the platitudes they spout I can see what almost seems like a current of blood underscoring everything said, and I feel like I may be the only one who sees it-it's a very lonely place to be, but it was my choice to make.

 

I definitely can never be a prosecutor-my goals are to be either a defense attorney, or explore options in ADR (alternative dispute resolution) and see if perhaps there are/can be functioning forms of dispute resolution (ie DROs) in society, and perhaps see how far or close we are to those becoming a stronger force.

 

My main goal for continuing to go apply to and go to law school is because law, words, the public discourse, etc. is the main arena in this current age is being fought, and I feel that I can be a voice or a shield for those who otherwise have no voice or defense from the state or the legal system. It will be like a drop in the water, but I do think I can balance it, and i Haven't been losing sleep like I did in my undergrad (criminal "justice") so I do feel I'm on the right path for myself.

 

Wesley-do you happen to know the name of the firm you were speaking about, or where they are based out of?

[Wesley]

I have no idea how legit or good they are, but I found the site finally.

 

http://shieldmutual.com/about/

 

I think I heard it on AVTM months ago and it appears they are helping him out.

 

I am sure a lawyer could associate with them if they are not a firm themselves.

[VforVoluntary49]

I appreciate that, and I'll definitely have to check them out.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on the ethics of the situation, or if there is a podcast or thread that addresses it somewhere (I'm currently working my way through the 800's, although I have listened to about a hundred random later podcasts as well). By the ethics I mean is the act of going to law school and passing unethical by definition, because in order to pass and graduate ill have to inevitably "play the game", and at least keep some things under wraps, or is it more like a state of nature or a simple calculation-I didn't set up the system but in order to achieve positive ends in the field I must do X Y and Zed, and the ethics don't come in until I am actually practicing or at least doing clinicals and have the ability to make those choices? Or did the choice of embarking upon a semi-corrupt profession already mean I had sold part of my integrity and I should accept it now? I just don't want to keep making choices based on the expediency of the moment or "the argument from effect" and then one day wake up and not be able to look attacks in the mirror and if anyone has advice on where or how to find the answer I would be most grateful

[Kawlinz]

I appreciate that, and I'll definitely have to check them out.I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on the ethics of the situation, or if there is a podcast or thread that addresses it somewhere (I'm currently working my way through the 800's, although I have listened to about a hundred random later podcasts as well). By the ethics I mean is the act of going to law school and passing unethical by definition, because in order to pass and graduate ill have to inevitably "play the game", and at least keep some things under wraps, or is it more like a state of nature or a simple calculation-I didn't set up the system but in order to achieve positive ends in the field I must do X Y and Zed, and the ethics don't come in until I am actually practicing or at least doing clinicals and have the ability to make those choices? Or did the choice of embarking upon a semi-corrupt profession already mean I had sold part of my integrity and I should accept it now? I just don't want to keep making choices based on the expediency of the moment or "the argument from effect" and then one day wake up and not be able to look attacks in the mirror and if anyone has advice on where or how to find the answer I would be most grateful

 

 

I don't see anything immoral about "playing the game". You aren't initiating force against anyone. I think it may be a (forgive me) taxing experience to go thru, emotionally draining maybe. If you can set up a clear goal of what you want out of the experience (to help people) it may get you thru those times.

[Wesley]

I think it is not immoral as long as you use your skills to defend people from the state. Using your skills to throw people in jail for non-violent offenses would be a problem I would think.

 

There are many areas in which people need legal help to avoid problems with the state or to defend against problems with the state.

[John Corvidae]

I definitely appreciate the perspectives in this thread.  The 'man on the inside' argument sounds good.  On the other hand, so does the strict philosophical approach.  This post does an overview of agorist philosophy.  I don't know how familiar you are with it.  The choices you make determine whether or not you will have trouble looking in the mirror against attacks.  Also I would sum Stef's views as follows (though of course let him or his work speak for him), Stef would tell you you did not load the gun or point it at anyone, and not to worry about how you work for a living, for most professions.  

 

Speaking of Stef, I would recommend just asking him, if you really want to know what he thinks.  To continue my .02 about it, I think he might say the legal profession is pretty close to the "lion's den," and that you might consider something else, but again, the 'man on the inside' sounds cool.  Maybe he will find that appealing, too.  Also the "need for an an-cap lawyer" is completely true, and he might agree that if you can stay the course and not lose your integrity, you should totally work that way.  Now, all that said...have I gone in enough conflicting directions yet(?)...I could also imagine him saying that both the legal profession is a soul sucking profession, as well as saying there's no way you'll pay for school debt and be able to feed yourself by protecting people from the state.  That you'll end up wasting your time doing plea bargains, which ultimately help the state or you'll fight cases that are not worth your time and do a lot of losing when it's not worth it.  

 

He has said on more than one occasion that lawyers are some of the most unhappy people...but that said, I'd guess he says it in accordance with 'man, know thyself' and much of the stress of being a lawyer comes from accepting and working with a system that does not make sense emotionally or intellectually.  He has also said on numerous occasions we can't reform the state from the inside (of course you are not trying to do this, but...) Can you tell I have absolutely no idea what where Stef might land on this?  Seriously I think the stress, debt, and effective state employment/slavery puts the practicality of becoming an AnCap lawyer in the realm of a Batman style project (one-man justice funded by a wealth of resources).  

 

Any chance you could share with us how you plan to pay for it, why you started Law school, even though you were sure you are an AnCap?

 

My experience with the state and with legal defense is that it's a rigged game.  The law is designed to criminalize normal activity, and the court rules are then designed to make it difficult to nullify any chance at true defense.  You might also read from the blog I linked to, about jury nullification.  There are some interesting posts there.  It is possible you know far more about the legal system than I do, and can envision some 'loopholes' an attorney could get through to produce an AnCap result.

 

But isn't it more likely you'll end up doing the same thing all the other lawyers do?  If you become a lawyer, to work cases about laws written by politicians, who are lawyers, against a prosecutor, who is a lawyer, what new thing are you bringing to the table, as a lawyer, that would be beneficial?

 

Check out the Marc Stevens show, if you have the time.  I would also point out that anything special you could do that might actually be effective would likely either piss off a judge or get you disbarred.  This is the 'conventional wisdom' that I've heard about the legal profession.  You might find out none of this is true.  Again, I would question your motives for 'joining.'  Are you in it for the money?  Did you do your undergraduate work and find any success underwhelming?  Or just the opposite.  Are you related to Bruce Wayne  ?  You might also read Aaron Carey's book Worthless. <end of soapbox long-winded post> Hope this is helpful.  

[VforVoluntary49]

A lot to answer there lol. Well, for starters, I was a National Merit Scholar coming out of high school and I got a full-ride to Ohio State, so I didn't incur any debt there. However, I went into education as my major and had a complete crisis of consience a few years in (I hadn't really encountered any real philosophy or libertarian/ancap ideas, except for Ayn Rand at this point.) I considered myself a libertarian but felt incredibly alone and isolated at OSU, not realizing the community that is out there and the additional literature/ideas/reading. At ohio state i went through the nihilistic/self-destructive phase most people who go down this path seem to encounter at some point in their life. I stopped going to class, became extremely depressed and eventually dropped out and moved back home.

 

I began working and started going to community college, bleeding dry the college savings fund my mother had saved up for me and I took out a few loans to get by, and decided to go into Criminal Justice (I wanted to be a detective or investigator, and potentially one day work my way up the FBI if possible). I got into another undergraduate program at a state school for my bachelors and was dually enrolled there and at community, not taking out many loans when I went through another bout of depression from the overwork and stress/anxiety of trying to catch up and finish my schooling (I was working two jobs and doing two full-time courseloads). I stopped going to classes again and came within one signature of signing up for the national guard as an escape and a way to make some money and finish paying for my school. My girlfriend at the time (my current fiancee) and just an innate fear is all that kept me from going. Right at this time I began following Ron Paul's campaign (as well as publicly accepted my personal beleief's as an atheist within) and I got hooked. I began reading Ron Paul, Rothbard, Hayek, a lot of economics but also a lot of alternative history as well, and really began exploring libertarian ideas, especially because I was no longer in school.

 

I reevaluated my decisions, and one of the ways to go into the FBI from a police background is to have a law degree. I had wanted to be a lawyer for years growing up (for idealistic reasons) but got cared of the idea in high school and gave up on the thought. Now, I began reconsidering it-not because I wanted to join the FBI again (I began to realize just how corrupt the state was at this point) but because I started to wonder if perhaps that was the career that was right for me, attorney. At this time, I found FDR and fully considered myself an AnCap. But law and being a lawyer really seemed to fit my strengths, and I was more than capable (mentally at least) of handling it. I took summer classes and finished both of my degrees in one year, taking out some more student loans (but still not many, I was working this whole time), took the LSAT and got accepted into a number of law schools. I have a scholarship at the one I am attending that almost totally covers my costs, and my family offered to pay for my books for school as my graduation present for finishing my undergrad. I'm continuing to work, my fiancee works to jobs and if all goes according to plan, I'll leave law school in three years with less than $20,000 in student loans, which is really nothing much at all, so I should t heoretically have more financial flexibility to explore a field I want when I leave. Also, my fiancee and I are very low maintenance people so dreams of riches or grandeur don't really entice us, and we can make do on an average salary.

 

The field I want to explore and why I decided to continue down this path is because I don't want to leave the field to the statists alone-I don't want to just give the arena to them. Even in an AnCap society, common "laws" (not governmental laws as in rules backed by force but laws or DRO agreements, contract structures, etc) will still exist, just not backed by guns. The field is corrupt and twisted, but there are still battles that can be fought and won. My goals are either to be a public defender, criminal defens attorney in general or to explore opportunities in private aternative dispute resolutions (and perhaps see if I can find or begin something that is similar to a DRO in this day and age-an alternative to the courts). I know the system can't be changed to torn down from the inside, but if I can be an honest voice fighting for people against the state that may change a few lives. In the grand scheme of t hings it may not make a difference, but to the few people who I may be able to save from prison or who I may be able to fight for a reduced sentence, it could mean the world to. I'm not sure exactly what I want to do, but I feel that this is too important of an arena to just give up on, especially when the s*** hits the fan again. If I and other lawyers with "ancap" views can be in the system and even in some small ways making our arguments and putting these types of ideas (even if they are only the generally "accepted" libertarian/minarchist ideas) than we will hav much more traction when the system collapses and restructures, as is inevitable. My worry is boxing myself into a corner, but I hopefully will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Oh, and I am Batman. So that helps too

[masterofmyself]

I'm currently in law school, and became an AnCap in my second semester of law school (I'm in my third year).  All I can say is fill your brain with good knowledge that can refute some of the dumb claims statists make in class.  For instance, today, there was a fellow classmate that stated that mineral rights to property would be better handled as government property - some simple free market econ can easily refute that claim.  

 

Focus on classes that encourage discussion and open forum, instead of a large number of students listening to a professor drone on about how awesome is the government.  Speaking with professors outside of class about your beliefs (aka "The Truth") is also a pretty good idea (at least it has worked for me).  

 

Everything I do in law school, no matter how painful it is, I just keep telling myself that it will help me get a job, and it won't matter what my beliefs are at that point.  I've been gravitating toward intellectual property law and entertainment law, because it seems these areas require more writing and contracting skills, and less of the "bullshitter" skills.  Also, it has helped me that I have lived with a fellow law student and AnCap the past two years, so finding like-minded individuals is very helpful!