My excessive hygiene compulsion and NVC

[Stephen C]

You're welcome, Stephen.

 

After typing this I felt calm, and satisfied.

 

It's only now that I feel annoyance, when you ask me this, because I interpret your question as you thinking that there's something wrong with me. I would like some recognition for how this is not the first time I've said these things, it's not even the first time I've written them on FDR, as far as I remember, and I've reflected on all this many times and with help from others too. So asking me how I feel, as if I hadn't thought before about how I feel about all this, seems to me either purposefully demeaning, or naive. Just like Rob_Ilir's question.

 

Remembering your previous questions to me however, I wonder if maybe I'm misinterpreting. Perhaps that's not what you're thinking. In that case I'm curious to know what you are thinking, what your purpose was in asking me this, if you don't mind saying.

 

I want to say also that regardless of everything else, I appreciate this discussion.

You mentioned that you felt annoyed at the beginning of your last post. In that post you expressed a lot of truth about your history and experience of it.I imagine it would be relieving to write it all out. You felt calm and satisfied, which sounds something like relieved to me. Ahhhhhh. What do you imagine I am implying is wrong with you, Marc?This is not the first time you have expressed truth about your history and experience of it here on the FDR boards. What I am thinking while asking you how you felt: "I wonder how Marc felt after writing this out here. When I finished reading his post I felt relief, did he feel relieved?"What is my purpose in asking this: "To gather information about your emotional experience"Someone gave you a negative reputation click on your response to me, but that wasn't me. I don't like that your response to me got a negative reputation click. Would the person who gave Marcs response to me this negative reputation please explain here why they did that? 

[Marc Moini]

I was already calm right after expressing my annoyance, before I started writing the history part of my post. After I finished writing the post, I felt satisfied, which to me doesn't feel the same as relieved. I didn't feel relief, because writing the post had not been stressful or tiring or anything similar that would have caused relief in me when it was over. And writing what I wrote did not bring me relief either, it's not the case that I had these thoughts and feelings in me that were difficult to express and expressing them had brought me relief.

 

Thanks for telling me that your purpose was to gather information about my emotional experience, but I'm still wondering what your higher-order purpose is, for wanting to gather this information. I think it's because I don't understand this ulterior purpose that I try to imagine various possibilities, and the one I've encountered the most often on FDR is the idea that I have some unprocessed emotions about my childhood that are distorting my thinking, and that is why I disagree with Stef. In other words, that "This is not about Stef, it's about you Marc." As I've been told repeatedly here for close to a year now, without anyone having provided me with any evidence for this claim.

 

I am open to other possibilities however. If I understand correctly, you say that you had no hypotheses that prompted you to gather information so you could validate or reject them, you simply wondered how I felt, after noticing that you yourself felt relieved. I'm willing to accept this but I'm a bit confused when I also read in your reply that "I imagine it would be relieving to write it all out." This seems like a hypothesis to me. Is it the case that I misunderstood, you didn't mean that you had no hypotheses to check, and you did want to check whether writing about my history had brought me relief?

 

If so, then I'd appreciate if you explained how this is not thinking that I had/have some trauma that I needed/need relief from. Which as far as I can tell, gets us back into the "This is not about Stef, it's about you Marc" territory, i.e. there is something wrong with me.

 

If there's anything I am omitting, or not understanding, I would appreciate having that explained to me.

 

I hope I've expressed myself clearly and without any animosity towards you Stephen or towards anyone else. As always, I appreciate when someone is willing to have a discussion with me.

 

[Wesley]

Do you have a "higher order purpose" when you are curious about the feelings of others? Why would someone showing you curiosity as to your experience bring up so many negative emotions for you?

 

I am a bit confused why someone asking you how you feel means there is something wrong with you. I often try to ask people how they feel with regards to a topic, especially when it deals with history or emotions in order to gauge their emotional response and never with the intention of controlling or manipulating or implying anything, but to be curious as to their experience.

[Marc Moini]

And what does it bring you, this curiosity about their experience? That's what I mean by a "higher order purpose", not necessarily control or manipulation or anything else negative. Would you please say?

[Wesley]

I am curious for curiosity sake. (or at least I try to be)

 

I used to have more "direction" with how I wanted to take things, until I realize how often I was wrong. Now I just try to be genuinely curious when I do not understand things in order to see where things may go. 

 

I think curiosity is a great value to have and it leads to greater knowledge to admit you do not understand and then ask to try and find an answer. Not to mention that it often lets the other person feel heard as they can clarify and explain in their own words.

 

Thus, I am still a bit confused by the "higher order purpose" and would enjoy a more thorough explanation.

[Marc Moini]

The way it seems to me, curiosity is a means to an end, and this end can be learning, or it can be discovery, or growth, etc. These are examples of what I think of as higher order purpose, or ulterior motive. Then the ultimate motive is happiness, for me.

 

Are you satisfied with this explanation? And do you now understand my reply to Stephen?

[Wesley]

I would disagree. True curiosity has no end as I understand it. If I had an end, then I would not be being curious. Some people feign curiosity in order to manipulate/ work towards a goal, but I would not consider this to be curiosity.

 

Lets take discovery as you said as an example.

 

"I want to see what I discover" is the definition of curiosity which doesn't seem to be any "higher order purpose", but a way to restate the same thing.

 

If I am trying to discover a particular thing, then it defines it out of curiosity by manipulating/working towards a goal and would not apply.

 

Manipulating/ working towards a goal is not necessarily bad, but it is less curious and more of whatever that goal is.

 

 

I also was slightly angry when I read the sentence "Are you satisfied with this explanation?" It felt to me like a condescending teacher asking a child if they now understand that 2+2=4 after the 10th explanation attempt. I may be right or wrong, but I felt anger and maybe a tinge of shame in reading that.

[Marc Moini]

Rob_Ilir, I still wonder what you make of the long reply I wrote in response to your question. I'd appreciate if you took the time to let me know.

[Stephen C]

"All human beings share the same needs : NO, some people want to be rich, some want to be famous, some want to have a family, some want to travel the world for their entire life. Given the diverse set of needs, this foundational theory is completely wrong."

What are the needs being met through being rich, being famous, having a family, traveling the world? Is it possible all these wants stem from the same basic need or needs?

[Rob_Ilir]

Hi Marc. Thank you for sharing.

 

I think it is one of the more honest things from you in this board, and I am glad it gave you calmness and satisfaction. Just as I would have imagined, writing about your true self would. 

 

As Stephen said, ahhhhh. Journaling is great, and having the courage to share it, just makes you certain. 

[Marc Moini]

Rob_Ilir, thanks for replying. So you were testing me, or rather testing yourself to find out if you can tell whether someone is saying the truth or not, whether their "true self" is in control or not?

 

I wonder if in general you're feeling somewhat unsettled, afraid or insecure, and if what you're trying to accomplish on this board by finding signs of me or others "being controlled by a false self" is to figure out how to have your "true self" be in full control, how to be at peace with yourself and the world. I think that's a great goal to have.

[Rob_Ilir]

Hi Marc,  I was offering the advice that I got that helped me. And I would not dare to offer anything I have not been through myself.The best thing I have found is my true self, I am still going through therapy, but I am getting better and in constant contact. I hope the same can be achieved by all others because the improvement is truly objectively measured. And journaling is the best cheap therapy on the spot.  

 

I still do get annoyed when people that have no idea about what I am talking about try to discredit it though. And my apology to you for feeling it was a test, now I know that you know about true selfs . 

[Marc Moini]

Hi Rob, thanks for explaining, I appreciate it. I'm glad you're happy with the progress you're making. And journaling has been and is very useful to me as well.

[Marc Moini]

I think what it is scary to most us is when we open our eyes and see the truth because it is most of the time overwhelming we wanna close them back but then it is too late we have seen enough and we are not able to go back to the old system but yet we still have to advance and continue the journey to see more and more of these truths and feel our real self our childhood suffering then we leave the old and unsatisfying rules, habits and defenses and see the world for the first time for its beauty but sometimes as it is, raw, ugly and dysfunctional everywhere but this time we are not afraid neither alone we have ourselves and that is the best gift someone can give to oneself. It is not possible to see this without feeling the feelings of the child we once were to be able see things with no idealizations and no makeups. Could it be that some still are on the fine line between repression and awareness, in an in and out movement because of fear of seeing the unthinkable and keeping childhood feelings of pain and anger at bay? I think there is a lot to learn about ourselves when repression is lifted or partially lifted so we realize that our scariest feelings and emotions actually didn't kill us but opened our eyes.

 

I hope more people in the near future will have the necessary courage and remember their past and see it and feel it. I am committed to myself to just doing that no matter what.

 

Here I quote a passage that I love from the book "The Drama of The Gifted Child" by Alice Miller

 

 

Thank you Thomas, I enjoyed reading your answers very much and good luck to you Marc.

 

Lens

 

Hi Lens,

 

I hope you're well. I want to thank you for pointing me to Alice Miller's work last year.

 

I finally read The drama of the gifted child, and For your own good, which I found free online. I realize I had gotten the wrong idea about her ideas from what I read/heard here at FDR. Reading her own words, I see that I had misunderstood, and/or maybe her views have largely been misunderstood here. I found much in these 2 books that I hadn't understood before, and it opened possibilities for new growth. I agree with everything she says, and I only see a few details where I think it would be possible to clarify more. I'm looking forward to reading her other books.

 

Also I want to thank you for your advice ("when you have a compulsive action that you want to do and you feel you cannot hold yourself from doing it like compulsive eating or gardening or anything that you feel you have to do is a sign that your inner child is calling for attention and at that moment step back"), which at the time I think I didn't understand the way you meant it. 3 months ago my son invited one of his friends to spend the afternoon here and afterwards I was tempted to clean so I went back and re-read that thread and tried to sense how I would feel if I was back to my childhood years and I realized that I would be very afraid of getting punished if I didn't do what my dad thought I should. So I found that this fear, which helped me avoid getting punished, and which I had hid from myself ever since because it was dangerous to feel it, was the deeper cause that was pushing me to clean. Simply feeling that I was afraid and recognizing that I had a need for safety wasn't enough, it was also necessary for me to recognize how lonely I had felt as a child from not getting the love and understanding I needed, and until this occasion after having read your advice, I hadn't been able to get in touch with it because I hadn't thought of imagining myself going back to being a child. for Is this what you meant?

 

Now that I've been reconnecting with this loneliness in addition to the fear and that I've been taking steps to meet my need for love, my progress towards being completely free of this "compulsion" and a couple of related ones I found in the meantime, has accelerated. So I'm grateful to you.

[Lens]

Bonjour Marc,

 

I was very moved by your text and I cried. Yes that is what I meant. Guess what! back then I didn't grasp it as deeply as I do now I am grateful to you reminding me that with what I said back then I was on the best path to freedom but I was so much afraid last year and I was very unsure of everything so much fear I had to deal with after that. Now I am much more free in my life and enjoy it more and more, like you I did it by experiencing overwhelming fear and keep on doing what it was good for me despite the fear. I had to let go many people and banned my entire sick and pervert family in order to get to where I am now. I do not regret one second reading Alice Miller. This forum helped me a lot in achieving my freedom but Alice Miller’s books are what really helped to understand my life drama and why I was so miserable. I literally put those books into practice.

 

There was also Stefan Molyneux if he reads this message I wanna tell you Stefan: Thank you so much for helping me to get out of a very sick 7 year relationship with my ex. When I called you last year I thought life was not worth living and didn’t see a way out. Now it is so different, I am smoke free and I love myself so much, much of the time. I am so so much grateful to you Stefan.

 

Marc I am sure for you it was about feeling that old fear after stopping doing that cleaning compulsion that made you aware of what you didn't want to feel for such a long time (almost your entire life), your loneliness, despair and above all your fear then you said AHA!! that what Lens meant. We really learn by experience not so much by reading.

 

In your experience you describe so many people's lives, people who are stuck with many compulsions like smoking or masturbating or even being in a bad relationship and think that is what they deserve in life but very few dare to overcome their fear and stop betraying themselves some of them think they need permission to be good with themselves. At that crucial moment you stopped cleaning, others may do the same just like you and ask themselves  “what is going on ?” “why do i need this compulsion ?” “do I have the right to know what is behind my obsessions?” "can I know it?" "can I leave my bad relationship?" very few ask these questions, because it takes courage to get out of denial, you have to know where you are in order to leave, but unfortunately when these courageous people ask for help from therapists or friends to find answers to their essentials questions they get dismissed sometimes even shamed and labeled by being too complicated or too much curiosity. I quote Alice Miller "Trust your feelings and your thoughts. Take them seriously. It happens quite often that people who read my books don't feel understood by therapists who are scared by the issue of childhood. You are free to ask questions and to test the received answers. The child was afraid of punishment, when she had doubts, the adult has the right to question EVERYTHING without being punished. Your doubts may be very essential, very important messages. Listen to them. They have nothing to do with paranoia."

 

Marc I congratulate you for standing up to your internalized father it’s like you said to yourself: “I will not clean, I no longer need my dad's false love and I will learn to not to be afraid of my feelings because I am no longer a helpless child. I will learn to love the little Marc and meet his unmet needs now, of love and quiet”. I encourage you to repeat that experience more and more even if it brings overwhelming pain and sorrow but pain doesn't last forever.

 

By healing you are also saving your children's future and their self-esteem. The more you feel your old pain the more you’ll understand and empathize with your children's suffering and needs and learn to meet them, also forgive yourself because as a child you were never guilty and had no choice but to live with a sick father, work for you and for your children you guys deserve ALWAYS a better life everyday. Share with your children your story your truth and tell them about your childhood it will help them to understand that it is not their fault that their papa has issues and it will lift unnecessary big weight from their very small shoulders.

 

This work takes time, much time so be very patient and don't treat yourself like your father treated you. Trust you feelings and DREAMS. The best reward is freedom and LIFE itself.

 

I wish you all the best

 

Bonne journée.

Mohamed (Lens)