Flirting and the NAP

[MysterionMuffles]

I've noticed that when I flirt with women and I make outlandish jokes or tease them, I get lightly slapped on my arm. Obviously those arm slaps are not aggressive and are just basic flirting body language, though I want to know how to classify that. It is still hitting, but it is also harmless.

 

Is this one case in which there IS such thing as non-aggressive violence or is it not even considered violence at all?

 

What I also want to understand is why it's such a reactionary thing for a woman to do when she feels charmed by a man. I understand that it happens regularly, but I want to know why.

 

PS. I'm not a ladies man, but I do like to have fun once in a while

Also I don't know how this topic got duplicated, but if someone could delete the copy that does not get any replies that'd be nice. I guess in the new forum format we can't delete our own topics.

[cherapple]

What do you say that elicits the light slap? And what emotion do you think women are trying to convey by it? 

[MysterionMuffles]

I dunno just like I said, outlandish jokes or something that teases the woman. No personal attacks of course, but the emotion I think that is conveyed through it is embarassment and release of ego. The way I rationalize it is: I said something that she can take personally if she wasn't of healthy self esteem, but laughs it away because she notices not to take herself too seriously.

[cherapple]

Can you give an example?

[MysterionMuffles]

Ok last night I was hanging out with a friend and every time she drank from a beer bottle, it would foam up and escape the tip. She wondered why and at first I just said, "I think if you suck on it, it causes the beer to gas up or something. Some kind of science crap happens that I wouldn't be able to understand or explain."

 

And she accepted my premise, decided to take another sip without sucking like I said, but it still foamed up. "Ahh why's it still happening?" She asked.

 

Then I said, "maybe the bottle got used to it and wants you to continue sucking it now." She just laughed and proceeded to try taking another sip, and while she was taking that sip, I almost made her spit it out because I said in a voice speaking for the beer bottle, "oh yes I can't get enough of [friend]'s lips!"

 

That's when she decided to give me a light slap on my arm and my guess would be that I embarassed her a little bit, but not so much that she would take it personally because our interaction just continued normally afterwards. 

[Pepin]

Uh, of course I posted in the wrong duplicate topic. I am putting my post here with the assumption that the other duplicate thread will be deleted. Anyway...

 

You don't interpret it as violence, and others do not either. It is not intended to cause harm and unless something goes terribly wrong: it doesn't. Violent acts require the intent to do harm against the other person's will, just as murder requires the intent to kill someone against their will. If the other person wants to be killed, it is assisted suicide. If the other person wants to be spanked, it is a kinky sex act.

 

To bring UPB into it, the act of hitting is not important to the ethics of the situation, rather the level of voluntarism is, in that the more force needed: the worse the act is. Cutting someone's throat is good for a doctor performing an emergency tracheotomy, bad for serial killer.

 

Even if this was something you did not prefer, it would be really be a matter of ethics, especially because the person is very likely to leave you alone upon being made aware of your preference. I'd put it more in the category of having to turn down someone who asked you out who you really don't want to date. It is" uncomfortable; awkward; not something you wanted to have happen or to have to respond to, yet it is not aggression in any sense of the word, and all acts involved are peaceful. Instead of using the term "hit", "light playful touch" would be accurate.

 

Bodily contact between people can be considered a method of communication, though one that has far less emphasis and use than it did in the past. Ideally, the person's sense of what is appropriate in so far as touch is communicated through body language.

 

Personally, I think it is important to not be too sensitive to unwanted bodily contact, but to be sensitive to people's wishes and to be aware of the the "don't touch me" messages people put out. If you watch people who are having a flirty interaction, there is a bit of improvised dance that occurs where the sense of appropriate touch is established without words. Boundary lines are crossed, like the man might put his hands a little too close to her butt, but a message gets sent out not to do that and it doesn't happen again and they usually continue having a flirty interaction.

 

This is a topic that I have certainly modified my beliefs on because I used to be of the mind that you should always ask before touching someone in any way. This likely came out of my desire to not have anybody touch me. I wouldn't have considered it aggression, but rather quite rude behavior.

 

I hope that was a good response. It is a bit difficult to respond to because in my mind it is obviously not violence, but articulating why is difficult.

[Stefan Molyneux]

They want to touch you, because of the sexuality implicit in most humor.

[A.I.]

It's not violence. From my observation and understanding, it's a socially acceptable way of touching you in an intimate way. If it's totally unsolicited, make that known to the woman or else you cannot blame her for taking advantage of you and are volitionally taking part in flirting and the woman most likely sees it as a prelude to coitus.

[John Corvidae]

This is like the term 'meeting of the minds.'

 

You don't interpret it as violence, and others do not either. It is not intended to cause harm and unless something goes terribly wrong: it doesn't. Violent acts require the intent to do harm against the other person's will, just as murder requires the intent to kill someone against their will. If the other person wants to be killed, it is assisted suicide. If the other person wants to be spanked, it is a kinky sex act.

 

[MysterionMuffles]

Well I definately preferred being touched in a way. I used to be a little reflexive about it, particularly when I just ended a relationship. But in more recent years I've learned to accept it because it is just playful and, now that I'm not so closed off emotionally and physically, I welcome the good touch. Even if it is a slap on the arm because as Stef mentioned, it's just wanting to touch someone to break barriers a little bit. Also thanks for the reassurance that most humour has implicit sexual undertones. I thought it was just me making too many sexual jokes all the time, but I've come to think "screw the people who get offended," by even the lightest of innuendo.

 

I've been working on being positively receptive to it, but due to my upbringing and maybe some other reasons, I feel a little touchy at times. It's less trouble now that I've started hanging out with women platonically again and have gotten used to the warranted slap if I say anything funny or daring. 

 

Ah Pepin I like how you described it as an improvised dance lol. I guess I should also start becoming comfortable with initating some touches with women, but I don't know. I feel really nervous or feel like it's very random when I'm not saying anything significantly charming or anything. All I could ever manage is a shoulder touch, but I don't know what causes me to retract from touching a woman's hand or anything else lol.

 

I guess as an expansion to this topic, a question I want to ask is: how can I be equally physically playful with women? I'm not one for slapping them in any way since I don't usually see guys doing that to women, always the other way around. Any advice?

[Stephen C]

It's a way of getting close to someone when you don't know how to love. 

[A.I.]

Well I definately preferred being touched in a way. I used to be a little reflexive about it, particularly when I just ended a relationship. But in more recent years I've learned to accept it because it is just playful and, now that I'm not so closed off emotionally and physically, I welcome the good touch. Even if it is a slap on the arm because as Stef mentioned, it's just wanting to touch someone to break barriers a little bit. Also thanks for the reassurance that most humour has implicit sexual undertones. I thought it was just me making too many sexual jokes all the time, but I've come to think "screw the people who get offended," by even the lightest of innuendo.

 

I've been working on being positively receptive to it, but due to my upbringing and maybe some other reasons, I feel a little touchy at times. It's less trouble now that I've started hanging out with women platonically again and have gotten used to the warranted slap if I say anything funny or daring. 

 

Ah Pepin I like how you described it as an improvised dance lol. I guess I should also start becoming comfortable with initating some touches with women, but I don't know. I feel really nervous or feel like it's very random when I'm not saying anything significantly charming or anything. All I could ever manage is a shoulder touch, but I don't know what causes me to retract from touching a woman's hand or anything else lol.

 

I guess as an expansion to this topic, a question I want to ask is: how can I be equally physically playful with women? I'm not one for slapping them in any way since I don't usually see guys doing that to women, always the other way around. Any advice?

Unsolicited sexual advances are most likely a symptom of a premature sexual experience...according to my experience and research. Do you see a therapist currently?

[MysterionMuffles]

No can't afford it right now. If you're implying sexual abuse in my history I haven't experienced any. Though I do vividly remember getting hit and neglected. I dont recall spanks on the bottom just belt strikes on my arms and body.

 

It's not that it's unsolicited, I enjoy the touch of women. Just sometimes I pull away randomly even in mutual interactions.

 

If I had to guess why my comfort levels are inconsistent, it's simply because I got no affection growing up so Im not used to it.

[Pepin]

Personally Morse, I wouldn't pay much attention to those previous two comments unless the can be sufficiently substantiated within the context you posted. To me, they feel pretty disconnected from the content of your post. Perhaps I say this because I have confidence in my block of text (not quite a wall), mostly in regard to touch being something that is completely normal and important in human communication which I feel I could support with psychological and sociological science.

 

The interpretation I get from your first post is more one of social confusion combined with a pondering of the ethics of non-harmful touch. If I am right about this, well it is something I can understand because I am continually confused by the untold rules of social interaction that everyone but me seems to know. If I am wrong about this, then we can say that I am projecting.

[A.I.]

"Children and adolescents who have been sexually abused can suffer a range of psychological and behavioral problems, from mild to severe, in both the short and long term. These problems typically include depression, anxiety, guilt, fear, sexual dysfunction, withdrawal, and acting out. Depending on the severity of the incident, victims of sexual abuse may also develop fear and anxiety regarding the opposite sex or sexual issues and may display inappropriate sexual behavior. However, the strongest indication that a child has been sexually abused is inappropriate sexual knowledge, sexual interest, and sexual acting out by that child.

 

The initial or short-term effects of abuse usually occur within 2 years of the termination of the abuse. These effects vary depending upon the circumstances of the abuse and the child's developmental stage but may include regressive behaviors (such as a return to thumb-sucking or bed-wetting), sleep disturbances, eating problems, behavior and/or performance problems at school, and nonparticipation in school and social activities.

 

But the negative effects of child sexual abuse can affect the victim for many years and into adulthood. Adults who were sexually abused as children commonly experience depression. Additionally, high levels of anxiety in these adults can result in self-destructive behaviors, such as alcoholism or drug abuse, anxiety attacks, situation-specific anxiety disorders, and insomnia. Many victims also encounter problems in their adult relationships and in their adult sexual functioning."

http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/brochures/sex-abuse.aspx?item=4

 

I'm just trying to help. I'm here for you.

[Wesley]

I do not understand how you got from that post that Morse has had premature sexual advances. I easily could be missing the obvious, but would you mind pointing it out to me?

[A.I.]

I do not understand how you got from that post that Morse has had premature sexual advances. I easily could be missing the obvious, but would you mind pointing it out to me?

From my experience promiscuous sexual advances, especially to a virtual stranger are signs of a lack of healthy boundaries due to undeveloped emotional strength in the brain. Sexual trauma is just one plausible explanation, but sexual abuse is more common than any given one would think. Please forgive my reasoning. Sometimes, I go right for the heart of the matter.

[Wesley]

When did he have a promiscuous sexual advance with a stranger? I'm pretty sure he said that he didn't do them currently and was wondering what the male equivalent of playful flirting with someone you are starting to feel comfortable with would be.

[A.I.]

It's completely healthy to desire healthy human contact, but what is occurring is false self-based and no offense, kinda shallow.

 

If you want to be shallow, more power to you. It can be fun to be shallow.

[Wesley]

I guess I should also start becoming comfortable with initating some touches with women, but I don't know. I feel really nervous or feel like it's very random when I'm not saying anything significantly charming or anything. All I could ever manage is a shoulder touch, but I don't know what causes me to retract from touching a woman's hand or anything else lol.

 

I guess as an expansion to this topic, a question I want to ask is: how can I be equally physically playful with women? I'm not one for slapping them in any way since I don't usually see guys doing that to women, always the other way around. Any advice?

What here is false-self, shallow, promiscuous, or implies touching random strangers? I am asking you to quote something that supports your assertions of unhealthy behavior as I do not seem to be able to see it. If anything, it seems like there is little to no friendly touching and he desires to have more as he thinks it should be more healthy and normal to have more touching (correct me if I am wrong). This seems not only not present, but opposite unless you can highlight where he said that he was being shallow, promiscuous, evidence of sexual abuse, or whatever it is that you are claiming.

[MysterionMuffles]

Hey thanks a lot Pepin and Wesley for your deeper yet simpler understanding of whats going on here. All Im wondering is the rationale behind arm slaps while my touches are light shoves or shoulder caresses and why the minimal pseudo violencr occurs. When I think of all the times Ive flirted with a woman it is hard to imagine them NOT giving me an arm slap. Its not unsolicited as it is my unconscious inention when I engage in playful banter.

 

AI, while I appreciate your concern and the time you took to look up that article, but Im pretty sure I havent been molested. Again my problem isnt too severe and never did I mention unsolicited touches from strangers. These touches are between myself and friends (past, present and whether I dated them or not)--and all have been mutually voluntary interactions. None of which resulted in casual or nor unsolicited sex. I've processed my history and still am, and all I can theorize for now is my fear of touch being rooted in neglect.I didnt receive any physical or otherwise emotional affection growing up so thats why Im foreign to it to this degree.

 

My problem simply lies in knowing how to appropriately touch a girl back and know when its neccessary. Also in being open to receive touches as opposed to the occasional backing away I sometimes catch myself doing.

[A.I.]

Hey thanks a lot Pepin and Wesley for your deeper yet simpler understanding of whats going on here. All Im wondering is the rationale behind arm slaps while my touches are light shoves or shoulder caresses and why the minimal pseudo violencr occurs. When I think of all the times Ive flirted with a woman it is hard to imagine them NOT giving me an arm slap. Its not unsolicited as it is my unconscious inention when I engage in playful banter.AI, while I appreciate your concern and the time you took to look up that article, but Im pretty sure I havent been molested. Again my problem isnt too severe and never did I mention unsolicited touches from strangers. These touches are between myself and friends (past, present and whether I dated them or not)--and all have been mutually voluntary interactions. None of which resulted in casual or nor unsolicited sex. I've processed my history and still am, and all I can theorize for now is my fear of touch being rooted in neglect.I didnt receive any physical or otherwise emotional affection growing up so thats why Im foreign to it to this degree.My problem simply lies in knowing how to appropriately touch a girl back and know when its neccessary. Also in being open to receive touches as opposed to the occasional backing away I sometimes catch myself doing.

I'm sorry if you took offense. I meant none by it. Shallow is an adjective like "sleepy." Sleepy is neutral and not immoral likewise with "shallow." Maybe you didn't take offense, but it seemed like a couple of the other guys might have...

 

We're all brothers and sisters in liberty, right?

[MysterionMuffles]

I don't think that's the issue, Abhorrent_Ideology...

 

At least not to me. I'm bothered by your misinterpretation of my entire thread, assuming that I'm getting unsolicited sexual contact from women and that my fear of being touched is caused by early life molestation of sorts.

 

I advise you to answer to Wesley.

[A.I.]

I don't think that's the issue, Abhorrent_Ideology...

 

At least not to me. I'm bothered by your misinterpretation of my entire thread, assuming that I'm getting unsolicited sexual contact from women and that my fear of being touched is caused by early life molestation of sorts.

 

I advise you to answer to Wesley.

I was answering to Wesley, Hannibal and you, but I thought one message summed it up. I'm sensing some hostility from your response. We can RTR it up in this bitch.

[Stephen C]

Personally Morse, I wouldn't pay much attention to those previous two comments unless the can be sufficiently substantiated within the context you posted. To me, they feel pretty disconnected from the content of your post. Perhaps I say this because I have confidence in my block of text (not quite a wall), mostly in regard to touch being something that is completely normal and important in human communication which I feel I could support with psychological and sociological science.

 

The interpretation I get from your first post is more one of social confusion combined with a pondering of the ethics of non-harmful touch. If I am right about this, well it is something I can understand because I am continually confused by the untold rules of social interaction that everyone but me seems to know. If I am wrong about this, then we can say that I am projecting.

I also have confidence in your block of text, Pepin. Do you feel that what I posted counters or does not align with what you've said here?

[Mister Mister]

that's an interesting topic.  I've heard women tell me that a lot of men do this kind of thing, lightly hitting, as a way of flirting, and they don't like it.  Not that they feel threatened, but they think it is awkward and seems like the only way a man knows to flirt. 

 

I can certainly relate to feeling apprehension about initiating touching.  a friend actually took me aside recently, and pointed out to me that I am oblivious when women are very attracted to me.  it seems like I often get to the point where they like me, as I am generally friendly, thoughtful, empathetic, inquistive, etc. but at a certain point I don't know how, or am afraid of the risk involved with taking it to the next level.  what I am coming to understand, is that if you are not agressive or threatening, and initiate contact, a confident woman will either reciprocate, or have a way of signaling they are not interested in touching, without embarassing you.  I hope that makes some sense.

[tasmlab]

My problem simply lies in knowing how to appropriately touch a girl back and know when its neccessary. Also in being open to receive touches as opposed to the occasional backing away I sometimes catch myself doing.

 

I'm a little rusty here (been married for 15 years) but as a remember you won't get to do a lot of slapping back as playful touching.  Being slapped though sounds like a wonderful signal that things are on!

 

Shoot back to her (if you are interested):

 - Eye expressions and smiles

 - More jokes

 - Clink bottles/glasses (not the flesh contact desired, but a connection all the same)

 - Rub her shoulders for a second when you return from wherever.  A compliment or recoil is instant hint

 - Put hand over her hand or arm when emphasizing a point

 - Capitalize on hellos and goodbyes with hugs and kisses, you know, like friends do.

 - Explain the shortcomings of Marx's labor theory of value and fractional reserve banking.

[MysterionMuffles]

 - Explain the shortcomings of Marx's labor theory of value and fractional reserve banking.

That will definitely get the knickers off a many intelligible woman lol.Hey thanks for your reply tasmlab I believe theres much I must learn about body language if its that blindingly simple, yet not so obvious.

[Stephen C]

I don't know anyone that can't appreciate a high five. Up top!

[MysterionMuffles]

Yeah and any woman who wouldn't want to high five about mutual agreements...is not worth flirting with

[Guest - Josh -]

I've noticed that when I flirt with women and I make outlandish jokes or tease them, I get lightly slapped on my arm. Obviously those arm slaps are not aggressive and are just basic flirting body language, though I want to know how to classify that. It is still hitting, but it is also harmless.

 

Is this one case in which there IS such thing as non-aggressive violence or is it not even considered violence at all?

 

What I also want to understand is why it's such a reactionary thing for a woman to do when she feels charmed by a man. I understand that it happens regularly, but I want to know why.

 

PS. I'm not a ladies man, but I do like to have fun once in a while

Also I don't know how this topic got duplicated, but if someone could delete the copy that does not get any replies that'd be nice. I guess in the new forum format we can't delete our own topics.

 

Assuming you have no problem with this behavior and everything is voluntary, I have an idea. If she is familiar with the NAP, the next time she reacts physically to one of your jokes, you could retort with "Stop violating the NAP " Who knows, she may initiate more welcomed physical contact. Of course if she doesn't know what you're talking about, she may react like this or this . So make sure she's familiar with the principle first.

[Mishelle]

I was once quite a flirtatious type and I think this is an important topic and I don't think these things change as quickly as the rest of life, so my advanced age should not matter so much 

So imho, a good guiding factor in all things sexual relatedness is to not forget "men set the pace, women set the boundaries"  It sounds old-fashioned maybe, but our instincts do not evolve so quickly.

That means that touching by a man should follow her lead, and once she touches you, even in this joking way, unless she is a buddy and already attached, that's an invitation for sure.  If you're not interested in her, could that be why you sometimes feel a mild "recoil mechanism"?  

If you are, here's the point you'd want to make it obvious by asking her out on a real date.  I don't think it's wise to become chummy with a woman if you are primarily interested in a romantic relationship.  Flirting is fun for it's own sake, but remaining in that state with someone eternally while waiting for him to make a real move will send an unsavory message, again, my opinion. Either he's wishy-washy, not dynamic, lacks courage, or not interested.  All not good and she writes him off in her head.

 

In my 20s I had a wealthy French boyfriend with a very stylish and sophisticated mother who wanted us to marry and gave me some advice I hated and thought I'd rail against just for the sheer annoyance it brought me, for a decade.  She said "To make a good marriage the man needs to love the woman more than she loves him."  I think now finally I understand what she meant, it's a question of attachment.  The woman will always find it easier to "attach" herself in partnership than a man will, so there needs to be significant pull for him, and this is why women should not ask men out.

 

Just some thoughts, welcoming rebuttal 

[MysterionMuffles]

Hmm...men set the pace, women set the boundaries is an interesting way to look at it. I don't know if there's anything empirical about that but it sure as hell does sound valid. Men propose and women dispose as Stef says, and because of that it's up for men to set the pace in the flirtacious dance as mentioned above.

 

I haven't even thought about the retraction part being my own way of setting the boundary that "yeah you can touch me, but right now it doesn't warrant that because I don't want to become close with you, at least not that kind of close." That's interesting to note because there have been instances where it was actually almost conscious that I retract when I knew I wasn't attracted to a particular woman. I would love to say that usually if I know that I am, that's when I actively initiate the touches, but that's kind of the problem I'm still running into.  Being afraid to touch beyond the shoulder and go to somewhere more intimate LIKE HER KNICKERS, just kidding lol, but like a woman's hand for instance.

 

I have talked to her about our friendship and what it means to us, and we've been pretty clear with our intentions, explicitly and implicitly. Like she will talk about awkward run ins with other guys she hangs out with who thought she was leading them on, and I notice that a part of me wants to be all like "haha suckers," but ever since I delved into self knowledge and the IFS method, I've had a more conscious part of me look at it more objectively. 

 

This more objective part of me listens to the clues she's setting about how she doesn't like being misinterpreted as flirty when she's just being friendly or vulnerable. Simply by opening up about her feelings and her life for instance is not an invitation for romantic intimacy, and I have to admit that in the past, I always mistook that kind of openness FOR romantic intimacy even though there hasn't been prior romantic build up. Knowing that difference now and picking up on that clue, I'm better now at respecting her boundary with that. Although we open up to each other about our childhoods, that's not an invitation to romance, but an invitation for serious empathy with a trusted equal who has delved into self knowledge.

 

Likewise, I've expressed my own distastes for women who lack integrity and how they also have to be held under the same level of moral responsibility and all that good stuff. As for what she gathers from all that, I'm not sure and I can't know since that's up to her to interpret.

 

All I know is, I'm glad to have a bestfriend who IS a female, for she understands the brevity of emotional vulnerability more than any of my guy friends who I can sometimes have conversations as deep as stuff about our relationship views and childhood revelations.

 

As for your last paragraph, I feel like I want to agree, yet disagree and think it has to be universalized. Shouldn't the women be the same way to have their own independance? Like, shouldn't BOTH parties have bigger things to live for than each other, and that having each other is a byprodct of brimming with so much self love that they will have to want to share that love with another human being? I dunno, just my approach on the gender equality angle and each party being self actualized.

[Mishelle]

Hi again, thanks for your reply!  You seem to have very good communication skills, even in the way you write, so I'm also glad you have this woman as a friend, it sends good vibes through all future  relations I think!

So now I'm curious to learn more about this potential  I am unclear whether you do have romance on your mind?  Flirting is so unique to the personality, I think.  It's not something easy to teach, that's for sure.  My hubby for example, would not be able to learn this in a way that would feel natural to him.  This is actually what initially attracted me to him, because it came off as very authentic, no posing, which is such a breath of fresh air in any circumstance.  Now in marriage I can say I appreciate it very much!

Have you had many girlfriends?  Have you imagined her as girlfriend?  Why do you want to get better at flirting? Are you looking for more of a sexual rel, or a true romance, or a potential partner?

Gender equality, yes, I get it.  I did not like hearing this advice and it really did haunt me for years.  I did not want to believe it, I was very independent, much more than any girl I knew, but as a generalization, it's true. This kind of thing can't be universal in any case.  Women are more co-dependent than men--it's our evolutionary edge, it's a thorn in our side, it's a block to deep confidence and happiness, it's biology because we are more vulnerable and dependent in our biology.  We will always struggle with this I think and right now we are trying to push against it in the collective, ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist, bully through it, but it's still there.  This is not about equality, it's about reality--no one can take the burden of pregnancy and infant care from us, this automatically makes us more dependent by nature.  Why are more women than men Statists?!  Once we really rationally deal with this as women, I believe we will become better partners.

[MysterionMuffles]

Oh yeah that's right, the whole biology aspect of women's co-dependancy does come into play. I think even in modern times with the evolved brains of women, it is still no match to the base needs of their bodies. So I'd imagine sacrificing love for career in those kind of over-independant women create an unnatural sex drive. They either seek out to many partners, or just none at all, without ever really wanting to settle down. This is just my amateur theory, but I think we're all built in with a certain level of sex drives, obviously unique to all of us, and it's a shame to stifle it with the denial that all you really need is to invest in capital to increase your self worth. Not in the whole money is evil kind of thing, but in the sense that it creates an imbalance of desires and fulfillment.

 

I've had 3 girlfriends, and 2 flings, and only 1 girlfriend I had was with me for more than a year. With my particular friend mentioned in this topic, I'm getting a bit more clear about where we are as friends. I mean I've known her for a few years now, and most of that time she was with another man, so I sort of got used to the idea of not being attracted to her. Yeah if you can believe that, I didn't care if she had a boyfriend back then, I always had this desire to be platonic friends with her. Though she became single a few months ago and that's when we started hanging out even more than we ever have before, and that's when the ambivelance struck me.

 

I don't know if I was in  denial or maybe I still am, but I really do believe I don't want anything romantic with her in particular. We connect on so many levels that I don't think even remotely touch on the romantic side. There was one week where I did fantasize about what it would be like if I were to be with her and of course that gave me some pleasure, but when I got to hang out with her at the end of that week, that desire kind of dissolved. All these traits I feel are compatible with me romantically, were only traits strong enough for a solid friendship than a romantic relationship. It's hard to explain, but basically I felt my mind creating a fiction around her that has nothing to do with who she really is, and I was only falling in love with that idea as opposed to who she really is. 

 

I don't know, is it weird of me to say that I can recognize what makes her attractive and not be attracted to her? And as a person who used to be very jealous and possessive, I don't get jealous when she talks about the dates she goes on or talks about the casual sex she has like I would with a woman I feel like I'm working towards? Well anyways, I haven't ruled out the possibility of us. I've just come to the conclusion that I don't feel anything for her right now, but I am open to let the relationship develop as it is at this rate and see what happens. Not in that passive, I won't do anything til she's close to have a new boyfriend kind of way, but in the way that I don't feel inclined to actively pursue her that way.

 

Anyways, yes I want to find a true romance with a woman I've never met. I like the idea of starting fresh and really getting to know someone in the process of dating. I've usually been friends with my girlfriends for a long time before I asked them out, and I wanted to try something different in my adult life as opposed to my teenage approach. I want to get better at flirting because I have some knowledge on how to from left over PUA knowledge (don't worry I've scrapped all the shallow stuff from my mind) and I tend to have a lot of fun with it. I just want to develop better habits that actually seal the deal as opposed to the momentary fun social exparament adventures I've been having since I've been single. Just been testing my self out so to speak to see my comfort and confidence levels etc. This is getting pretty long, I think I've bled enough now lol. 

 

Thanks for you input, Mishelle! You've given me so much to think about, CLEARLY based on my blocks of text I'm glad to hear you're in a healthy marriage that keeps you joyed, so I trust your word on a lot of what you say, if not all of it.