Appauling attept at humiliation

[Joelle]

I was not raised with 'organized religion' in the sense of going to a church or knowing any of the rules/stories etc of Christianity aside form very basic, 'Jesus is the son of God', and Christmas is his birthday. 

I'd never been to a Sunday mass, never been to any kind of church ceremony other than a funeral, not once in my entire life...

Growing up, when other kids in school would talk about their religion I always felt myself shrink and hope no one asked me any questions about 'my church' or anything, as I didn't want to 'be found out' that I didn't know all of these things. 

Looking back, I felt ignorant and like, not sure how else to describe it, but like a bad unclean person for not being religious. My family life growing up was very disgusting behind closed doors, shame, secrets and avoiding true self was paramount; much of family is still this way.

 

As a teenager, I think I would describe my self as having some beliefs that there was some sort of higher power, but that I would never want to become religious as it seemed like 'choosing' a religion, even one of the many streams of Christianity (which there are differences I guess in the many types, but I have no understanding of them- haven't looked into it and don't plan on it), would be like putting myself in a box that would separate me from everyone else outside that box and that the positive values people claimed to get from religion, for example, being good to one another, trying to be honest, giving to those in need, etc. were supposedly part of every religion as far as I could see, and so 'choosing' a certain one just seemed kind of pointless and like it would create arbitrary difference between myself and others.

 

Anyway, over the years I have just tried to be a good person and be aware of my impact on others, and try to practice the values I believe in, think before I speak/at, that sort of thing. I’ve leaned from agnostic and lately much more towards atheism.

 

This was my experience today- my very good friend and his girlfriend had a beautiful daughter, she is a year old. My friend’s mother is hyper-catholic (and in my opinion a very scary black hearted person- for those who have seen the Stephen King movie 'Carrie', think Carrie's mother...) and she insisted/manipulated my friend into having his daughter baptized. So he asked me if I would be her goddaughter, which I was happy to (as my friend is not religious, and so the meaning for him and I as we discussed is that I am like her very special Aunty). I told my friend I am not catholic and have never been to mass/church or a baptism and don’t know what I’m supposed to do. He said it would be easy, just to do what he does, and to just pretend I’m catholic.

So although I felt uncomfortable doing it, being nervous about ‘messing up’ somehow, I told him I’d be there for him and his daughter, both of whom I love very much.

 

So I got to the mass, and not seeing my friend, sat alone among the congregation. I did my best to stand up when everyone stood up, to kneel etc. I didn’t sing the creepy songs or mouth words amen or whatever else phrases require to be said repeatedly during the mass.

 

Then, nearing the end of the mass, we all had to get up and get in lines to take a weird cracker from the priest (I truly do not know what it is called, I’m sure people know what I’m talking about?) and instead of eating it, I just took it and kept walking (I thought about refusing, but didn’t want to offend, I thought taking it and not eating it would be the less offensive thing?). I’m a celiac so don’t do well on wheat, but secondly, I didn’t really know what I was supposed to do, so I just followed the person in front of me. Some people kept going back to their seat, so people stayed in a line and drank juice from the same cup, which I didn’t want to do. I sat down, and this fellow about two rows in front of me, stands up and points his finger, full arm extended and says ‘you did not eat it! You kept it! That is shameful!’ and everyone in the seats around us all stared at me. I had no idea that not eating the stupid cracker was a horrible thing to do, so I handed to him and apologized. Everyone all looked at me with disgust and as if I had just done some amazingly unforgivable brutal thing. I felt so much shame and fear. I really felt like I would burst into tears and I wanted to run out of the church, but I stayed as I wanted to be there for my friend and his beautiful daughter, and also because I didn’t want to ‘confirm’ my awfulness by the admission of wrong that running away would communicate (at least to me). This fellow kept looking back at me every few minutes with absolute hatred in his eyes, shaking his head, speaking to the people next to him (I assume about me and the horrible thing I did). The people sitting next to me wouldn’t look at me, but seemed to inch away from me in their seats.

 

I still can’t believe that people would behave this way, immediately after being read a long passage about humility and loving one’s neighbors (albeit a passage rife with hypocrisy and bullshit… a laughable line being “I am so proud of myself when I achieve humility”)

 

I feel better now after standing my ground in the situation (sort of) and not running away and not being there for my friend. I am still stunned at how horrible it felt to be there in that moment. I cannot understand what motivated this person’s apparent burning desire to make me feel completely awful and to make sure everyone could hear him berate and try to shame and humiliate me. Did this make him feel somehow morally superior?

Fucked up...

[Wesley]

This is how people act when they know they are wrong. They do not use reason and convince you of what is correct, for there is no reason to justify what they do. Instead, they yell "Blasphemy!" and try to shame you into compliance. In another age, maybe even force you into compliance.

 

I am so sorry that you had to go through this experience, however he was admitting that he was wrong by doing what he did. You doing different than what he did made him anxious and angry (as I'm sure eating the cracker was inflicted on him at some point). As someone who also has a gluten intolerance, I can also empathize with that part of the story.

 

I do applaud what you are trying to do for the girl, but this is the kind of place that she will be brought up in and the people who will shame her into compliance with rituals. I do not know what to do to help her, but you were able to not give in. The child may not have that luxury and a feel somewhat anxious about her future in that place.

[MysterionMuffles]

Oh Joelle, I'm just about in the dark as you are about this.

 

First of all, I'm really sorry that you had to experience something so horrid. The irony of the situation is that you, as an outsider, actually listened to the sermon. This man may have heard it but not really listened. Though I doubt that he did and I'm more leaning on him being the kind of person that simply going to church is a good thing without context to what the priest has to say during the only (imo) interesting part about church aside from the strange rituals.

 

I cannot imagine what kind of trauma this man have to had suffer to act in such a way. That's a clear sign of low self esteem and scapegoating. He must've had a crappy childhood of being chastised for not following in the edicts of his religion.

 

Speaking of childhoods, although you didn't detail too much about it, I have sympathy for you when you simply mentioned the whole idea of denying the true self. To me that's just one of the biggest F yous you can give to a child. But I'm glad you remained Atheist throughout your childhood and fought the urge to want to fit in just because people around you were wrapped up in mythologies.

 

I'm also on the same page with you about being a child's God parent even though you're an Atheist. When my neice was first born, I kept referencing my self as her God-father, just because I always intended to have a deep relationship with her and wanting to have a name separate from the other uncles she has in the family  

 

So eventually my cousin pretty much appointed me as a God-parent and I went to that baptismal mass...as an ex-Catholic and being pretty high at the tiem, the whole thing seemed just as foreign to me as it had for you. It was really weird that we had to waste an hour of our time to sit and listen to this old man in a robe babble on about God knows what, and then for him to eventually splash some water on my neice's head to appoint her a part of the "faith," or whatever.

 

ANYWAYS how this relates to you, let me let you in on a little info about the cracker you refused to eat.

 

Catholicism consists of this strange notion that a Jewish man named Jesus was the Son of God whose miracles were frowned upon by the Romans. He claimed to be the Son of God and they didn't like it, so they subjugated him to torture in front of a huge audience. He got whipped in the back 40 times, had a crown of THORNS put on his head, and had to drag a wooden cross over his shoulder for some distance, the very same crucifix in which they nailed his goddamn HANDS to!

 

I don't know the correlation, but basically the cracker you refused to eat is called communion and it is supposed to symbolize his flesh. FRIGGIN WEIRD!!! I know! But that's basically what you implicitly said in not eating the cracker. You were refusing to become a symbolic cannibal, and why that was offensive was because after all the weird ass rituals during church, to continue to validate your "faith" is to eat the flesh of dead Jewish zombie.

 

Yeah...my mind is blown trying to explain it.

[Sayo]

Does he feel morally superior? Probably, but is he morally superior? (i'm glad you know the answer to this)

 

I have to ask: where does one draw the red line? You wouldn't have to have gone though this experience if you and your friend had stood your ground in the first place. I don't understand how you were supporting your friend and the child by opposing your values and bending to the will of an explicitly evil person (your friends mother).  

 

 

My friend’s mother is hyper-catholic (and in my opinion a very scary black hearted person- for those who have seen the Stephen King movie 'Carrie', think Carrie's mother...) and she insisted/manipulated my friend into having his daughter baptized. So he asked me if I would be her goddaughter, which I was happy to (as my friend is not religious, and so the meaning for him and I as we discussed is that I am like her very special Aunty). I told my friend I am not catholic and have never been to mass/church or a baptism and don’t know what I’m supposed to do. He said it would be easy, just to do what he does, and to just pretend I’m catholic.

 

So although I felt uncomfortable doing it, being nervous about ‘messing up’ somehow, I told him I’d be there for him and his daughter, both of whom I love very much.

 

I felt so much shame and fear. I really felt like I would burst into tears and I wanted to run out of the church

 

Sorry you had to go though this nightmare. I wish you had stood your ground prior, instead of finding yourself in a situation where you had to save face in a church, its kind of humiliating. 

[Joelle]

Thank you all very much for your thoughtful responses. It's very validating to read them all, to feel that I'm not alone in my feeling like this was insane and completely hypocritical and again, INSANE behavior.

 

Morse Code Stutters- dead Jewish zombie hahahahaha :0) I actually laughed out loud at that! If this is actually the purpose of this ceremony, my mind is blown! In speaking with a friend about this yesterday (who I have introduced to FRD!! Yaaa!!) and we had a good laugh about this. Thank you for the time and thought you put into responding to me, I feel very supported and heard.

 

Wesley- thank you for your thoughtful response, I’m hoping that this beautiful little girl will not have to go through any of this again. Her parents are not Catholic, but the father (my friend for many years) was raised in the Church, but I think (and really hope!) that’s all the holy torment she will endure. I think that Grandma has little to do with them, but wanted to ‘display’ the baptism to her ‘friends’

 

Sayo- Thank you for your thoughtful response. I thought a lot about what you said about my friend and me standing our ground in the first place. I’m still pondering this. For myself, I never felt manipulated by my friend- he asked me if I would be the ‘godmother’ for my niece, we talked about how this would have nothing to do with religion (he too is not religious, having experienced tons of religious abuse and insanity such as this throughout his childhood) but that I’d be a very special aunty. I told him that I am not catholic and so don’t really understand what I am supposed to do as far as some ceremony, but that I would go. I didn’t feel pressured by him, and did not feel threatened at the thought of simply being in a church.

After I was sat alone and was actually in there during mass I felt very uncomfortable and pressured, but I think it had a lot to do with my feelings about religion and my lack of it as a child, and perhaps this added to my experience of trauma.

I did think about getting up and running away after this man aggressively condemned me and all the other people looked at me with hatred and appalled disgust. I knew my friend would have been disappointed if I left, but that he would have understood. I stayed because I didn’t want to feel overtaken, like I had to base my actions (IE to bolt) on this man, that he had the power to make me flee.

I’m still pondering this. Did I stay because of guilt? Did I not let this man run me out? I don’t regret staying.

One of the sickest oddest parts of this story is that the grandmother (super religious fanatic bitch) knew full well that I am not catholic and that the parents (her son and his girlfriend) are not catholic, AND that they are not married. She did tell everyone that we were catholic, and even asked my friend’s girlfriend to wear a fake wedding ring (which she didn’t). So… She was okay to lie to everyone in the church, to the priest, to her friends for the sake of appearances. So these ‘sacred’ rules of her religion, that she preaches to everyone, and knows inside and out, do not apply to her in practice, but, the rules of HER religion, not mine, DO apply to me, even if I do not know them….

 

On a side note, I am currently considering a DE-FOO in my own life, and I hope that witnessing this might help my friend understand that it is possible.

 

Again, thank you all very much for your thoughtful insightful responses.

[Hannibal]

Having faith is crazy, by definition right?

So this guy was a crazy guy, and he acted crazy (admittedly because you were pretending to be a fellow crazy, and got the script wrong ). Don't worry about it.

 

You are talking about the faith whereby a baby that doesn't live long enough to be baptised is condemned to limbo, because he/she was born with sin, without even understanding what sin is.

 

I grew up in a family with a Roman Catholic mum, an a father who thought it was all bullshit, but agreed to let her raise us as catholics (and admits that in crisis, he would ask whatever god there might be to save his kids - fair enough). We went to church now and then when we were very little, but after that we just went through the catholic school system (in UK btw). I didn;t really understand it all at the time, but now I understand what all the rituals are about. 

 

I went to a christening recently, i think the first one i've been to. They did an exorcism. Crazy shit!

 

I'm not belligerent by nature, and I'm happy going to friend's church weddings (often just to keep granny happy), but I'm not compromising on my values. I tell my friends that they are advocating evil thing    I'm always tempted to tell said granny, when the subject arises, that her faith is evil   I think it serves no benefit to someone that old though, and would be a nasty thing to do. 

 

Just mentioning all of this to reassure you, as someone who understands the rituals (often better than the acolytes themselves - e.g., people VERY often think that the immaculate conception is about Jesus' mother being a virgin) that it's all just batshit crazy, and to not care about what the batshit crazy people think.

[Joelle]

Hannibal - :0) Thank you ! Real smile on my face as I read this.

[Mishelle]

Joelle sending you good wishes and thanks for sharing this story.  Your modeling of strength, courage, conviction in this situation and with your potential de-fooing is really powerful--the ripple effect will inspire action and provoke thought in people and in ways you will never know and certainly brings you deeper into your greatest self.  Bravo   

[The Wall]

My goodness.....

 

Well, I dont know where to go with this. Im proud of you for doing what you wanted despite the clear negative consequences, and sticking it out anyway. I would just not bother with religious people in a consensual, social format. I would prefer lonliness or something. But, what you did was admirable, and your desire and clenched thirst to prevent your possible God child from being subjugated to this mental torture is deeply gratifying. Im awed. Kudos.

 

I was also not gonna mention this because its perhaps somewhat unrelated, but I wish I knew women like you around me! Heck, then we couldve joked about the guy that was provoked into emotional abuse. Break the cycle! Followers like this would probably also be killing jews if they were born in that time, or owning negroes! Its time to unite in stregnth, keep up the great work, it will only get easier to be virtous as time goes on!

[CrazyCanuck]

Sorry you had to go through such a rough time.  I'm shocked this happened to you.  I used to go to Catholic church because I was nagged to go by my parents.  Sometimes I would eat the cracker but usually I didn't. Nobody said anything if I didn't.  People were very kind to me so I don't know.  I knew people that claimed to be Catholic but they fought each other constantly, drank excessively, had sex with multiple people and gamble.  These people aren't Catholic they just claim to be.  Just going to church and studying the bible doesn't make a person Catholic.  

This man who was rude to use obviously wasn't wise.  Gluten interolance is very common now since there's all kind of gluten free foods.

If I was there I would have spoke up.  I don't go anymore but if a friend asked me to if they asked me enough times.  It's just wrong for people do that he could have said that privately.  Obviouly he lacks love and wisdom.  I wouldn't take a person like him personally.  You showed strength, tolerance, compassion.  

[Culain]

Where was your friend while you were going through all this? Somewhere else in the mass that you couldn't see? Did your friend apologize for subjecting you to an unknown environment?

[WorBlux]

The duty of a Godparent is to help direct a child in the faith. It really is supposed to be a catholic posistion if it is a catholic baptism.

 

@ That Popular Anti-Social Guy "I don't know the correlation, but basically the cracker you refused to eat is called communion and it is supposed to symbolize his flesh. FRIGGIN WEIRD!!! I know! But that's basically what you implicitly said in not eating the cracker. You were refusing to become a symbolic cannibal, and why that was offensive was because after all the weird ass rituals during church, to continue to validate your "faith" is to eat the flesh of dead Jewish zombie."

 

Catholics are even weirder in that it's not considered symbollic and that the bread is transubsantiated into the body of christ.  He wasn't mad because she didn't have his faith, he was mad because he perciever her as profaning his deity. 

 

Some satanists actually do pocket the hosts to use in thier own rituals.

 

Anyway a priest should explain that the communion is a catholic only thing, and demonstrate the local opt-out whenever there's a good chance non-catholics are in the pews.

[MysterionMuffles]

The duty of a Godparent is to help direct a child in the faith. It really is supposed to be a catholic posistion if it is a catholic baptism.

 

I'm my neice's God-father, but I'm an Atheist. LOL at my lack of Catholic duty. I'm actually trying to keep her rational enough so she doesn't buy into that crap. 

 

BTW my name is Mysterion Muffles! That Popular Anti-Social Guy is just a title.

[Dave Bockman]

I'm rather hazy on Catholic rules & regulations, but I'm petty sure it's considered some sort of sin (and not just a mild one like swearing or masturbating) if you take the Sacrement (the cracker thing) while not being baptized and also 'Confirmed' in the Catholic religion. So, using this finger-pointing turd's own logic, you're actually doing the right thing.

[cynicist]

I told him that I am not catholic and so don’t really understand what I am supposed to do as far as some ceremony, but that I would go. I didn’t feel pressured by him, and did not feel threatened at the thought of simply being in a church.

After I was sat alone and was actually in there during mass I felt very uncomfortable and pressured, but I think it had a lot to do with my feelings about religion and my lack of it as a child, and perhaps this added to my experience of trauma.

 

The funny thing about this is that you are describing the experience of going to church for a catholic. They don't really know what any of that shit means either, like why you would symbolically eat the flesh or drink the blood of the savior of the human race. Or how jesus is the son of god, but also is god (his own father), and where exactly the holy spirit fits into this trifecta of crazy. Most of them are just imitating whats others do.

 

Source: Me, being raised catholic as well as going to 'bible study' classes 0_o

[Wesley]

The funny thing about this is that you are describing the experience of going to church for a catholic. They don't really know what any of that shit means either, like why you would symbolically eat the flesh or drink the blood of the savior of the human race. Or how jesus is the son of god, but also is god (his own father), and where exactly the holy spirit fits into this trifecta of crazy. Most of them are just imitating whats others do.

 

Source: Me, being raised catholic as well as going to 'bible study' classes 0_o

All Christians have fully processed that they are worshiping a zombie who was created by their God by raping a young girl while metaphorically practicing cannibalism and bowing in front of an ancient torture symbol (while carrying another torture symbol around their neck).

 

There is no way that those actions would be evil or cult-like, so they easily understand and have chosen the correct holy actions and that all of the ritual are appropriate to show and teach to children.

[Jer]

I'm rather hazy on Catholic rules & regulations, but I'm petty sure it's considered some sort of sin (and not just a mild one like swearing or masturbating) if you take the Sacrement (the cracker thing) while not being baptized and also 'Confirmed' in the Catholic religion. So, using this finger-pointing turd's own logic, you're actually doing the right thing.

This is the case in protestant churches, so I'd assume you're correct Dave. When I went they'd always say it's for the believers and never pressure a person to take it.

 

One thing I noticed about churches in my area is lots of people who are like rejects and have no other place to go will attend just because they want some interaction with people. They never learned how to make friends so they go to a place where people are mandated to be nice. The church my in-laws go to actually buses in mentally handicapped people, maybe that catholic church does too...

[dsayers]

Looking back, I felt ignorant and like, not sure how else to describe it, but like a bad unclean person for not being religious.

 

This is one of the problems I have with words like atheist (anarchis, non-aggression principle): It frames the conversation as if theism is the norm/origin and atheism the deviation (complete with negative connotation).

 

I applaud your insight as to the dangers of labels putting people into boxes.

 

 

this fellow about two rows in front of me, stands up and points his finger, full arm extended and says ‘you did not eat it! You kept it! That is shameful!’ and everyone in the seats around us all stared at me.

 

So it's shameful to not eat a cracker, but not at all shameful to intentionally humiliate somebody who has not initiated force against another person? WWJD

 

In my experience, there is no experience more horrible than being made to feel as if you have done something wrong when you aren't even aware such a thing is under consideration.

 

Did you mention this to your friend whom you were there to support? I'm curious as to how that conversation might've gone.

[Seleneccentric]

When I was Catholic, every time I took a non-Catholic friend to mass, it was traumatic for them. I always took pains to thoroughly describe what would happen and how they should behave, knowing full well the level of social opprobrium leveled at me every time I made some kind of mistake in the past, and seeing the issues people I'd brought had encountered previously. Even with this kind of preparation, without exception, I never succeeded in steering someone through a ceremony without incident.

 

Bringing someone to any mass, let alone mass held for a special ceremony like a baptism, and telling them "it will be easy" is so staggeringly foolish that it borders on malice.

 

If it's any consolation, my guess is that when you handed the guy the communion wafer, you completely blew his mind (Catholic minds are easily blown, in my experience). On a less positive but equally interesting note, there's a good chance he's probably self-attacking this very minute over having been handed the wafer (I guarantee you he would not self-attack for accosting you, however).