Existing Alternatives Posted September 5, 2013 Posted September 5, 2013 Have you seen the movie Premium Rush? Without getting into too many spoilers, in the movie two bike messengers are constantly competing with and undermining each other, but when one of them gets into real trouble the other instantly comes through. Because… that’s what bike messengers (apparently) do. I was discussing this movie with a friend and the conversations switched over to family (of origin). My friend used the movie to validate the idea that you should hang together with your family regardless of how much you dislike them, because, when the times get tough, they will come through for you. “Blood is thicker than water.” What do you think of this argument?
Wesley Posted September 5, 2013 Posted September 5, 2013 Thats funny, because most of what I remember about my foo is them causing the tough times and only "coming through" when it was convenient for them to. It is a nice saying and would be great if it were true, but my personal experience doesn't support the idea. It supports the idea that I could see if I was swimming in water and blood makes it so much more difficult.
Pepin Posted September 5, 2013 Posted September 5, 2013 I really have a difficult time relating to this argument. I've always had the FDR mentality in regard to family, so I can't really understand these sorts of responses because to me they sound arbitrary and silly. Fundamentally, the relationship between you and your family members is no different than any other relationship, therefore they ought to be judged in the same manner. A question that is important to ask is: "would I choose to associate with this person if they weren't in my family?". If the answer is no, then it is important to be curious and ask: "why am involving myself in this relationship?". There is a common theme with a lot of my friends having racist grandparents. I believe the comedian Lois C.K has a sketch on this which I've heard is quite accurate. I tend to be a little confused by this, so I will ask them "why would you associate with these people just because they are family? In any other sphere, this would be a deal breaker", which they'll agree with and say reveal a sort of paralysis in cutting ties with them. The primary source of this from what I can gather (though it isn't mentioned) is the relationship to other family members, not the relation to grandparents. Refusing or ceasing to see them is likely to bring up a lot of conflict with other members of the family, primarily the parents. I can hypothesize some reasons for why I think this is.
cherapple Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 If you dislike your family, and they expect you to hang around and take it, they ARE your tough times. That's the opposite of coming through for you. That's them expecting you to come through for them, at whatever the cost to you.
Kevin Beal Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 In my experience this is a lot of what people fantasize when they feel the angst involved in realizing that their family is a toxic thing in their lives. It's like when people want to leave the church and all they are told is how terrible their life will be if they leave, how alone and without support. I not only think that this sort of argument is most often false, but also potentially dangerous if it means getting closer to toxic people who know all your vulnerable wounded spots. (Unless it's in an attempt to find closure in the RTR "the conversation" sort of way).
Existing Alternatives Posted September 6, 2013 Author Posted September 6, 2013 All true, but let’s try this… “Remember that time when they really came through in a big way…” (followed by an example) Or, “I’m sure they will come through” (meaning, “what you experienced so far from them isn’t really that bad” I guess, I'm looking for a solid counter-argument. Thats funny, because most of what I remember about my foo is them causing the tough times and only "coming through" when it was convenient for them to. It is a nice saying and would be great if it were true, but my personal experience doesn't support the idea. It supports the idea that I could see if I was swimming in water and blood makes it so much more difficult. I like the "convenience" factor, but you can't really use it in the "future" events... True, blood also makes you blind in a sense of evaluating other people's virtue (not just in a pool) "why am involving myself in this relationship?" That's the problem. Here you have a baked-in answer, because they will come through.... If you dislike your family, and they expect you to hang around and take it, they ARE your tough times. The counter here is that those were not really tough times. If anything, those times would have made your relationship even stronger. "Pressure creates diamods" type of bs - it is always hard to argue with truisms. ... toxic people who know all your vulnerable wounded spots.... Once again, "this would make it even stronger" argument... Let me throw in another one on top: "Who will push your pushchair around if you are immobilized in some way?"
Pepin Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 That's the problem. Here you have a baked-in answer, because they will come through.... There is no answer included, it is a methodology of judging relationships which holds that you ought to judge all personal relationships with similar criteria. "They will come through" is not an objection to what I said, rather it could be used to say that if this is a value you have for your family members that you ought to have the same criteria for your friends.
Kevin Beal Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 If the argument is... "If you accept that your family will come thru for you when you need it most then you should stick with them regardless of how much you dislike them" ...then there really isn't much of an argument there to counter. Does it apply to only the family? How 'bout the church? Your neighbor? What you can do is test the premise here with the fact that you seriously dislike your family. Can they come thru for you on that? Can they negotiate some kind of mutually advantageous solution with you? Can they admit fault, and work to overcome the negativity bias? Or do they only come thru for you when it's convenient?
cherapple Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 The counter here is that those were not really tough times. If anything, those times would have made your relationship even stronger. "Pressure creates diamods" type of bs - it is always hard to argue with truisms. Only if you actually have a relationship do tough times make it stronger. If you can say to your family, "I haven't been enjoying my time with you," or "I've had a tough time in my relationship with you," and they react with curiosity and attempts to make it better, then your relationship grows stronger. If they reject your experience -- by saying, as you did above, that "those were not really tough times" -- so that you don't enjoy your time with them again, in the act of trying to connect honestly with them (and they accuse you of being dishonest, or even mistaken), then this reveals that a relationship doesn't exist. There's only dust. No diamonds.
Existing Alternatives Posted September 13, 2013 Author Posted September 13, 2013 Let me try and rephrase the argument: “When you get into real trouble, who will come to your help?” Once again, in every movie we see that: If you need rent money – you run to your parents If you are bed-ridden by an accident – your mom will spend days and nights by your side Your brother will (sometimes reluctantly) join you in your fight against the bad guys What do you think about these? And sorry for using movie examples, I am sure they show more than normal society’s bias.
Kevin Beal Posted September 13, 2013 Posted September 13, 2013 If you think that your family has your back even though you dislike them, then that is a testable hypothesis. If they consistently come through for you, then great! If not, then that's something that will feel awful and propel you into action. Doing nothing and just taking it for granted, never testing it and building resentments as a result, is not a good place to be. Real Time Relationships goes into this stuff way in-depth.
wdiaz03 Posted September 14, 2013 Posted September 14, 2013 Let me try and rephrase the argument: “When you get into real trouble, who will come to your help?” Once again, in every movie we see that: If you need rent money – you run to your parents If you are bed-ridden by an accident – your mom will spend days and nights by your side Your brother will (sometimes reluctantly) join you in your fight against the bad guys What do you think about these? And sorry for using movie examples, I am sure they show more than normal society’s bias. All very nice but I ask you, "At what price?" Even a slave master "will come to your help" to cure the wounds from the whipping...that he inflicted on you moments earlier. Most people are not Evil all the time. Why not instead make choices in your life where you won't need to ask for rent money? Where you won't need to depend on evil people to bail you out.
Existing Alternatives Posted September 16, 2013 Author Posted September 16, 2013 If you think that your family has your back even though you dislike them, then that is a testable hypothesis. If they consistently come through for you, then great! If not, then that's something that will feel awful and propel you into action. Doing nothing and just taking it for granted, never testing it and building resentments as a result, is not a good place to be. Real Time Relationships goes into this stuff way in-depth. How would you go about testing it? (I have not read RTR yet) All very nice but I ask you, "At what price?" Even a slave master "will come to your help" to cure the wounds from the whipping...that he inflicted on you moments earlier. Most people are not Evil all the time. Why not instead make choices in your life where you won't need to ask for rent money? Where you won't need to depend on evil people to bail you out. Very good point. At some point, it would probably be cheaper to buy simple insurance against whatever event you are preparing for. I am sure there insurance products out there, when someone will sit by your bed 24hrs. Although, I think the problem is with events that you can't plan for - rent obviously isn't one of them.
cherapple Posted September 16, 2013 Posted September 16, 2013 At some point, it would probably be cheaper to buy simple insurance against whatever event you are preparing for. I am sure there insurance products out there, when someone will sit by your bed 24hrs. Although, I think the problem is with events that you can't plan for - rent obviously isn't one of them. Do you anticipate that you won't have good friends or a spouse? If family is all you have in cases of emergency, then it's likely that family caused that very situation of isolation—from which they later benefit by "coming to your aid" and calling it virtue. It's like that saying: The government breaks your legs, hands you crutches, and says, "See how much we're helping you."
Existing Alternatives Posted September 16, 2013 Author Posted September 16, 2013 Do you anticipate that you won't have good friends or a spouse? If family is all you have in cases of emergency, then it's likely that family caused that very situation of isolation—from which they later benefit by "coming to your aid" and calling it virtue. It's like that saying: The government breaks your legs, hands you crutches, and says, "See how much we're helping you." I never thought of that... Why is family considered the only people to go to in emergency... hmmm...
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