Desire for age similarity in relationships

[kalmia]

In a fairly recent podcast, I heard Stefan say that he wanted to marry someone "in my age bracket." I have wondered what motivates this especially among men who have been adults for more than a few years. I get why two people who grew up in school around each other would fall into this. But what about beyond that? Is it a carry over from age segregated schooling?

 

 

[Pepin]

It is easier to relate to someone who is closer to your own age as you are likely to have a lot more in common with someone of your own age in terms of maturity, experience, upbringing, and outlook, and life problems. It is somewhat easy to observe that younger people tend to be more immature and are likely to lack certain qualities that makes them far less appealing to people of an older age. In much the same way, someone in their 30's or 40's is not likely to be as appealing to a younger person because of the qualities they have. To be stereotypical, while a young person is likely to stay up late partying, an older person is not as likely to want to take part in this and would prefer to go out to a restaurant with a few friends. These are of course generalizations and there are plenty of exceptions, but these are some basic reasons why most people stick to their age range.

 

Personal, I'd prefer an older woman as girls around my age tend to lack maturity. I'd find the differences to make the person more appealing as that makes them more interesting. I also find the form of an older woman to be more attractive as the shape is fuller and the style is more elegant. I suppose a disadvantage I have in this journey to find a cougar is that people often think I am 16, when I am actually 22.

[A.I.]

It is easier to relate to someone who is closer to your own age as you are likely to have a lot more in common with someone of your own age in terms of maturity, experience, upbringing, and outlook, and life problems. It is somewhat easy to observe that younger people tend to be more immature and are likely to lack certain qualities that makes them far less appealing to people of an older age. In much the same way, someone in their 30's or 40's is not likely to be as appealing to a younger person because of the qualities they have. To be stereotypical, while a young person is likely to stay up late partying, an older person is not as likely to want to take part in this and would prefer to go out to a restaurant with a few friends. These are of course generalizations and there are plenty of exceptions, but these are some basic reasons why most people stick to their age range.

 

Personal, I'd prefer an older woman as girls around my age tend to lack maturity. I'd find the differences to make the person more appealing as that makes them more interesting. I also find the form of an older woman to be more attractive as the shape is fuller and the style is more elegant. I suppose a disadvantage I have in this journey to find a cougar is that people often think I am 16, when I am actually 22.

 

Was there ever a time in your life when you wanted a young, attractive girl just because "she's purdy?"

In a fairly recent podcast, I heard Stefan say that he wanted to marry someone "in my age bracket." I have wondered what motivates this especially among men who have been adults for more than a few years. I get why two people who grew up in school around each other would fall into this. But what about beyond that? Is it a carry over from age segregated schooling?

 

 

It's a biological imperative. The younger the woman, the better chance of her producing the man's healthy child. I, myself, am not opposed to adoption or, more likely, surrogacy. Young women are very aesthetically attractive, but I'm trying to look past base biology. Looks are fleeting.

 

I can provide links to articles or references to Stef's podcasts on the subject, if you'd like. It may just take some time to find them.

[ribuck]

There's a piece of folk wisdom that says the ideal age for a female equals half the age of the male plus seven.

[PhilipJ]

There's a piece of folk wisdom that says the ideal age for a female equals half the age of the male plus seven.

 

Interesting! I'm finding a lot of interesting ideas in "folk wisdom", tribal practices, and the like.

[PatrickC]

There's a piece of folk wisdom that says the ideal age for a female equals half the age of the male plus seven.

 

Interesting idea.. That piece of 'folk wisdom' makes sense in terms of a woman still being reproductive and a man having worked up enough resources to provide for them.

[tasmlab]

There's a piece of folk wisdom that says the ideal age for a female equals half the age of the male plus seven.

How it works out at different ages:

 

M: 16, W: 15 (not bad!)

M: 22, W: 18

M: 30, W: 22

M: 40, W: 27

M: 60, W: 37 (now we're getting dicey)

[PatrickC]

Why is 60 considered dicey with a 37 yr old woman Tamslab.. I mean the idea is just median of course.. We're not

meant to use it as an absolute, just a  guide I think.

[STer]

There's a piece of folk wisdom that says the ideal age for a female equals half the age of the male plus seven.

 

That piece of "folk wisdom" refers not to the ideal age, but the minimum age that is supposedly socially acceptable.

[ribuck]

"Age does matter: Immigration New Zealand refused to grant immigration application for an Indian boy, aged 22, married to an NZ woman, aged 59"

[tasmlab]

Why is 60 considered dicey with a 37 yr old woman Tamslab.. I mean the idea is just median of course.. We're not

meant to use it as an absolute, just a  guide I think.

 

the disparity looked wide enough and the two people in such different places in their lives that I would want to question motivation beyond love.  I'm probably hooking on to television style stereotypes.

[PatrickC]

Yes, I can see how sometimes that could be viewed as problematic. I suppose I tend to think a woman of that age is mature enough to make those decisions by then. But I hear you, it's not necessarily the most optimum position to be in perhaps.

[LovePrevails]

Growing up in my late teens most of my friends were older than me, I grew up with two siblings one 6 year old, one 9 years older

 

this gradually changed through my early 20s

 

Now I am the usualyl the oldest member in my main group of associates which ranges from around 19 to 27 with people at all posts in between, although my flatmate is older than me by a good whack and I have other older friends also,

 

I know this thread is more about romantic relationships, but I just want to say this rich age range in my associations has proved to be extremely enriching both to me and my friends - we benefit from bring one anothers experience of being at such-and-such an age at this time in history, I bring some experience, wisdom and self-knowledge tips, the younger members bring freshness and contemporary views. It's a truly excellent arrangement, I highly recommend having a group of friends that fill in an age range of a decade.

[kalmia]

With this recent Paul Walker discussion, I think the differences in when people mature may be overlooked. Young women are presented with opportunities with the opposite sex earlier than men are. Men play the pursuer, and it can take them a while to figure out how to pursue. Women get pursued simply by letting their bodies do what they are going to do. Some men figure things out early on, but they are a minority. This leads to desirable men being the older ones. I have heard Stefan tell stories about dating as a teen. I wonder how many of those who disagree with him about this age disparity issue did not develop in that same trajectory. I remember thinking many times that the average teenage girl who was much younger than me had years more experience dealing with men than I did with women. This is what happens when men are conditioned to self attack themselves into such painful shyness that they are taken out of the dating pool. I eventually saw it all for what it was after studying evolutionary psychology. Men want to reduce competition for fertile females, so they condition possible competitors to use their minds against themselves leaving more females for them. All of this "age disparity makes me puke" stuff sounds very much like the false moralizing dictates I heard growing up in a Fundamentalist Baptist Church where the pastors screamed angry prohibitions against teen sex, and I was a good boy and took them seriously. The pastor was eventually found to be carrying on a sexual relationship with a 16/17 yr old.

 

I know there are many situations where things are inappropriate, but please do better than "it's yucky". I have moved beyond worrying about social approval for my dating preferences. I am done with the celibacy that it gave me for many years. For other men who have confidence issues, one of the things you have to let go of is the worry about what others will think if you approach a woman. I think it is really amusing to me now when I see attempts to shame older men.

 

BTW, I have never fooled around with a 16 yr old, but there were times where I am sure I would have if given the right opportunity. I have with 18 yr olds when I was in my 30s though.

 

 

Dating Market Value Test For Women

 

Dating Market Value Test For Men

[PatrickC]

Yes, I dated a 22 year old when I was 35 and the relationship was probably one of best ones I had at the time. I do remember thinking that she was a little young at first and wondered how her family might view me. She was foreign too, so people could be forgiven for thinking we had very little in common. This wasn't the case mind and her family weren't at all reticent. She got to travel the world and enjoy some of my own hard earned capital. I got a very pleasent, attentive and great companion for 4 years. There were issues of course, which is why the relationship ended. But this had nothing to do with the age difference.

 

However, I'm not sure I would have even introduced myself if she had been 16/17 mind. It does seem like an age in which my senior years could have been seen as problematic. Whether other people felt this or not, I know I felt the immaturity would have been too stark. But I kind of understand what you mean by the shaming part. Often made by older women, that want to take out the younger women from the more successful older men.

 

At 44 I have little choice, but to date much younger ladies, if I want to have children. But of course, they would probably be within their late twenties or early thirties by now.

[Aikenrooster]

My wife is 27 years older than me. When I was 22 and she was 49 is wasn't a big deal, plus she couldn't have kids, and I didn't want kids, so that was a guarantee.

Aside from some other issues, the age thing is starting to be a problem, now that I am 37 and she is 64. She has a lot of medical problems, so I spend a lot of $ on that, which may or may not occur with younger people. She doesn't care about traveling anymore, and would rather stay home. She has the baby boomer views on everything and she really won't even consider libertarianism much less anarchism.

I would warn someone to think before they married and older person. Oh, and the won't change. I thought my wife would quit drinking, but she hasn't. She drinks, smokes right and left handed cigarettes and takes lots of prescription drugs, everyday, so you've been warned.

[kalmia]

My wife is 27 years older than me. When I was 22 and she was 49 is wasn't a big deal, plus she couldn't have kids, and I didn't want kids, so that was a guarantee. Aside from some other issues, the age thing is starting to be a problem, now that I am 37 and she is 64. She has a lot of medical problems, so I spend a lot of $ on that, which may or may not occur with younger people. She doesn't care about traveling anymore, and would rather stay home. She has the baby boomer views on everything and she really won't even consider libertarianism much less anarchism.I would warn someone to think before they married and older person. Oh, and the won't change. I thought my wife would quit drinking, but she hasn't. She drinks, smokes right and left handed cigarettes and takes lots of prescription drugs, everyday, so you've been warned.

This sounds so sad. I feel bad for you. How did you end up in this situation? I see one of the benefits of younger people bringing a youthful perspective and energy to things. It sounds like you have none of that. You don't even have children to bring that perspective. In many ways health and youth is a state of mind. Thinking young and acting you keeps you younger.

[MysterionMuffles]

I used to think that any age gap relationship is okay as long as the younger party has gone through puberty and that the older person isn't merely exploiting their naivity for sex. Also, if the younger person isn't just exploiting the older person for resources. Right? It's like the whole Lolita dynamic, where you think the older man (to take the generalization) is the predator, but it turns out that the young woman in question has the capacity to control him too. She knows it's dangerous for him to be in this relationship, so if he ever acts out of line, she can always get him arrested so he is forced to be as gentle manly as possible.

 

However, after hearing Stef's intro to December 16's call-in show about Paul Walker, I gained a greater understanding about the subject in a way I never looked at before. How a 16 year old cannot rationally reason out why they'd be in a relationship with a man double her age in any logical or consistent fashion. Especially if she's physically attractive, he's highly attractive and rich, there's just no way, no matter how intellectually intelligent she is, emotionally, there is no way to really guage the true value of her self in the relationship.

 

That mention made me lean towards more of a self worth aspect of it. If she's so mature that a 30 year old man is who she attracts, that should mean he must be immensly immature, in which case, why be in that relationship if he's gonna end up keeping her immature to suit his needs, or simply get worse over time to be managed by her superior  maturity? Yet, if he's mature, and somehow she's really mature as well, why can't he be with a woman his own age anyway since emotionally a 16 year old isn't there yet?

 

We can argue that there are some women out there who are of legal age that don't have the emotional maturity they should have after puberty is complete, but I would say that's just a defficiency independant from the debate of age gap relationships. By default, a 16 year old girl won't have that emotional maturity, but beyond that age of consent and development, it's a whole different problem on their part.

 

Also thanks to that intro speech, I guess I can understand what unmet needs could be residing in both parties. To me, age gap relationships are starting to look like this: the woman doesn't have a positive male role model so they need to fill the void for a daddy and mixing it with a romantic need, while the man doesn't have a positive female role model, one who has infantalized him and kept him immature, and must project that insecurity onto a woman that he in turn can manipulate.

[PatrickC]

Yes, very sorry to hear your story Aikenrooster. It reminds me of someone very close to me that married a much older woman. He was 16 and she was 32. They'd actually started the relationship as a late 14. I tend to not really understand the dynamic between older women and younger guys, because it seems to screw up the biological aspect unlike the other way round. Insofar as an older man has resources and a younger women has a more healthy fertility.

 

Regarding this couple I knew, well she had no resources other than a state granted property, because she already had children. And at 16 he was hardly in any position to gather many resources either. This relationship ended when he became 30. But frankly it was certainly an abuse of power on her part and most certainly dysfunctional in the most horrible of ways. This guy had no idea what he was getting into and bitterly regrets the relationship now.

[kalmia]

Why is it that a 16 year old girl can decide to date a 16, 17, 18 (or whatever the range you people approve of), but she is unable to decide to date someone older? What if the younger guy is also attractive? What about the guys who are fortunate enough to reach the 10,000 hours of mastery on a subject by their late teens? Attractiveness is about more than resources to a 16 year old. Perceived status and attitude are more important. I don't get why this guy in his late teens is somehow much more trustworthy.

 

Why can't they both grow in maturity even though they are over a decade apart in age?

 

For those who are open to expanding their minds, younger can be far preferable. Older people can become hardened off due to rationalizing past mistakes. Women who have repeated the cycle of abuse are not going to be open to questioning the ethics of parent-child interactions. What if Stefan were to take this whole emotional maturity argument to philosophical teaching too? It could be argued that he is exerting power over anyone under 40 due to them not understanding whatever it is that he has developed into. He has a stronger verbal ability and therefore will be taken as speaking truth. Maybe I am being exploited by him since I was born more than a decade before him.

 

Also, the biology of it is most definitely a relevant consideration. We are gene reproducing machines in addition to our higher cognative humanness. We cannot ignore all aspects. There is a reason that females shut down in their 40s and males can keep on going as they push the century mark. Get angry at biology if you want.

 

I think it's nice that a few of you (Stefan and maybe a few others on here) developed on a more healthy trajectory. But most men do not. The idea of dating as a teen for me is extremely foreign. It is one of the things that bothers me about ever having children. It is a stage of life that I do not understand. I think at this point I would just be very hands off which seems a bit negligent.

[PatrickC]

I don't really understand why the need to date a 16 year old in your 30's. Of course as it's voluntary then it's not really a moral issue. But it does raise eyebrows, when you can adequately meet a range of ladies in your 30's that are fit, healthy and fertile between the ages of let's say 21 - 28 who will share a better understanding of the relationship dynamic.

[Kody Palmer]

so if as men we are physically attracted to women who are fertile, as Stefan has said, and if 16 year olds are very fertile, as Stefan has said, how could it be that Stefan has never been attracted to a 16 year old female? I can't even tell anymore when I see a girl, I have seen 16 year old girls that I would have guessed were 24 and vice versa. If I am attracted to 16 year old females, should I feel ashamed?

a

And Stef brought up the point about the fact that this is considered statutory rape in Cali but  isn't the whole 18 year when you are an adult thing just a random statist number in reality? and then he says this is wrong because women arent fully developed mentally until they are 24 or 25 so does that mean that older men should  not have sexual relations with women until they are of this age because according to Stefan they are just not capable of mental Maturity?

 

I don't know about everyone else but I am having a very hard time with Stef's stance on this, it seems very unphilosophical

[kalmia]

What does it say about the human species as a whole when female fertility begins the downward trend before the brain is fully formed?

 

The free society is made up of memes just as any society is made up of memes. Males are more likely to think up these memes and spread them to women, and women are more likely to transmit these memes to children. Brains that have hardened off are not very likely to be open to the ideas of a free society and voluntary family. There is this constant question of where are the anarchist women? If you want to try to find older ones or make older women into anarchists, you are setting yourself up for frustrating failure. Call it sexist if you want, but men need to spend some time getting themselves together so they have some leadership qualities and then they can attract women who will be much more accepting of these ideas if the guy is more attractive. Unattractive men are typically the ones drawn to libertarianism. The only way to change this is for them to become attractive, and this takes years.

 

People make decisions based on emotion, and social conformity is the leading factor in deciding. Women have little motivation to think about nonconformist ideas. Men who have been excluded from the mating pool are more open, since they have already been rejected and have nothing more to lose. If they actually end up learning how to become attractive, they will draw in women. Men often do become attractive into their 30s.

[PatrickC]

What does it say about the human species as a whole when female fertility begins the downward trend before the brain is fully formed?

 

I think the point is, that since we live in a world of plentiful men and women, that we are better able to make more rational choices about who we have romantic relations with. Granted this has only really begun to happen since the industrial age, which has seen massive population growths. Not to mention technology which has made all our lives easier with more leisure time too.

 

The fact that sexual attraction can happen even with a physically matured 14 year old doesn't mean we have to act on it. Perhaps in an age of scarcity those urges may have helped our survival as a species in the past. But that's hardly the case these days. We are much better able to treat the minds of the young with a responsible degree of age appropriateness. I don't know about the 25 year old threshold. Certainly a 21 year old that is working and living in their own place, is someone that very likely possesses a degree of maturity. Compared to say a 23 year old that still lives with their parents.

 

Call it sexist if you want, but men need to spend some time getting themselves together so they have some leadership qualities and then they can attract women who will be much more accepting of these ideas if the guy is more attractive.

 

Yes, I think some kind of leadership quality is probably the only way forward for men who follow philosophy. Because anecdotally that seems to be the point reached at which people drop away from these principles, often claiming frustration as their reason. Whilst that can seem a long way off for some folk and I've yet to get their myself even. I do think if you don't have that as your end game, then drop philosophy and anarchism. Because it will be a world of mental torture and frustration otherwise.

[Kody Palmer]

ok but that isn't what Stef said. He criticized Paul Walker and his reason behind that was that since humans are not fully developed until the age of 25, Paul Walker should not be with a 16 Year old. I certainly understand your logic  here, but again, if we are attracted to women who are fertile, as Stefan has said, and if 16 year olds are very fertile, as Stefan has said, then how could Stefan have never been attracted to anyone 16 years of age? According to his own logic this is not possible and frankly, I don't believe him.  

[PatrickC]

ok but that isn't what Stef said. He criticized Paul Walker and his reason behind that was that since humans are not fully developed until the age of 25, Paul Walker should not be with a 16 Year old.

 

Can you give me the time stamp, if you know it. Because I wasn't under that impression.

[Wesley]

Can you give me the time stamp, if you know it. Because I wasn't under that impression.

I don't have the time stamp, but I remember it being mentioned too.

 

Here is an article:

 

http://www.academic.marist.edu/mwwatch/fall05/science1.htm

 

 

A National Institutes of Health study proposes that the part of the brain that restrains risky behavior, including reckless driving, and thinking skills is not fully developed until the age of 25.Jay Giedd, the psychiatrist leading the study, told MSNBC earlier this year that this finding came as a surprise to him because he used to think that the brain was fully developed by the age of 18.The continuous study uses magnetic resonance imaging to scan 2,000 people’s brains every two years. It has been found that teenage brains have extra synapses in the areas where decision making and risk assessment take place. Most of these synapses are useless and even get in the way of one’s judgment. Eventually, as teenagers become adults the synapses disappear, but the findings imply that many life choices are made before the brain’s decision making center is fully developed.

[PatrickC]

I don't have the time stamp, but I remember it being mentioned too.

 

Here is an article:

 

http://www.academic.marist.edu/mwwatch/fall05/science1.htm

 

Yes, thanks Wesley, I am familiar with that study. I'm more interested in what Stefan actually said, but I'll have another listen again.

Ok, I had a listen again. So I think you are over conflating and embellishing on what Stefan said. He mentioned that Walkers predilection for young girls probably had more to do with a word ending in UST rather than with love. This would fit with my earlier reference to physically mature youngsters being sexually attractive to adults. Stefan didn't mention whether he'd been attracted to them or not. He merely said they were 'functionally retarded' as far as a relationship goes.

 

I might agree that the above study Stefan referred too that Wesley kindly posted, doesn't necessarily mean that all people aged up to 25 are of the same retardation compared to a 16/17 years old. That said, I'm fairly sure Stefan wouldn't either. But if it still bothers you, then I strongly suggest talking to him about it. It's normally resolved things for me.

[Kody Palmer]

he mentioned that he has never been attracted to a 16 year old on this past FDR call in converstion podcast. He mentions it at the beginning when addressing the push back he had gotten in regards to his critical piece on Paul Walker.

[PatrickC]

Well, again I don't have much context. Why not approach him about your ambiguity privately.

[MysterionMuffles]

Maybe when he was around that age he was? Did he mention specifically as a middle aged dude he hasn't found a 16 year old girl attractive? I can't remember. Because if that's the case then that makes sense. As time goes by, a man would lose attraction to girls around certain age ranges. Like when I was 10, I was attracted to 10 year old girls, but when I turned 14 I couldn't find 10 year olds attractive anymore. I was more attracted to like 14-30 year old women.

 

And now that I'm 26, I'm more attracted to zebras and giraffes

 

If you're of healthy mind, your maturity will be synonomous with what you'd be attracted to.

[PatrickC]

Yes, MM makes a good point... I might think a young lady is pretty  or attractive at 44, but I am able to distinguish between what seems like a possible romantic inclination as opposed to one that just isn't something I can take at all seriously. However, if someone was 20 and attracted to a 16 year old we are talking parameters that are possibly reasonable. Making assumptions about Stefan's preferences or attractions, especially if they are the opposite to what he says is only likely to cause irritation on Stefan's part. And understandably so I think.

[Existing Alternatives]

I think it all comes down to compatibility. Compatible levels of maturity, interests, dynamics and future plans. At that point age does become “just a number.” There is something to be said about under-age dating, but beyond that the field is wide open. Do prospective partners share interests, laugh at each other jokes, plan on having children (and raise them properly), want to grow old together? Similar ages provide only a very vague guidance at possible compatibility, but should never be used as an absolute rule.

 

Modern medicine allows women having children in a very old age, so even biological clock is less of a barrier these days.

 

There is definitely a risk of one partner “slowing down” much faster than the other due to age, like in @Aikenrooster’s example. But age is just one of possible reasons (albeit most prevalent and most predictable). Some people “slow down” due to changes in interests, deceases, handicaps, etc. At the same time, there are some pretty senior folks that climb Everest, run marathons, hitch-hike across multiple countries.

 

In addition, opening up the age criteria allows one to select a better match. It is not that easy to find a libertarian-leaning female, why make it harder by self-imposing age restrictions?

ok but that isn't what Stef said. He criticized Paul Walker and his reason behind that was that since humans are not fully developed until the age of 25, Paul Walker should not be with a 16 Year old. I certainly understand your logic  here, but again, if we are attracted to women who are fertile, as Stefan has said, and if 16 year olds are very fertile, as Stefan has said, then how could Stefan have never been attracted to anyone 16 years of age? According to his own logic this is not possible and frankly, I don't believe him.  

 

The way I understood this was that, indeed women are biologically most attractive at 16. So, it is natural for men to be attractive to them. However, they are not fully psychologically developed. Therefore, they can’t rationally be expected to enter a relationship with a more mature mate on equal terms.  This is one of the examples of where biology and ethics diverge. Just because you want something, does not mean you should do it.  Same goes for Stef’s cake example – your body desires cake, but you really should control yourself.

 

Whether or not Stefan has ever been attracted to a 16-year-old is really not relevant, as everyone has their own tastes and desires. Just because it is natural to love chocolate cake, does not mean you are going to love it just like everyon elase. What’s more important is how one acts on their desires, especially when one is in position of power, money and beauty (as case might have been for Paul Walker).

[Aikenrooster]

This sounds so sad. I feel bad for you. How did you end up in this situation? I see one of the benefits of younger people bringing a youthful perspective and energy to things. It sounds like you have none of that. You don't even have children to bring that perspective. In many ways health and youth is a state of mind. Thinking young and acting you keeps you younger.

In the spirit of honesty, I made a rational decision to not have kids, for a few reasons, but the primary one was to "punish" my parents.  I grew up obese(I still am) and there is no way in hell I was going to allow them to make my children obese, so the best bet was not to have kids.  Also, I was raised in a pentecostal holiness church, so I didn't want my parents to be able to influence my kids in that regard.  Also, due to my occupation(truck driver), I believe that it isn't fair to have children, if I couldn't be there for them everyday.  I don't regret the decision, and, seeing how my nieces have become obese, and how my parents will take my brother's children to church, I believe that I have made the right decision.

Also, I can't bring myself to bring children into a world in which they've already been sold into economic slavery.

Insofar as not having children, I believe that I made the correct decision, although I think I'm mature enough to properly raise them now.

[King David]

It has been shown that rates of autistic children go up together with the age of conception from both the mother, and the father.  You could of course say this as the rate of genetic defects (not to dismiss autistics, their inclusion in the gene pool actually strengthens it: sometimes mistakes lead to great progress!).

 

Anyways, from that perspective we are not only shooting our genetic feet off (quite literally in the case of widespread diabetes), but psychologically, delayed parenthood means that you will not learn the responsibility and life lessons that are associated with caring for a family until a later age.

 

Just another sign of the societal decay we are experiencing these days...time to leave earth.

 

KD