What types of Athesim are there?

[ashesmi]

There are different types of Athesim, (cause we're all so divided), what type Athesim do people follow here?  and what types of Athesim are there?

[Wesley]

I would not think that anyone would say they "follow" some form of atheism any more than I consider myself a "follower" of anti-leprechauns or anti-fairies.

 

Atheism is not something you follow, but that you recognize the fact that god does not exist (at least as commonly defined). The attempt is to use logic, reason and evidence to determine the possibility of god existing, and when you realize the number of contradictions present in the concept of "god" then you realize that it is impossible for something that contradicts itself to exist.

 

For more info you can listen to some of the early podcasts on religion and/or do a search for some of the atheist threads on the boards.

[ashesmi]

I would not think that anyone would say they "follow" some form of atheism any more than I consider myself a "follower" of anti-leprechauns or anti-fairies.

 

Atheism is not something you follow, but that you recognize the fact that god does not exist (at least as commonly defined). The attempt is to use logic, reason and evidence to determine the possibility of god existing, and when you realize the number of contradictions present in the concept of "god" then you realize that it is impossible for something that contradicts itself to exist.

 

For more info you can listen to some of the early podcasts on religion and/or do a search for some of the atheist threads on the boards.

 

 

I don't have reliable Internet, I will try to get some earlier Pod-casts?  Don't want to waist Your time, but if you know of a good one that can show me where Stephan is with Atheism I would be grateful, I am not Lazy, I am without many resources,  being Time and Internet....Thank you so much for your interpretation of Atheism.

 

I am not an Atheist, but I am not Religious Either, I don't go to Church or Worship an Esoteric God.  I Worship Nature, being the Trees the Birds the Living Life I see in forest (as well as the City), the nonliving Life like Water and Air and Earth.    I define Worship as (LOVE and RESPECT)  so I Love and Respect the Physical Living Life I See around me.  I experience all other creatures on this planet as my Brothers and Sisters, who need our protection from this infection we call the Self.   

 

I have Friends and Family who Are Complete Atheists and I have Friends and Family who are Completely Religious.  I Love Both of them and Respect their Views, BUT there are some I knew in the PAST who were FUNDAMENTAL Religious Followers (Oxymoron) as well as FUNDAMENTALIST Atheists. 

 

It appears you are Not a FUNDAMENTALIST Atheists, we are off to a Very good start

 

"Atheism is not something you follow, but that you recognize the fact that god does not exist (at least as commonly defined). The attempt is to use logic, reason and evidence to determine the possibility of god existing, and when you realize the number of contradictions present in the concept of "god" then you realize that it is impossible for something that contradicts itself to exist."

 

I can relate to much of what you said except the evidence part.  But that is OK, over time Everything I understand will be redefined and understood another way as New Evidence enlightens me further.  In the Scope of the Bigger Picture I am Just as RIGHT Today as I was when I was 2 Years Old, just I can read better.  I am Not Blinded by the Fact in Faith (Religion) and I am Not Blinded By My Faith In Fact (Science).

 

Do I fit in here?  I do Not want to step on anyones toes and threaten their understanding, Belief.  Am I allowed to discuss Atheism here with people here if I am Open Minded?

 

I am Not Agnostic as well, just a heads up...so what am I?

[Wesley]

You can start with podcasts 13-15, but if you go to the podcast page, in the bottom right you can select the Category: Religion/Atheism and just start from the beginning until you get the idea.

 

In general there are two types of definitions for god.

 

1. The Contradiction

A god that exists, but without form, that is omnipotent and omniscient, that solves the problem of creation, but wasnt himself created  (and many many other things).

 

2. The Attribution

God is the world, or god is the series of scientific steps that lead to the world being created. Luckily, we already have words for these or will find a way that the happened scientifically, thus you are just attributing something else to the idea of god by calling something else by a different name.

 

This may be a good time to bring up ignosticism which is the idea that god is essentially a meaningless term and cannot be evaluated until it is properly defined using other terms.

 

I also would like to make clear that the goal is not my opinion, or your opinion, or open-mindedness. The goal is to figure out what is true and is irrelevant of anyone's opinions. Truth about existence is external to the mind.

[ashesmi]

You can start with podcasts 13-15, but if you go to the podcast page, in the bottom right you can select the Category: Religion/Atheism and just start from the beginning until you get the idea.

 

In general there are two types of definitions for god.

 

1. The Contradiction

A god that exists, but without form, that is omnipotent and omniscient, that solves the problem of creation, but wasnt himself created  (and many many other things).

 

2. The Attribution

God is the world, or god is the series of scientific steps that lead to the world being created. Luckily, we already have words for these or will find a way that the happened scientifically, thus you are just attributing something else to the idea of god by calling something else by a different name.

 

This may be a good time to bring up ignosticism which is the idea that god is essentially a meaningless term and cannot be evaluated until it is properly defined using other terms.

 

I am trying to think of something to say!  My head hurts trying to understand these terms and this thinking 

 

I will download all the Episodes you described and Listen to them on my Ipod. 

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH  

 

Be well and hope to discuss many things with You as well as others on this site.  I was on the Chat part of the site yesterday and everyone was polite and very warm.  I felt that Refreshing!

 

PEACE! 

[ashesmi]

You can start with podcasts 13-15, but if you go to the podcast page, in the bottom right you can select the Category: Religion/Atheism and just start from the beginning until you get the idea.

 

In general there are two types of definitions for god.

 

1. The Contradiction

A god that exists, but without form, that is omnipotent and omniscient, that solves the problem of creation, but wasnt himself created  (and many many other things).

 

2. The Attribution

God is the world, or god is the series of scientific steps that lead to the world being created. Luckily, we already have words for these or will find a way that the happened scientifically, thus you are just attributing something else to the idea of god by calling something else by a different name.

 

This may be a good time to bring up ignosticism which is the idea that god is essentially a meaningless term and cannot be evaluated until it is properly defined using other terms.

 

I also would like to make clear that the goal is not my opinion, or your opinion, or open-mindedness. The goal is to figure out what is true and is irrelevant of anyone's opinions. Truth about existence is external to the mind.

 

Here are different typse of Atheism and Religion   I got it from Joe Rogans Facebook Feed...JOE YOU ROCK! 

 

I would Subistute the Word Beliefe for Personal Experience (or Non Personal Experience).   Some people Experience a Higher sense of Awareness that others do not, they call this God...Others that do not Experience this Experience say there is No God...

 

I would think that before I can say God does Not Exist (or Exists), I would have to be really clear on the Deffinition of what God "IS", and I would also have to have a Deffinition on what Existance "IS" as well.  There are 2 Things...1 is God and 2 is Existance...

 

I am going to try and Download the Mp3's Stephan has done on Atheism and Existance....I want to truly Understand his Understanding by his deffinition of these 2 terms....

[Wesley]

I am going to try and Download the Mp3's Stephan has done on Atheism and Existance....I want to truly Understand his Understanding by his deffinition of these 2 terms....

If you want to learn about existence, knowledge, truth and such, I would spend some time going through and understanding the Intro to Philosophy series. In general it is a great thing to start with before getting into these kind of discussions and will be helpful to you I think.

[ashesmi]

If you want to learn about existence, knowledge, truth and such, I would spend some time going through and understanding the Intro to Philosophy series. In general it is a great thing to start with before getting into these kind of discussions and will be helpful to you I think.

 

Thanks Wesley, I will attempt a download of these MP3's as well. I will understand these terms from Stephan's perspective psychology much better this way.  I am NOT Here to Change Stephans or Anyones Views on God Existing or Non Existing, I am Just here to Understand where Stephan Sits (for today) on these deffinitions.  Then I can begin discussing with others here on the Tangent of Belief they are (fot the time) Subscribed to.  Again I am Only Here to Understand...not force my Experiences or Lack of Experience's on others.  I think we will have some very good discussions

[rogerhicks]

That is a very interesting question which has often inhibited me from saying that I'm an "atheist", because others tend to assume a particular kind of atheism, which is cold, loveless, materialistic and mechanical, and devoid of purpose and meaning. My atheism is really a rejection of other people's concepts of God, especially established religions' with their "sacred scriptures", the principal purpose of which is to effect social and political control over believers. I have my own concept of God, which I know is a product of my own imagination, but which I find very useful indeed, and comforting. The great thing about my God is that he is always on my side. Otherwise he gets a bollocking from me! I like to think that there may be a deeper reality behind my imaginings of God, although I have no way of knowing whether there really is or not.We need some kind of religion (L. religare = to bind together), in order to function as a society. It is the lack or inadequacy of religion (especially a shared moral code)  which makes modern society so disfunctional. We need to create new, rational religions adapted to the needs of modern society (once we have decided what these are), and I see no reason why these religions should not employ concepts of God, just as I do.Whether it objectively does or not, I need to FEEL that life, especially my own life, has meaning and purpose. Religion and a concept of God, provided they are freely conceived, rather than imposed from the top down, can play very important roles in this regard.

[Wuzzums]

 

 

what type Athesim do people follow here?

 

What type of non-guitar playing do people like?

[tasmlab]

Just to muddy the waters with technicalities for no good reason, there do exist "religious atheists", with the largest example being Hindus who believe in the practices, traditions and supernatural forces and such (Karma, Dharma) but don't believe in any of their deities (Vishnu, Shiva, et al).

 

For general purposes, though, I would lump folks who accept rationality as atheists and then there's everybody else regardless if they worship trees or make up God in their head.

 

 

 

What you said here gave me pause and sounded awful to me:  "  I experience all other creatures on this planet as my Brothers and Sisters, who need our protection from this infection we call the Self."

[Guest darkskyabove]

I am Not Agnostic as well, just a heads up...so what am I?

 

Why not just be a human? Why worry about labels? It's one thing to use labels, when necessary, to make sense of the categories under discussion. But why, oh why, do people insist on labeling themselves?

[rogerhicks]

Why not just be a human? Why worry about labels? It's one thing to use labels, when necessary, to make sense of the categories under discussion. But why, oh why, do people insist on labeling themselves?

Surely, we need "labels", i.e. to name things, in order to think about them and relate to them.

 

We label ourselves in order to form a particular identity, which distinguishes us from others and influences how we relate to them.

 

Homo sapiens is nothing if not an inherently and intensely tribal animal. One's identity within the tribe is extremely important, as is knowing which tribe, or group of tribes one belongs to, which is a real problem in modern, mass and multi-ethnic society.

[Lians]

I think the topic of religion has been somewhat artificially divided into different camps. There can be 3 answers to the question, "Does God exist?" "God exists." "God doesn't exist." "I don't know." The answer to this question is binary and I'm allowing for the possibility that people have no idea what the concept of God entails. Everything else that people stuff in between these 3 statements is done for the sake of conformity. Have you seen that political spectrum graph? It can be boiled down to the following: "Do I support the use of violence, or do I reject it?" Again, this question expects a binary answer. How easy would it be for people to stomach their answer to this question? It's because they feel uncomfortable that they throw in all the fog of left-right paradigms and economics. I think the same thing can be observed with regards to religion.

 

As for me and your question, God doesn't exist because the concept of God is self-contradictory. I don't "follow" this conclusion any more than I follow the myriad of self-contradictory propositions that exist out there. "There's no such thing as truth," anyone? I call myself an atheist whenever I'm talking to people without much experience in philosophy. I do it for the sake of conformity and I don't pretend otherwise.

[Josh F]

There are different types of Athesim, (cause we're all so divided), what type Athesim do people follow here?  and what types of Athesim are there?

One type of atheism, many atheists with many other ideas.  Statist atheists, cake loving atheists, surfin atheist.  None of them believe there is any evidence for the theory of God.

[cynicist]

I see four variations on the existence of god. 

 

Theist - I know it's true and I'm certain.

 

Agnostic - I don't know and it is impossible to be certain either way.

 

Soft Atheist - I don't know but it's a possibility.

 

Hard Atheist - I know it's false and I'm certain.

 

I see a soft atheist as someone who doesn't believe in god but also doesn't possess the philosophical principles required to say confidently that no god exists. I have some respect for this position because doubt is healthy and certainty without philosophy is hard. Agnostics recognize how ridiculous religious tradition is but want to preserve their irrational belief in god, so they just hide in the idea that we will never know. This is a cowardly position and one that I have taken in the past. After considering the information Stef put out there I'm firmly in the hard atheist position, his book (Against the Gods?) is particularly good.

[LanceD]

Something I've mentioned in other related threads is that I think we have a shortage of good terminology. As far as the big three religions and their definition if a God I'm a hard line atheist. As far as I'm concerned those beliefs are a joke and I feel terrible for anyone trapped in that mind set.

 

However my atheism doesn't prevent me from considering ideas that are spiritual or religious in nature. Ideas proposed that can be supported with rational arguments really interest me. Two examples are Dr. Amit Goswami's ideas on remote consciousness and Some of the shamanism from the Amazon. Neither is a religion but both touch upon things outside the physical to varying degrees and they hold much interest to me.

 

So where does this put me on the spectrum of atheism?

[GRosado]

Here are different typse of Atheism and Religion I got it from Joe Rogans Facebook Feed...JOE YOU ROCK!

 

I would Subistute the Word Beliefe for Personal Experience (or Non Personal Experience). Some people Experience a Higher sense of Awareness that others do not, they call this God...Others that do not Experience this Experience say there is No God...

 

I would think that before I can say God does Not Exist (or Exists), I would have to be really clear on the Deffinition of what God "IS", and I would also have to have a Deffinition on what Existance "IS" as well. There are 2 Things...1 is God and 2 is Existance...

 

I am going to try and Download the Mp3's Stephan has done on Atheism and Existance....I want to truly Understand his Understanding by his deffinition of these 2 terms....

This chart doesn't have the middle ground which is Deism. The Knowledge levels are Gnostic or Agnostic & the levels of belief are Theist, Deist & Atheist.

[ashesmi]

This chart doesn't have the middle ground which is Deism. The Knowledge levels are Gnostic or Agnostic & the levels of belief are Theist, Deist & Atheist.

 

Which system of BELIEF is RIGHT?

[Culain]

This chart doesn't have the middle ground which is Deism. The Knowledge levels are Gnostic or Agnostic & the levels of belief are Theist, Deist & Atheist.

 

 

Here's some terminology

 

-Theist:

The, theos = God. ist= belief in

"Belief in God"

 

-Deist:

Deus= God. ist= belief in.

"Belief in God"

 

-Atheist:

a= without/absent. the, theos= God. ist= belief in.

"Without a belief a in God"

 

Theist= Deist.

---

 

-Gnostic:

Gnost= knowledge claim

ic= pertaining

"Pertaining to have knowledge claim"

 

-Agnostic:

a= Without

gnost: knowledge claim

ic= pertaining to

 "Pertaining to have no knowledge claim"

 

Agnostic is the middle ground

[GRosado]

Which system of BELIEF is RIGHT?

I don't know

Here's some terminology-Theist:The, theos = God. ist= belief in"Belief in God"-Deist:Deus= God. ist= belief in."Belief in God"-Atheist:a= without/absent. the, theos= God. ist= belief in."Without a belief a in God"Theist= Deist.----Gnostic:Gnost= knowledge claimic= pertaining"Pertaining to have knowledge claim"-Agnostic:a= Withoutgnost: knowledge claimic= pertaining to "Pertaining to have no knowledge claim"Agnostic is the middle ground

Breaking down it's word parts doesn't help anything, what your trying to do is put Deists in the same bad spotlight that the theists are in. What you should do is explain the real differences between them. FunnyBunnyApple Funny = Bunny

[Culain]

Breaking down it's word parts doesn't help anything, what your trying to do is put Deists in the same bad spotlight that the theists are in. What you should do is explain the real differences between them.FunnyBunnyAppleFunny = Bunny

 

Um no, theos and deus are just the words for God(s) in separate languages

Funny and Bunny are from the same language with two different meanings.

 

So the example that should of followed was:

 

Bunny = Lapin (french word for bunny).

 

theos does not mean organized religion.

deus does not mean organized religion.

 

Organized religion is attributed to theos because more people who spoke Greek lived in a organized religion's culture.

[GRosado]

Um no, theos and deus are just the words for God(s) in separate languagesFunny and Bunny are from the same language with two different meanings.So the example that should of followed was:Bunny = Lapin (french word for bunny).theos does not mean organized religion.deus does not mean organized religion.Organized religion is attributed to theos because more people who spoke Greek lived in a organized religion's culture.

Lmao clearly my humor is poor. I wasn't being serious with the funny bunny thing. But seeing as how you didn't disagree with what I said you agree that there are major differences & that simply breaking down the word parts doesn't explain the differences.

[Culain]

What you should do is explain the real differences between them.

 

Sorry my point was that there was no difference between theist and deist, they mean the exact same thing even if people may characterize one to belong with organized religion and the other unorganized religion because of culture.

 

The three viable positions on God are: Theism/Deism, Agnosticism, and atheism.

 

I don't believe Gnosticism can be used because it says you're making a knowledge claim for or against theism. But an Agnostic is the undecided position so it can't fit completely into Theism or Atheism; thus it gets the 3rd spot.

[GRosado]

Sorry my point was that there was no difference between theist and deist, they mean the exact same thing even if people may characterize one to belong with organized religion and the other unorganized religion because of culture.The three viable positions on God are: Theism/Deism, Agnosticism, and atheism.I don't believe Gnosticism can be used because it says you're making a knowledge claim for or against theism. But an Agnostic is the undecided position so it can't fit completely into Theism or Atheism; thus it gets the 3rd spot.

Watch this video so you can learn the differences because your portraying two groups as one when they're not. That's like saying Democrats & Democratic Socialists are the exact same.

[Culain]

My one question with that video (and the most crucial one) which host did not bring up.

 

"What is the difference between a God and a Higher power?"

 

Let's throw out specific religious interpretations of God, like the Abrahamic God.

 

Instead what does "God" mean?

 

The usual definitions you see here are Omnipotence and Omniscience. These terms are self contradictory, they can't exist in our natural understanding of the world. In other words a "higher power".

 

"What is a Higher Power?" Can you define it? I see it meaning the exact same thing as God. I don't see a different method of measuring it.

 

Basically

 

Higher Power/supernatural= God

Deism= Theism

---

So I'm still only seeing 3 positions:

Theism/Deism= Both claim a Higher Power, that has properties outside of our natural world.

Agnostic= Uncertain, lacking evidence, no absolute knowledge claim can be made yet

Atheist= No supernatural, no higher power

 

[rogerhicks]

 

"What is the difference between a God and a Higher power?"

 

This is the central question for me too. 

 

I certainly believe in a "higher power", which I sometimes refer to as "God" or "Providence". Not because I'm absolutely sure one exists, but because I find it necessary and very helpful to do so. 

 

It is fair to say that I have FAITH that it is real. And clearly, the faith I have in Providence has much in common with other people's faith in God. I even refer to it, or address it in prayers, as God myself, because that is the tradition I was brought up it, I suppose. What I do not accept are the ideas about God as laid down in "sacred scripture". Which isn't to say that they are all rubbish. It's the claims to authority (and power) which go with such sacred scripture that I reject.

 

A concept of God (as a higher power) I find extremely useful. What the reality behind that concept - if any - is, I have no idea.

[GRosado]

My one question with that video (and the most crucial one) which host did not bring up."What is the difference between a God and a Higher power?"Let's throw out specific religious interpretations of God, like the Abrahamic God.Instead what does "God" mean?The usual definitions you see here are Omnipotence and Omniscience. These terms are self contradictory, they can't exist in our natural understanding of the world. In other words a "higher power"."What is a Higher Power?" Can you define it? I see it meaning the exact same thing as God. I don't see a different method of measuring it.BasicallyHigher Power/supernatural= GodDeism= Theism---So I'm still only seeing 3 positions:Theism/Deism= Both claim a Higher Power, that has properties outside of our natural world.Agnostic= Uncertain, lacking evidence, no absolute knowledge claim can be made yetAtheist= No supernatural, no higher power

Think about it like this, what is the difference between a deity & God. Nothing, God is just a specific incantation of the Deity & the same goes for higher power. Another example: We have the libertarian party & it is formed by two groups the Minarchists & Anarchists. You could say the Anarchist is a libertarian or the Minarchist is a libertarian but you cannot say the libertarian is an anarchist or the libertarian is a Minarchist. Because then you would be overgeneralizing people & alienate other views. (I hope you understood what I meant by that example cause I feel like that's confusing)You can't throw out the abrahamic definitions for God because that is there concept, Hindus, Animists, Sikhs, etc. Don't believe in God but they believe in their respective deity's. You don't go to a Hindu & say hey you believe in God, you say hey you believe in Brahman. So the concept of God is Abrahamic.Your picking at one similarity & continually pushing it which leads me to believe you're argumentative. The video shows the differences between Agnostic & Gnostic but if you don't want to recognize that whatever but they spell out the differences between Deist & Theist & you just keep picking at one similarity.

[Culain]

Ok this will be my final question here, and it shouldn't too hard. Our short debate was mostly based on "Where would Deism be on this Chart?"

 

Your position is that it is directly placed in the center.

 

My position is that it is the same as Theist on where it stands with the chart.

 

So there would be a Agnostic Deist in the bottom left:

"There MAY be a higher power, but I'm not really sure."

 

and, a Gnostic Deist in the bottom right:

"I believe there is a higher power, and I'm certain of it's existence."

 

"Do either of those quoted positions fall into your belief of Deism?" If not, "Can you offer a defining text/sentence which will describe where Deism stands?"

[GRosado]

Ok this will be my final question here, and it shouldn't too hard. Our short debate was mostly based on "Where would Deism be on this Chart?"Your position is that it is directly placed in the center.My position is that it is the same as Theist on where it stands with the chart.So there would be a Agnostic Deist in the bottom left:"There MAY be a higher power, but I'm not really sure."and, a Gnostic Deist in the bottom right:"I believe there is a higher power, and I'm certain of it's existence.""Do either of those quoted positions fall into your belief of Deism?" If not, "Can you offer a defining text/sentence which will describe where Deism stands?"

I am a Gnostic Deist(why I defend it). Deism is the belief in a higher power/Deity who doesn't intervene in our lives, we reject Mysticism, Organized Religion, Holy Books claiming to be a Deity's revealed word & we believe the deity have us the power to reason. The views differ among deists but I would probably be in between Pandeism & Panendeism.But you said to describe its position. It would be in between Theism & Atheism because it isn't full theism in the sense that it doesn't attribute specific characteristics to the deity & it rejects the mysticism & it isn't full Atheism because they still believe in a deity & don't believe spontaneous order is randomly possible.

[Bulbasaur]

Deism is a subset of theism; they both share the defining characteristic of belief in a deity. They disagree on the qualities attributed to the deity, but this does not put deism somehow 'between' atheism and theism as a separate category. Theism is a broad umbrella that contains all the various types of deities that have been supposed throughout history; atheism is a little island that rejects all of them.

[GRosado]

Deism is a subset of theism; they both share the defining characteristic of belief in a deity. They disagree on the qualities attributed to the deity, but this does not put deism somehow 'between' atheism and theism as a separate category. Theism is a broad umbrella that contains all the various types of deities that have been supposed throughout history; atheism is a little island that rejects all of them.

If we were to keep the picture chart simple Deism would be different but if we we're to break down Theism to the hundreds of different types it might be under its umbrella. So I will concede that it falls under Theism but it is on the very out skirts. I won't refer to myself as a theist though. BTW I read an article talking about the umbrella of theism & that was the prime convincer.

[Culain]

I don't really understand how you can be a gnostic about a deity that does not intervene, there would have to be some evidence of it intervening for you for you to feel certain about. In my teenage years I would of classified myself as a agnostic deist, I had this thought that God was dead or left us to build another planet in the universe. But the thing was, I just had no evidence to support that idea. I could not logically sustain it and switched to atheist.

 

Sure the earth and human life may be very complex and we definitely don't have anywhere near all the answers but i don't don't think that's a good enough reason to think, "complexity=higher power".

 

If you've ever watched the short flick "iPencil" it gives a basic understanding that something as simple as a man-made pencil is incredibly complex to make, there may only be a handful of people in the whole world who could walk you through all of the 100+ steps/

 

We don't have to understand how everything works; instead of creating answers (higher power) I think it's best to be gnostic about what we DO KNOW.

 

A modest position for Anarchists.

[GRosado]

I don't really understand how you can be a gnostic about a deity that does not intervene, there would have to be some evidence of it intervening for you for you to feel certain about. In my teenage years I would of classified myself as a agnostic deist, I had this thought that God was dead or left us to build another planet in the universe. But the thing was, I just had no evidence to support that idea. I could not logically sustain it and switched to atheist.Sure the earth and human life may be very complex and we definitely don't have anywhere near all the answers but i don't don't think that's a good enough reason to think, "complexity=higher power".If you've ever watched the short flick "iPencil" it gives a basic understanding that something as simple as a man-made pencil is incredibly complex to make, there may only be a handful of people in the whole world who could walk you through all of the 100+ steps/We don't have to understand how everything works; instead of creating answers (higher power) I think it's best to be gnostic about what we DO KNOW.A modest position for Anarchists.

I'm going to respond let me first say I think I took this post way off topic & is it wise if I or you make a new thread? So you ask how could you be Gnostic about a Deity that doesn't intervene. There is a simple experiment that can be performed by anyone. Simply pray/meditate to the deity & ask him for something whether it is tangible or intangible & you will see that you don't receive what you asked for. You could ask for your family member to get better but they still die or you could ask for a Bugatti & all you get is pocket lint. Also I didn't differentiate personal intervention & divine providence. Divine Providence would be the deity making stars explode or the earth rumble or removing gravity. Personal intervention would be the deity giving you a full head of hair or a new car or curing your disease.Also I wouldn't say that complexity alone keeps me believing in a deity but also a rejection of complexity at random.