FOO Issue

[NigelW]

Hello,

 

I'm a 23 year old trying to save and pay off debt. The only person that I am still around from my FOO is my sister who is my roommate. She was looking for a place to get a foothold in another province to start making money, so I obliged. Before she moved in with me 6 months ago, I had just started to attend therapy and everything seemed to be improving. Her presense has started to bring up a lot of feelings from my childhood. We have on occasion gotten into disagreements about financial and emotional boundaries. I've been paying for her share of the rent, bills, and bus passes for 3 months.

 

I brought this up with her and she avoided and made excuses like, "I hate being poor" and, "I just need a higher paying job."

Financially I am capable of supporting myself but I feel helpless when dealing with my sister. I feel sometimes like she is a child and refuses to take responsibility.

 

I know that I am not initiating force by leaving, but I also do not want it to be a way of counter domination with abandonment as we both suffer from abandoment issues, which she prefers not to talk about.

 

Additionally, I feel like her presence is interfering with my job. The stress of not being able to save and falling further into debt because she is unwilling to discover a way of working it out.

 

Has anyone been in a similar situation? How do you get out?

 

Thank you for reading my post and feel free to drop a comment or suggestion.

[Ruben Zandstra]

Hi Nigel,

 

Sounds like a nightmare scenario to me, I'm very sorry this is your situation. 

 

Is there any objective possibility for her to go back to your parents place, some other familymember, or somehow get a temporary roof over her head?

This is an estimation you could make for yourself - and might want to check out on your own-  if she is making you carry a double burden without being consciously troubled by that. 

 

Could you explain what you mean by "counter domination by abandonment"? I understand it would be extremely hard to just tell her to leave, period. But I don't understand how it would be an act of domination?

[NigelW]

Hi Ruben,

 

There are places that she could go. She could move back to where she was originally which is out of the question. Another option is for her to move out on her own. We've discussed this several times but she doesn't seem inclined to do so.

 

My father left when I dropped out of school. He left when I needed him the most. I don't want to be like my father. Let me correct myself, it wouldn't be an act of domination, but leaving helpless and dependant children to fend for themselves is not a neutral act. Why do I think that she is helpless?

[Ruben Zandstra]

Hi Nigel,

 

There's a false dichotomy lurking there I think.

The choice you present yourself with seems to be that you will either have to keep on carrying your sisters burdens indefinitely, or that you will become like your father.

That's not particularly fair towards yourself. You will not be abandoning her by telling her to leave.

Quite the contrary, you'll be urging her to get a life of her own. And if she knows how lucky she is to have a brother like you then she will make sure to remain being close to you.

Or do you think she might make a point of abandoning you when you ask her to leave?

 

 

Chiwoojo's advice is great I think: If I were you I would certainly focus on your relationship with your sister with your therapist.

[NigelW]

@chiwoojo

 

     I've expressed my need for financial security and how I felt. She reacted with indifference and irritation. I cut down my costs to make ends meet and I still feel guilt. I don't know that I want children, but I would like to be secure.

 

     Thanks for the advice, I will make a point of bringing this up again, at my next session. I have discussed this before with my therapist and I've thought about it myself, maybe she is unable to take care of herself without me.

 

@Ruben

 

     I think I see it (false dichotomy) too, thanks for pointing it out. I'm not sure if it's a fear of being like my father but I am afraid. A waterfall of critical questions flood my mind when I think of telling her to leave.

 

     I've considered leaving the debt issue for now and meeting my need for financial security, which would be a minimum of her paying her share of the rent, utilities, and food.

 

     If I can convince her to meet that basic need then she can gain some breathing room to take responsibility. The reason I say that is because she has expressed her fear of telling me that she can't pay her share. I could be wrong but it seems to fit. But in terms of debt, whether or not she pays me back, it may be the smartest money I've ever spent.

 

     What do you think?

[Ruben Zandstra]

It might help to take some time and write those critical questions down, the ones that are overwhelming when you consider your options.

By doing so things might get a more tangible shape instead of just being a complete waterfall as you mention, and the issue can be examined rationally.

 

I think the practicalities you mention are mere details, what happens to her current debt is most likely going to be pretty inconsequential to you when you look back at it ten or twenty years from now. It would be decent of her to pay it back if she ever gets a chance. I wouldn't spend time waiting for it to happen. That time would be another thing taken away from you. She has pretty much defaulted on you, in multiple ways, is what I get from what you are saying. 

 

What kind of fundamental resolution you make about your arrangements might be more important from a future standpoint. 

[NigelW]

I took your suggestion and wrote down the questions. The main question or criticism is, "how will you afford to move around." I have one more college semester remaining that is coming up in January and my expenses, although low, are certain to take a hit from me reentering the college life. Also, I think if the relationship with my sister is impacting my capacity to have conversations with healthier people, then I would say I would find away out regardless of the cost. I'm having trouble appreciating the future standpoint. I've not been in this type of situation before and I'm lacking direction and certainty. I feel lost.

 

The next question is, "how will your sister survive without you?" In thinking about why I chose to allow my sister to stay with me I have come down to two questions, which may be an incorrect way of looking at it, but let me know what you think.

 

     1. She is capable of being a responsible adult, which means she knows that she is hurting me financially.

 

     2. She is incapable of being a responsible adult. She is unwilling or unable to accept that she is hurting me financially.

 

If I choose to allow this to go on I am permitting it. If I leave, then I am not allowing it to go on. I still wonder why I chose to allow my sister to live with me versus finding another roommate. I've considered the possibility that I was trying to avoid finding another person to live with me or downsizing. That sounds inherently manipulative and lazy, I realize that now and I want it to stop.

 

If anyone could share their story of deFooing, that would be of great value to me.

 

Thank you

[Lians]

Hey Nigel, I can completely sympathise with the difficulty of your situation. What a terrible position to be in. The first thought that popped up in my head while reading your first post was: Aren't you enabling her unsustainable behaviour? The longer you support her, the tougher it will be for her to find a sustainable job later on. Judging from your replies, you seem to have considered this possibility.

 

My father left when I dropped out of school. He left when I needed him the most. I don't want to be like my father. Let me correct myself, it wouldn't be an act of domination, but leaving helpless and dependant children to fend for themselves is not a neutral act. Why do I think that she is helpless?

 

This part felt somehow important to me. Is it possible that having your sister leave your place will cause you to re-experience the feelings you felt when you father left you? I'm just guessing here, since I don't know if you've dealt with these feelings with your therapist.

 

When I first considered cutting off my family from my life, I was on the fence about my sister. Just to give you some context, she's one year younger than me (21), so she can take care of herself. I could see all the damage my parents had done to her mental and physical health. It took a while, but I finally decided to talk to her. I brought up how our parents treated us as kids and she called me selfish and ungrateful. She refused to talk about this any further. That was all the clarity I needed. I knew I couldn't help her and staying around would have caused her even more pain. I guess what I'm suggesting is to be honest with her about your feelings. She seems to ignore you every time you bring up these topics. What feelings do her reactions invoke in you? Tell her about them. Here's a podcast that might be helpful:

 

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_837_DeFOO_and_the_Christian_Channel.mp3

[NigelW]

     If I continue to engage with her I am saying that her behavior is acceptable. I certainly see how that could be a form of enabling. She is aware that I have been asking fundamental questions about the family and has expressed regret for what she did to me when we were children, which consisted of verbal abuse. I gave her my sympathy and assured her that I am working on myself. I not innocent either, I was verbally abusive and I’m still dealing with those feelings. I don’t suppose it’s manipulative to firmly say that I need security in this relationship and by you not paying your share of the living expenses I feel insecure and heartbroken? It could be that I am addicted to those feelings and that I am already experiencing them. That would be a very helpful revelation.

 

     On the other hand, it could be quite possible that you could be on the money. The next session with my therapist is on Wednesday. I will bring it up, thank you. I’m so sorry that your sister reacted to you in that way. My sister and I are around the same age, I’m 23 and she’s 24. How long ago did you decide to deFoo from your sister?

    

     Thank you for the podcast suggestion, it was helpful!

[Lians]

     On the other hand, it could be quite possible that you could be on the money. The next session with my therapist is on Wednesday. I will bring it up, thank you. I’m so sorry that your sister reacted to you in that way. My sister and I are around the same age, I’m 23 and she’s 24. How long ago did you decide to deFoo from your sister?

 

Thank you. I haven't deFOO'd yet. I'll do that when I'm in therapy since it's going to bring up a lot of emotional turmoil. I've reduced my contacts with her to once every 2-3 months or so. I realized I wasn't happy when she was around me about 3 years ago. We had that conversation 2 years ago.

 

When I look back, she often joked about me becoming successful and taking care of her. There was more to it than the joke though. I always felt uneasy when she mentioned it. I remember Stef saying that in an abusive family, men become aggressive and women codependent. There's no way I'm going to let my sister move in with me though. That would be such a dramatic decrease in my happiness. The only certain thing I know about your situation is that you have a good reason for keeping her around. The alternative would be much worse. You probably have some kind of disaster scenario in your mind that would unfold if you kick her out of your place. This might be the reason why I felt your father (the one in your mind) could be present in the picture. I couldn't put it into words in my first reply. A conversation with your therapist should clear this up. Let us know how it goes!

[NigelW]

Hello,

 

Here’s an update after a rather disorienting yet relieving therapy session. I will just talk about the session, but there were a few interactions that I had with my sister prior that were significant. If you’d like to know more about those, just ask.

 

The session consisted primarily of a role play. I was taking my sister’s perspective and my therapist was playing me. I found it odd how easily I slipped into the role. But soon enough we soon uncovered a memory.

 

I remember being about 14 or so, which was a short while before my father left my mother. Whenever my sister would go out with friends, my father told me to go out and make sure that she got home safely. I remember spending up to 3 hours, after school, looking for her at one point. We called the police and I’m not sure what happened after that. The occasion that sticks out most in my mind was when I had to accompany her to the local youth club. The people there were trouble and I sensed it. There were other girls there who had physical scars and were looking to start a fight. They insulted me and were starting to pick on my sister. My sister was frightened and so I told her that we had to leave. The group of girls followed us out and walked down the street behind us. My sister turned around and started to swear at which point I felt doomed because I was responsible for bringing my sister home.

 

There were little words exchanged after the initial insult and my sister stood in front of her. The girl swung and hit her in the jaw. The rage and helplessness I felt in that moment was unprecedented. Never wanting to hit a girl I growled and shouted at the two girls. My sister and I walked home. I felt guilty and sad. I had failed to keep my sister safe and there was nothing I could do. I got home and I couldn’t stomach telling my father this, but the signs were evident. (I can’t remember my parents’ reaction or even if my father was there). I would go out on a limb and say that my mother’s reaction would have been disbelief.

 

The ordeal has left me stricken with anxiety and guilt. But, in my therapy session today I said what I wanted to say to my father for over a decade, “do it yourself!”. If you’re wondering about the significance of this, I never spoke back to my father. That usually led to spankings.

 

My therapist has suggested that if I can't get through to my sister that moving out is a valid option, which could be in as soon as next month.

 

Thank you for reading.

[Lians]

This sounds like a pretty major breakthrough. Congratulations! Is it reasonable to say that you had assumed the role of a father with regards to your sister? When you're 14, you're not responsible for protecting your siblings. You have very little capacity to that (both legal and physical). That's the job of the parents.

[Ruben Zandstra]

Hi Nigel,

 

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing. 

 

So, if you ask yourself "how will your sister survive without you?", I wonder if that is really a question that originates from within you? Out of a genuine interest that is?

It is evident that your sister benefits from you asking yourself whether she will survive. It is also evident how your father demanded you to feel responsible for her survival.

But it is not so evident why you should give shit what these people demand from you.

They have been blackmailing and threatening you by appealing to virtues that they do not possess themselves.

[Lians]

It is evident that your sister benefits from you asking yourself whether she will survive. It is also evident how your father demanded you to feel responsible for her survival.

But it is not so evident why you should give shit what these people demand from you.

They have been blackmailing and threatening you by appealing to virtues that they do not possess themselves.

 

Excellent points. I have very early memories of my parents telling me I should always take care of my sister. They also told me I should personally deal with anyone that bullies her in school. When I look back, it's quite funny that these big, strong, knowledgeable adults relied on a kid to do their job.

[NigelW]

Thanks Lians! Yes, I think that I had taken that role. To have this made conscious is a load off my mind.

 

I do have a disaster scenario that plays out in my mind. It always ends up with my sister convincing an authority figure to screw me over or assault me. I know now that I have this tendency to take the role of a parent with people who are manipulative. But it is my responsibility to become conscious of it and know when to say, ‘do it yourself!’

 

Thank you for the comment, Ruben! I want to solidify that in my mind, that it is not my responsibility to take care of her. But I feel like I can’t until I’ve moved out, which is quite certain to happen. Seeing the lack of reciprocity has been very instructive.

 

I feel that there are other things I could tangent off of this experience. But, it may be better to take my therapist’s advice and search for another apartment.

 

Thank you so much for your kind words and taking the time to respond. I hope that I can return the favor in the future!