Body Building & looking good.

[aFireInside]

http://youtu.be/Z4OJAoD64mM

 

Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian also known as Zyzz.  He died a few years ago but he had an interesting philosophy…

He used to be the kid skinny introverted kid who sat in the back of the room. He decided to get into body building I would say he became obsessed with aesthetics. He got big mussels. He gained followers. He partied and got allot of women.

 

He became an icon:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/i78z.jpg/'>
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

 

Is this healthy?

 It’s hard to say no because before no one listened to him he had no respect. He had to become ultra-masculine to get women to notice him and men to respect him.  

Yes, he is shallow and acts like a narcissist.

But can we really blame this man, he turned his world around..

 

Can lifting weights for aesthetics and attention be unhealthy ?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Shavershian

[David Lozes]

Can lifting weights for aesthetics and attention be unhealthy?

 

Yes. Weight lifting can be rewarding. Rewarding experiences can become addicting, and other aspects of one's life can suffer from neglegence.

 

What prompts your interest in this area?

[wdiaz03]

A friend asked me recently, "Do you go to the gym because its healthy, or because of the aesthetics". I have to admit that the question was interesting and made me pause to think.

 

I have been weightlifting for 20years, usually every week. never more than 2 weeks off or so.

 

 

If a person is lifting weights merely to look good with complete disregard to health they will engage in unhealthy behavior like "steroids" and Heavy lifting. For what it seems Zyzz was into this stuff.

 

Over the years at gyms I've seem my share of similar guys doing this type of stuff. I've seen a Bicep torn in half and a Pectoral muscle also torn in half. The guy with the torn pectoral had a body like Zyss and bench pressed a lot of weight. A shame because he will never have the look he so valued.

 

On the other hand, if lifting weights was healthy but produced no physical change on your body, would I still do it? I really can't say for sure. I certainly do physical activity that has minimal effect on the external body but I consider fun and healthy.

 

I concluded that to me the gym was something I did instead of seating in front of the TV or in the computer. I sit all day at my job, so I have grown accustomed to giving my body the physical activity that i think it should get to stay healthy. I'm of the believe that "That that is used grows, if its not used it stifles". I see the physical changes from lifting weights as an added bonus. I currently lift weight to remain active, not to grow any more muscle, I don't expect to get any bigger and I'm ok with that.

 

3 times per week for little less than an hour lifting weights while listening to stef is actually fun for me.

 

Sorry for the rant, but wanted to give you a little background before I give you my opinion.

 

I don't think what Zyzz did was healthy. 1) the steroids and unhealthy lifting that people like him get involve with. 2) it seems like he was looking for an external solution to an internal problem.

He had no respect because he was skinny. he was merely seeking the respect of people that put physical looks first.

He didn't turn his world around he just joined the shallow people that rejected him in the first place.

 

Tragic story.

.

[masonman]

As a result of all the government BS surrounding steroids, the real data of their side effects on humans are far from well understood.

 

"he was merely seeking the respect of people that put physical looks first"

 

This is most people. To some extent it is everybody, everybody interprets quite a lot from somebody's appearance.

 

"A shame because he will never have the look he so valued"

 

What do you mean? As far as I know those sorts of injuries aren't permanently debilitating, Layne Norton got a pec tear a while ago and hes back in the gym 100 percent now.

 

"Can lifting weights for aesthetics and attention be unhealthy?"

 

Unhealthy in what way? I mean, he clearly had a passion for something, he inspired thousands of people to start exercising in some way or another. I don't think he was a pinnacle of health, but I dunno, he had a purpose. At what point to you go for what makes you happy instead of doing what others tell you is healthy? I think turning himself into a beautiful male brought him joy. I know I'd feel pretty awesome if I looked like that.

[Wuzzums]

He died because of an undiagnosed congenital heart disease. If you're under the impression that an unhealthy lifestyle and Zyzz's physique go hand in hand you must not have done your research. The discipline alone required in bodybuilding is amazing and lifting weights is the easy part. 30% weightlifting, 70% diet and rest... very, very strict diet and rest. Powerlifting is different, but Zyzz was no powerlifter. Don't be fooled by all the scare stories.

 

His actual self was a bit different than what he put out as "Zyzz". He started like most kids do, wanting the things other people have. People that are perceived as "better". So he started bettering himself then he realized that the promised boon he so wished wasn't that great in the first place, in fact it was far bellow him. The 4chan board that made him famous, /fit/, is in fact full of people that follow this narrative. But where others just became disenchanted and depressed, Zyzz just accepted it and somehow enjoyed it which is why people followed him. From his posts alone you can see the contempt he had for people, shallow people anyway. He always said that you could get away with anything if you're just good looking.

 

Bettering yourself will always garner admiration and hatred from others and the guy loved it.

[Pepin]

Exercise is quite good for you, and body-building is as well. To me, it is kind of like if you are going to exercise, you ought to choose according to the results you want, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to shape your body. There is a lot of psychology that goes with appearance, and looking good is something to be preferred and has measurable positive impacts on social interactions.

 

I'd argue that it is an Aristotelian mean though. There are all these starvation diets that people will go through to get their abs to show, which I think is unhealthy. I also have a difficult time understanding and justifying the professional side of it, much in the way I can't understand the point of professional baseball.

 

There are also other cases of people becoming obsessed with it which can be bad depending on the reasons. What I mean by this is that a personal trainer has a reason to become obsessed with it and this would be positive, while an ordinary Jane who can't stop thinking about it might be avoiding something in their life. This argument is no different than the general argument against obsession.

[aFireInside]

Thanks you for all your replies.

 

I'm interested in this because I  do weight lifting and also running something that doesn't really give you good looks 

but I was wondering if the hunt for aesthetics is unhealthy.

 

 

 

 I'm aware of the reasons why he died, i did post the link to the wiki that explains that.

[wdiaz03]

As a result of all the government BS surrounding steroids, the real data of their side effects on humans are far from well understood.

 

"he was merely seeking the respect of people that put physical looks first"

 

This is most people. To some extent it is everybody, everybody interprets quite a lot from somebody's appearance.

 

"A shame because he will never have the look he so valued"

 

What do you mean? As far as I know those sorts of injuries aren't permanently debilitating, Layne Norton got a pec tear a while ago and hes back in the gym 100 percent now.

 

"Can lifting weights for aesthetics and attention be unhealthy?"

 

Unhealthy in what way? I mean, he clearly had a passion for something, he inspired thousands of people to start exercising in some way or another. I don't think he was a pinnacle of health, but I dunno, he had a purpose. At what point to you go for what makes you happy instead of doing what others tell you is healthy? I think turning himself into a beautiful male brought him joy. I know I'd feel pretty awesome if I looked like that.

 

Are you arguing that steroid use has no bad side effect? Maybe, but there's something I find intriguing about people who go the extra mile for the quick fix, the steroids the botox and surgery.

 

I myself have no interest on the stuff even if it makes me look like Arnold with no ill side effects. to each their own.

 

I'm talking about people that put appearance as a big percentage of a person value. You are taking my comment to the extreme. where someone should not judge a book by its cover. Of course we do but whether one has 5% body fat or 15%? It almost becomes a sort of body dis morphia like eating disorders.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear about the injuries. I meant complete separation of the muscles. The guy with the torn bicep had to bicep heads. I never got the see the other guy after it healed but the muscle will never look the same.

 

In my experience extreme body building involves heavy lifting. mix that with a steroid high and one can very easily go over the body threshold and cause injury.

 

Unhealthy because It seems there a physiological aspect that should not be ignored. I think that if you are lifting and have to resort to performance enhancing substances it might be worth to examine why you are doing it.

 

To give you an example. I initially looked up to Arnold when I started lifting but over time realized that I person like Jack Lalanne was more worth of my admiration. I don't know if Jack ever took these drugs but what I mean is that I admire a body of say an Olympic athlete more than of a bodybuilder.

[PatrickC]

I do it mainly for health, but I'm happy to see the aesthetics in my body.. What red blooded male wouldn't!

[Wuzzums]

 

 

but there's something I find intriguing about people who go the extra mile for the quick fix, the steroids the botox and surgery.

 

I dunno, I wouldn't put steroids up there. They're anything but a quick fix. There's an upper limit to how much muscle a human can pack on and no matter how hard you train and how strict your diet is you won't be able to go over that threshold. The body can produce so much testosterone but with steroids you could go over that limit. But it's anything but easy, it's like trying to fill a glass of water that's riddled with holes halfway up.

 

There's a reason why there are bodybuilding contests and natural bodybuilding contests. The former accepts steroid use and is a lot more hardcore. And with all this rampant steroid use and considering how bad steroids are wouldn't we see cases upon cases of steroid induced illnesses? But there aren't. Most injuries are caused directly by stupidity from what I've seen and a need to out-perform the next guy.

[wdiaz03]

I dunno, I wouldn't put steroids up there. They're anything but a quick fix. There's an upper limit to how much muscle a human can pack on and no matter how hard you train and how strict your diet is you won't be able to go over that threshold. The body can produce so much testosterone but with steroids you could go over that limit. But it's anything but easy, it's like trying to fill a glass of water that's riddled with holes halfway up.

 

There's a reason why there are bodybuilding contests and natural bodybuilding contests. The former accepts steroid use and is a lot more hardcore. And with all this rampant steroid use and considering how bad steroids are wouldn't we see cases upon cases of steroid induced illnesses? But there aren't. Most injuries are caused directly by stupidity from what I've seen and a need to out-perform the next guy.

 You wouldn't? Do you also put Hard drugs with steroids too? after all relative to the number of drug users they are not dropping like flies either. There's also the issue of quality, where would you get the steroids? from the big guy at the gym? What if he is giving you horse hormones? Just like with illegal drugs, chances are you will be putting crap in your body.

 

I don't know what your experience is with weight lifting, but steroids ARE a quick fix, the average joe can build muscle in a matter of months. But just as easy as it comes it goes. That which comes easy is little valued. When you get use to the rapid results you don't commit to a lifestyle of lifting. People stop lifting and they deflate usually unevenly. I have seen it. Even friends. most recently my neigbor told me he did a cycle. He built muslce fast, but now stopped training. These people make amazing gains. then they stop and deflate. A guy I saw at the gym desapeared for a few months. Next time I saw him I could not recognize him but for the tattoo on his shoulder. Deflated and now with liver issues.

 

I have nothing scientific but only imperical evidence. So take this for what is worth.

 

Why would the average person need to build muscle beyond the natural human limit?

 

I could be wrong, but I see the body as a complex chemical factory that even science has a hard time understanding. Any artificial unbalance compounds side effects that one cant even imagine. So I respect the body, I don't mess with it at a chemical level. but if you think differently you are welcome to try anything you want.

[Wuzzums]

 You wouldn't? Do you also put Hard drugs with steroids too? after all relative to the number of drug users they are not dropping like flies either. There's also the issue of quality, where would you get the steroids? from the big guy at the gym? What if he is giving you horse hormones? Just like with illegal drugs, chances are you will be putting crap in your body.

 

I don't know what your experience is with weight lifting, but steroids ARE a quick fix, the average joe can build muscle in a matter of months. But just as easy as it comes it goes. That which comes easy is little valued. When you get use to the rapid results you don't commit to a lifestyle of lifting. People stop lifting and they deflate usually unevenly. I have seen it. Even friends. most recently my neigbor told me he did a cycle. He built muslce fast, but now stopped training. These people make amazing gains. then they stop and deflate. A guy I saw at the gym desapeared for a few months. Next time I saw him I could not recognize him but for the tattoo on his shoulder. Deflated and now with liver issues.

 

I have nothing scientific but only imperical evidence. So take this for what is worth.

 

Why would the average person need to build muscle beyond the natural human limit?

 

I could be wrong, but I see the body as a complex chemical factory that even science has a hard time understanding. Any artificial unbalance compounds side effects that one cant even imagine. So I respect the body, I don't mess with it at a chemical level. but if you think differently you are welcome to try anything you want.

 

You can get steroids from a pharmacy, they're sometimes even prescribed for older people. I heard nothing but good tales about steroid use from elder folk. Not to mention people with abnormal low level of testosterone.

 

If a young healthy person uses steroids then yeah, you could argue it's a quick fix, but they still have to work for it (admittedly not as hard). But in some people it just replaces that which is missing ie a young male's level of testosterone. A 40 year old natural bodybuilder will never become as muscular as he would've been in his 20s.

 

You mentioned the guy with liver issues that deflated. Doubt it's related to steroid use. In certain liver issues no amount of weightlifting, steroids and diet can help you put on muscle. And a couple of months is time enough, liver disease or not, to lose all muscle gained naturally or otherwise.

[wdiaz03]

You can get steroids from a pharmacy, they're sometimes even prescribed for older people. I heard nothing but good tales about steroid use from elder folk. Not to mention people with abnormal low level of testosterone.

 

If a young healthy person uses steroids then yeah, you could argue it's a quick fix, but they still have to work for it (admittedly not as hard). But in some people it just replaces that which is missing ie a young male's level of testosterone. A 40 year old natural bodybuilder will never become as muscular as he would've been in his 20s.

 

You mentioned the guy with liver issues that deflated. Doubt it's related to steroid use. In certain liver issues no amount of weightlifting, steroids and diet can help you put on muscle. And a couple of months is time enough, liver disease or not, to lose all muscle gained naturally or otherwise.

 

You keep moving the bar. Now you talk about steroids prescribed by a doctor and monitored by a doctor? So now its about good tales from those people?

 

Now you agree about the quick fix, and not having to work as hard. why does a 40 year old need or wants to be more muscular than he otherwise would be naturaly?

 

So you doubt it was steroids that caused that guys liver damage? Could be. But I rather err on the safe side,

[Magnus]

he had an interesting philosophy…

 

What was his philosophy? 

[aFireInside]

What was his philosophy?

the video linked at the top basically sums everything up.sorry you didn't see it

[Wuzzums]

You keep moving the bar. Now you talk about steroids prescribed by a doctor and monitored by a doctor? So now its about good tales from those people?

 

Now you agree about the quick fix, and not having to work as hard. why does a 40 year old need or wants to be more muscular than he otherwise would be naturaly?

 

So you doubt it was steroids that caused that guys liver damage? Could be. But I rather err on the safe side,

 

Why wouldn't the steroids I was talking about not be the steroids that are medically approved? I mean yeah, if you're talking about cheap steroids you buy from the guy down the street then your fear of them is completely founded. But you can apply the same logic to aspirin, or cough medicine, or soda. Of course you should be weary of substances that are nothing like the substances you think you're taking. 

 

I still don't see it as a quick fix. Given the same routine and the same diet to two different healthy people the one with less testosterone will make slower muscle gain. If he takes steroids it'll just make things equal, more equal nonetheless. The routine and diet are still there, the lifelong commitment is still there... or should be there. Botox takes 1 day, plastic surgery takes just a couple of days, steroid induced muscle gain takes months.

 

The levels of testosterone go down physiologically, most evidence point how this is not a good thing. So why would a 40 year old bodybuilder want to be as good as a 20 year old bodybuilder? Why would a 40 year old guitarist want to be as good as a 20 year old guitarist?

[Hannibal]

If his picture on wikipedia is representative, then he didn't even need to use steroids. He looks great, but isn't very big at all. Are the steroids and crazy weights fact or rumour? because he doesn't look like a he did either (although i'm sure lots of people use steroids which don't help them at all).

[aFireInside]

If his picture on wikipedia is representative, then he didn't even need to use steroids. He looks great, but isn't very big at all. Are the steroids and crazy weights fact or rumour? because he doesn't look like a he did either (although i'm sure lots of people use steroids which don't help them at all).

 

 

Steroids make the face change most of the time increasing the size of cheekbones, chin, and nose...

or in other words making someone look super masculine . If you take a look at his pictures when he was young he looked very very skinny almost anorexic.

 

 

His face looks like the face of someone who had allot of testosterone or someone who did steroids 

[Panoptic]

I think this point can be abstracted to:

What is the goodness or badness of aesthetic pleasure?

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with aesthetics in itself. We all like to see things that look nice whether it be art, house decorations, clothing, and our bodies. But I think it is bad for somebody (for themselves, not for others) to only care about looks. For example, when you go looking for a romantic relationship, you can go all for looks and not get very much else out of it except maybe sexual pleasure. But if you care about the functional values then it will be much more rewarding. I think you can look at working out in the same way. You can do it for looks, but it provides so many health benefits that overlooking them would be absurd. If working out only made you look good, then it would just be something to add on to your schedule for your own and other peoples' eye pleasure. If it only made you healthier, it would be foolish not to do it. Just like in a romantic relationship, if a girl/guy you are interested in has good "functional value" it would be foolish not to take that regardless of looks.

 

Also, aesthetics come from the natural state of things. Something that looks good gives your eyes pleasure, just like something that smells good gives your nose pleasure, or something that tastes good gives your mouth pleasure. So how come we get concerned about lust (which comes from eye pleasure) but not about how good another person smells, or how good they taste (LOL), or any other senses? Its not my fault, and I cannot change the fact that, my eyes enjoy another person, or my nose enjoys their perfume, etc. And I know it sounds like I am speaking about some random issue, but my point is that looks aren't a bad thing, but too much of it may be bad.

 

I guess you could make an argument about the reasoning behind wanting to see another human look good. For example, if you are in a romantic relationship with a woman and she has some poster on her wall of shirtless brad pitt or something. I don't know how I would feel, but its really interesting to think about the reasoning for that action. Of course, its definitely not something to become outraged about IMO. We should ask the question, how does seeing a good looking human being register in the brain compared to seeing some inanimate object that looks good. But that is for another time.

 

My final point:

If aesthetics are not taking away from your life then I do not see a problem. I would say don't base your life on it, but its nice to have some. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how this 21-year-old mind sees it right now.

[Lians]

I'm with Extraordinary_rendition on this one. I started with sports when I was 6 and stopped around the time I discovered FDR (19). I started exercising again about a year ago. During those 13 years I did 4 years of aikido followed by competitive 100m sprinting, basketball, football and volleyball. I used to have fantasies about getting back in my previous shape until I realized it would take me about 4 hours of working out/playing sports a day. That's 28 hours a week that I'm not spending on things that bring far more happiness to my life. The idea of the Aristotelian mean applies quite well to this line of reasoning. I settled for a 3-times-a-week routine consisting of strength exercises and a lot of stretching. It keeps me healthy and in shape given how much time I spend in front of the computer.

 

The trouble with people like Zyzz and Chestbrah is that they try to fill the hole created by dysfunction with things that only provide temporary relief. The hole only grows larger that way. I grew up around people like that. I competed against people like that. This kind of behaviour isn't sustainable in the long run. My sprinting coach tore a ligament during a competition and spent the rest of her life looking back on her sprinting days as if they were the best thing that ever happened to her. After that injury, she stopped living in the present. I found that heartbreaking. Take the good bits - physical health, confidence, hard work, dedication, persistence, self-evaluation - and apply them to the creation of sustainable, long-term value in your life. That's my advice. Take it for what it's worth.

[PatrickC]

My sprinting coach tore a ligament during a competition and spent the rest of her life looking back on her sprinting days as if they were the best thing that ever happened to her. After that injury, she stopped living in the present. 

 

You raise an excellent point here, not just the philosophical one of course, but the risk of injury. I am 44 now and acutely aware that any muscle or bone injury i have now will take months to heal, compared to the weeks it would in my 20's. I've spoken with a number of professionals and it is all to common, even with weights that are relatively light for people to overdo it. This is particulary true in the younger 20 somethings who are more likely to withstand smaller injuries, but extend themselves too far, so as to cause themselves a lifetime injury, as Lians described. Always seek professional advice of course.

[Lians]

Steven Summerstone posted a great video on this topic. I could have saved myself some typing! Here it is:

 

[aFireInside]

Steven Summerstone posted a great video on this topic. I could have saved myself some typing! Here it is:

 

 

 

This video helped allot I always felt like this.

I just couldn't describe it .

[Magnus]

the video linked at the top basically sums everything up.

sorry you didn't see it

 

OK, got it.  Thanks.  Now I know what you're referring to. 

 

I watched the video, and I have given it some thought.  I picked out three main elements from his comments:

 

1. He was emotionally abused as a young person, particularly in the form of brutal discouragement, which drained his sense of motivation;

2. The discouragement he experienced was intended (and successful) at damaging his self-concept and fostering a pattern of chronic self-abuse and social submissiveness; and

3. His remedy for this abuse was to pursue the difficult goal of developing an aesthetic physique,

 

His Problem:

"All the haters in my life"

"People told me I couldn't succeed"

"Making fun of me"

 

 

His Solution:

"Make something of myself"

"Stopped getting drunk"

"better myself"

"inspire and motivate each other"

"become driven"

"get respect"

"I changed"

"surround yourself with the right people"

 

I am completely sympathetic to the pain he must have felt.  It sounds like the abuse he experienced was intense, pervasive, repetitive, and profoundly damaging.

 

Is there anything wrong in all this?  Yes -- it's in the abuse he experienced.  It was plainly hideous. 

 

But I submit that he responded the way he did not because he was abused, but because he had internalized the abuse he experienced.  He believed the attacks, and adopted them as his own, and so engaged in self-attack. This, I believe, was the reason he gave for his social submissiveness, and was also the root cause of his pattern of "getting drunk," which is a means of self-obliteration. 

 

I cannot agree that he really expressed a philosophy.  He expressed a personal history of discouragement and motivational undermining, and set about reacting and responding to it for many years after it.  His behavior from that point seems to have been organized around reacting to that abuse, which by puberty had really transformed into self-abuse. 

 

Is there anything ethically wrong in spending that much effort on your physique?  No.  The problem I see is psychological, not ethical.  It appears he was avoiding the root of the problem, which is not that he was abused, but that he had internalized the abuse.  Once you do that, it's very hard to escape it, because you carry the abuser around inside your head.  He constantly felt the need to "better himself" because he truly believed that he needed to, i.e., that he was "lesser," that he was "nothing." 

 

A better solution, I submit, is not to spend your life "proving the haters wrong," but in eliminating the haters from your life.  He touched on this briefly at one point, and when he did, it sounded like the most mature, well-formed part of his thinking and his message -- surround yourself with positive people. 

 

I couldn't agree with that point any more than I do.  The key, however, is to understand that the worst abusers are the ones we let inside our heads and then carry with us. 

 

If someone who was unimportant to me came up and told me that I was a murderer and a robber and a war criminal, it would not affect me emotionally.  I would not feel the need to prove this hater wrong, much less do so for years and years.  It would be virtually impossible for me to internalize that attack because I firmly know it's not true.  People don't get angry or emotional about attacks that are known to be untrue.  I'd know without a doubt that he was delusional, or at best mistaken about my identity. 

 

If I were to take issue with Aziz and his message, I would say that no one actually needs to "prove the haters wrong."  For one thing, the development of a well-proportioned physique doesn't actually refute any of the attacks he experienced, and more importantly, they never really needed to be refuted in the first place.  I'm all in favor of leading a self-directed life full of motivation and surrounded by positive people, but the people who spew hateful, negative, discouraging messages at you, in an effort to browbeat you into a state of social submission, are already wrong, and their attacks can be disregarded in their entirety like the rantings of the crazy guy in my hypothetical who accused me of war crimes.